Chevrolet, Ford, and others may be axing several sedan models soon
10-02-18, 05:56 AM
#31
Lexus Fanatic
The fuel-economy argument, IMO, is at least partly bogus. While it is true that very large, heavy SUVs, or those built off of truck-frames, use a lot of fuel, many smaller ones and crossovers don't. In fact, some of them use as little, or less, fuel than many sedans. That's one reason why they are selling so well.
10-02-18, 06:32 AM
#32
Lexus Fanatic
It's sad but also dangerous that the US are actually taking this turn. Yes, fuel prices are actually low (for us citizens, I still have around 1.9$/liter at my local pump), but they will not stay that low forever.
Some unspecified event could easily reverse this trend, and then, the US carmakers would be in a bad position to react to this evolution, meaning, they would probably disappear all together, due to their already bad financial state.
Also, I can't believe that US consumers don't like cars that can spare them lots of gallons of fuel during their lifetime. So the concurrent products in this field will, very probably, increasingly be asian and european.
In Europe, already, US cars are a thing for eccentrics buyers and have a rather bad (sometimes unjustified) reputation. Especially due to their massive fuel consumption, making them an absolute nightmare at the pump.
Some unspecified event could easily reverse this trend, and then, the US carmakers would be in a bad position to react to this evolution, meaning, they would probably disappear all together, due to their already bad financial state.
Also, I can't believe that US consumers don't like cars that can spare them lots of gallons of fuel during their lifetime. So the concurrent products in this field will, very probably, increasingly be asian and european.
In Europe, already, US cars are a thing for eccentrics buyers and have a rather bad (sometimes unjustified) reputation. Especially due to their massive fuel consumption, making them an absolute nightmare at the pump.
10-02-18, 06:47 AM
#33
Pole Position
Everybody thought the compact pickup market was dead and left it, leaving the Tacoma and Frontier to the market all to themselves. Now everybody is scrambling to get back in. There's a lesson in there somewhere.
Even if the sedan market drops all the way down to 15-20% of the market, there are still a couple million units for automakers to soak up. The Camrys. Accords and Altimas of the world will benefit from fewer players.
Even if the sedan market drops all the way down to 15-20% of the market, there are still a couple million units for automakers to soak up. The Camrys. Accords and Altimas of the world will benefit from fewer players.
10-02-18, 04:55 PM
#34
Lexus Test Driver
And Ford will continue to produce sedans for the international market, sedans which they could easily bring back to the US if they so desired(as they are doing now with the Ranger).
They're still designing and doing R&D on cars. They're just not going to waste production capacity on them in the US while the margins are low and sales are declining. And now with tariffs, they're not even going to import them.
I would bet that they've done their projections and analysis on the cost to bring them back into the US market vs the profits that the small cars are currently eating up(every Focus built and sold in the US could have been a more profitable Escape, etc) and have decided to go with the more profitable option, both short and long-term.
If it doesn't turn out that way, Jim Hackett needs to resign.
They're still designing and doing R&D on cars. They're just not going to waste production capacity on them in the US while the margins are low and sales are declining. And now with tariffs, they're not even going to import them.
I would bet that they've done their projections and analysis on the cost to bring them back into the US market vs the profits that the small cars are currently eating up(every Focus built and sold in the US could have been a more profitable Escape, etc) and have decided to go with the more profitable option, both short and long-term.
If it doesn't turn out that way, Jim Hackett needs to resign.
10-03-18, 08:54 AM
#35
Lexus Fanatic
I bumped this old thread back up to add that Bob Lutz, in his monthly question-and-answer column for Road and Track magazine, said, in the latest issue, that Ford was doing the right thing.....the sedan market in the U.S. is dying. I'm not sure I agree, but I have a tremendous amount of respect for Lutz and his opinions. I, of course, am somewhat biased towards sedans myself (in my youth, I learned to drive on them), so that alone may color my own view a little. Sedans, in my area, do sell, but then, in this enormous new-vehicle market in the D.C. area, where the economy is so good, everything sells. In the real new-vehicle world, though, away from the big-money D.C. and Silicon Valley/Southern California regions, it is probably a different story. And, of course, in rural areas, pickups and SUVs have been the rule for decades.
10-03-18, 08:58 AM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
The fuel-economy argument, IMO, is at least partly bogus. While it is true that very large, heavy SUVs, or those built off of truck-frames, use a lot of fuel, many smaller ones and crossovers don't. In fact, some of them use as little, or less, fuel than many sedans. That's one reason why they are selling so well.
10-03-18, 09:08 AM
#37
Pole Position
And Ford will continue to produce sedans for the international market, sedans which they could easily bring back to the US if they so desired(as they are doing now with the Ranger).
They're still designing and doing R&D on cars. They're just not going to waste production capacity on them in the US while the margins are low and sales are declining. And now with tariffs, they're not even going to import them.
I would bet that they've done their projections and analysis on the cost to bring them back into the US market vs the profits that the small cars are currently eating up(every Focus built and sold in the US could have been a more profitable Escape, etc) and have decided to go with the more profitable option, both short and long-term.
If it doesn't turn out that way, Jim Hackett needs to resign.
They're still designing and doing R&D on cars. They're just not going to waste production capacity on them in the US while the margins are low and sales are declining. And now with tariffs, they're not even going to import them.
I would bet that they've done their projections and analysis on the cost to bring them back into the US market vs the profits that the small cars are currently eating up(every Focus built and sold in the US could have been a more profitable Escape, etc) and have decided to go with the more profitable option, both short and long-term.
If it doesn't turn out that way, Jim Hackett needs to resign.
10-03-18, 09:48 AM
#38
Lexus Champion
I have a sedan and a CUV, and love both of them for different reasons.
The GS has been lots of fun and can seat the 4 of us comfortably, even for long rides, but is also a fun daily commuter. It's not good when loaded up with strollers, coolers, etc.
The Highlander is a great family vehicle and is my wife's daily driver. Obviously it handles nothing like my GS, but I'm not really flinging it around corners with the family (hang on to your sippy cups, kids!). When I look at something like the Highlander versus something like a Camry, I don't feel like I am making a sacrifice by choosing the CUV. I find it to be more comfortable, plus it is roomier, has tons of cargo room, AWD, etc. It also means we can all go out in one car when we have company over.
As for gas mileage, it isn't a fair battle in my house, since the Highlander is a hybrid. My 5 passenger (4, realistically) AWD sedan with 306 hp averages 16-17 mpg. My 7 passenger (6 realistically) AWD CUV with 280 hp averages 28 mpg.
The GS has been lots of fun and can seat the 4 of us comfortably, even for long rides, but is also a fun daily commuter. It's not good when loaded up with strollers, coolers, etc.
The Highlander is a great family vehicle and is my wife's daily driver. Obviously it handles nothing like my GS, but I'm not really flinging it around corners with the family (hang on to your sippy cups, kids!). When I look at something like the Highlander versus something like a Camry, I don't feel like I am making a sacrifice by choosing the CUV. I find it to be more comfortable, plus it is roomier, has tons of cargo room, AWD, etc. It also means we can all go out in one car when we have company over.
As for gas mileage, it isn't a fair battle in my house, since the Highlander is a hybrid. My 5 passenger (4, realistically) AWD sedan with 306 hp averages 16-17 mpg. My 7 passenger (6 realistically) AWD CUV with 280 hp averages 28 mpg.
10-03-18, 10:43 AM
#39
Lexus Fanatic
More realistically the sedan market is dying for US manufacturers in many cases, it has been since the 90's but there are some exceptions. The sedan market is not dying for Japanese and European manufactures, it may not be as big as it used to be but it is not anywhere close to dying.
10-03-18, 01:41 PM
#40
Lexus Test Driver
Don't forget, the Fusion was just Ford adapting the Mondeo to North America. The Taurus probably wouldn't ever be replaced, but all of the current lineup below that has an overseas counterpart.
Basically, if Ford has the resources to completely redesign the aging Focus, Fusion, Fiesta, and Taurus models, why wouldn't they have the resources to adapt the overseas models down the road? In fact, the latter will be advantageous because in the meantime, Ford will make more money by selling profitable CUV's and SUV's instead of sedans. Then when the market shifts, they can bring an already existing line of sedans domestic. I imagine those will be designed to be easier to adapt going forwards.
10-03-18, 03:14 PM
#41
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
dangerous? lol
while suvs may have started as inefficient truck based boxes they now come in all shapes and sizes. compact utility vehicles which sell like crazy here in the u.s. are basically tall hatchbacks the latter which make up the majority of cars in europe. so just as roofs on hatchbacks were raised to make cuvs, they can be lowered again if people really want cramped hatchbacks like europe (i doubt it).
your view that only eccentric europeans have u.s. vehicles which is certainly true for cars like mustangs and camaros but don't forget a lot of the BMWs sold in europe are made where, you guessed it, right in the u.s. of a. same thing with mercedes.
your loathing of the u.s., its auto industry and consumers is palpable, and outdated.
while suvs may have started as inefficient truck based boxes they now come in all shapes and sizes. compact utility vehicles which sell like crazy here in the u.s. are basically tall hatchbacks the latter which make up the majority of cars in europe. so just as roofs on hatchbacks were raised to make cuvs, they can be lowered again if people really want cramped hatchbacks like europe (i doubt it).
your view that only eccentric europeans have u.s. vehicles which is certainly true for cars like mustangs and camaros but don't forget a lot of the BMWs sold in europe are made where, you guessed it, right in the u.s. of a. same thing with mercedes.
your loathing of the u.s., its auto industry and consumers is palpable, and outdated.
10-03-18, 05:06 PM
#42
Lexus Fanatic
If you take the same basic chassis and same basic engine/trans even for a sedan and then lift it, beef it up a little for some off road use, make the vehicle higher it is going to weigh more, be less aerodynamic, will be slower, and will get poorer fuel economy, you can't escape physics, the difference will be less then a truck based SUV but the sedan/car is still going to get better fuel economy, will handle better, weigh less, be quicker.
10-03-18, 05:11 PM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
Basically, if Ford has the resources to completely redesign the aging Focus, Fusion, Fiesta, and Taurus models,
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-03-18 at 05:14 PM.
10-03-18, 05:58 PM
#44
I hope Chevy keeps this line. It would be a shame to obsolete this license plate.
http://www.inventics.com/chevy.jpg
http://www.inventics.com/chevy.jpg
Last edited by riredale; 10-03-18 at 06:04 PM.
10-04-18, 09:45 AM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
It is much more complex than that. Many other factors are also involved, such as engine size, lower weight (many newer models lose weight from lighter materials), transmission efficiency, rolling-resistance of the tires, etc.... Some SUVs are so slick, aerodynamically, that they rival or exceed sedans in that department....the days of nothing but classic, two-box SUVs are gone, though I myself still like the two-box design for interior space efficiency.