Car Chat General discussion about Lexus, other auto manufacturers and automotive news.

If you like crossover SUVs and car-based AWD, here is who you should thank (AMC)

Thread Tools
 
Search this Thread
 
Old 05-05-18, 01:43 PM
  #1  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,293
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Thumbs up If you like crossover SUVs and car-based AWD, here is who you should thank (AMC)





Most of us know that the modern platform with transverse-engines and FWD came from the 1960s-vintage Mini Cooper (first introduced in 1959). But, given that Subaru and Audi, with their Symmetrical and Quattro systems, are generally given credit (and rightly so) for the large-scale development of car-based, full-time AWD, many younger people today are not aware of where the idea of a center differential and car-based AWD actually originated, and where it was first put into production.

In 1970, the struggling AMC (American Motors Corporation) introduced a new compact car....the Hornet (I was in high school at time, and one of my close friend's parents bought him a new one, with few options and a basic three-on-the-tree manual transmission). A smaller, subcompact Gremlin hatchback appeared a year or so later...essentially a Hornet with its trunk and rear end lopped off. The Hornet was replaced, several years later, by a somewhat re-styled and more refined offspring, called the Concord. The Concord was a nice product for the time, but suffered from the image of AMC's troubled past, and was not particularly successful in the marketplace.....until AMC management got the idea to try something different; something that had never been tried before on a production vehicle.

Until then, virtually all 4WD systems were part-time systems that not only required manual-shifting in and out of a separate transfer-case, but also, in some cases, actually stepping out of the vehicle and manually rotating the front wheel hubs to engage or disengage the front wheels (normally, power went only to the rear). The lack of a center differential meant that all four wheels (front and rear) essentially rotated at the same speed, which meant that if there was no surface under the wheels which allowed some slippage, friction on the four tires could cause tire scrub and drive-line / axle-binding when going around dry corners. Plus, of course, these systems were mounted on trucks, truck-based SUVs, and Jeeps, which generally meant a bouncy and noisy ride compared to sedans.

AMC's idea, which was considered quite revolutionary at the time, was to take a Concord sedan or station-wagon, jack it up several inches for extra ground clearance, install a full-time AWD system, and add a center-differential, which used a viscous silicone fluid, to allow the front and rear wheels, in addition to left and right, to all rotate at different speeds without fear of driveline problems or binding. The result was basically get in the car, turn the key, start the engine, and go....you're in AWD from the moment you start up till the moment you shut it off, without any extra shifting or manual locking/unlocking of front hubs. The added height gave you clearance for deep mud and snow, and, instead of bouncing along in a truck (most trucks were uncomfortable back then), you had had the reasonably comfortable ride of a sedan, and, of course, better handling and gas mileage. These raised-suspension, AWD Concords were re-named the Eagle. A smaller version was also tried in the Eagle SX-4, which was based on the AMC Spirit, which replaced the old Gremlin. The first Eagle was introduced in August of 1979, as a 1980 model.

These vehicles were, roughly, fifteen years before their time....which was fulfilled by the 1995 introduction of the first Subaru Outback. They were fairly popular when they were in production, although AMC never did solve its reputation for poor quality-control, and these vehicles, like others from the corporation (and, for that matter, like many other American-sourced vehicles of the time) suffered from shoddy workmanship and sometimes poor engineering. But Subaru and Audi clearly saw the potential benefits of car-based AWD, and, though AMC itself did not survive the 1980s even with Renault and Chrysler ownership, both Subaru and Audi went on to perfect what AMC had started. The result was a vast transformation in the way that most vehicles were designed and built, and, today, crossover, unibody, car-based, center-differential SUVs with AWD essentially rule the market in the U.S., and are forcing conventional sedans and coupes out of the way.

Last edited by mmarshall; 05-05-18 at 01:49 PM.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 01:47 PM
  #2  
Toys4RJill
Lexus Fanatic
 
Toys4RJill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ON/NY
Posts: 31,195
Received 64 Likes on 55 Posts
Default

Looks like a wagon. I don't see any influence in helping make cross-overs popular. I think the Rav4 was the first cross over.
Toys4RJill is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 01:56 PM
  #3  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,293
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Looks like a wagon. I don't see any influence in helping make cross-overs popular. I think the Rav4 was the first cross over.
You are forgetting the first 1995 Outback, which preceded the RAV-4 in the American market by about a year. And I just spent several paragraphs explaining why the AMC Eagle is considered the first true crossover.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 01:59 PM
  #4  
Toys4RJill
Lexus Fanatic
 
Toys4RJill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ON/NY
Posts: 31,195
Received 64 Likes on 55 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
You are forgetting the first 1995 Outback, which preceded the RAV-4 in the American market by about a year. And I just spent several paragraphs explaining why the AMC Eagle is considered the first true crossover.
Rav4 starting production in 94 as a 1995 model. Subaru was just a wagon.
Toys4RJill is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:07 PM
  #5  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,293
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
Rav4 starting production in 94 as a 1995 model. Subaru was just a wagon.
Regardless, when the Eagles debuted in 1980-81, they were unique, and no one else had anything like it. Their pioneering work went on, fifteen years later, to transform the vast majority of vehicle production into what it is today.....car-based, unibody, and FWD/AWD.

Here is a useful article on the subject, which explains it in somewhat more detail than I can:

https://www.allpar.com/amc/eagle.html
mmarshall is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:11 PM
  #6  
Toys4RJill
Lexus Fanatic
 
Toys4RJill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ON/NY
Posts: 31,195
Received 64 Likes on 55 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Regardless, when the Eagles debuted in 1980-81, they were unique, and no one else had anything like it. Their pioneering work went on, fifteen years later, to transform the vast majority of vehicle production into what it is today.....car-based, unibody, and FWD/AWD.

Here is a useful article on the subject, which explains it in somewhat more detail than I can:

https://www.allpar.com/amc/eagle.html
I disagree. I don't think the above had any influence.

Below is an article detailing what they think (and I agree) is the first cross-over.

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/car-m...er-vehicle.htm
Toys4RJill is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:26 PM
  #7  
Hoovey689
Moderator
iTrader: (16)
 
Hoovey689's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 42,304
Received 125 Likes on 83 Posts
Default

The Eagle was sort of the odd-ball precursor to raised wagon/hatches we now know as CUVs, but I agree true CUVs didn't come out until the 90's. Same could be said of hybrids. They can be traced back to points in time during the 1800s and early 1900s, but didn't really come out until the late 90's with the Prius.

Last edited by Hoovey689; 05-05-18 at 02:42 PM. Reason: whoopsie
Hoovey689 is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:34 PM
  #8  
Toys4RJill
Lexus Fanatic
 
Toys4RJill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: ON/NY
Posts: 31,195
Received 64 Likes on 55 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Hoovey2411
The Eagle was sort of the odd-ball precursor to raised wagon/hatches we now know as CUVs, but I agree true CUVs didn't come out until the 90's. Same could be said of hybrids. They can be traced back to points in time during the 1800s and early 1900s, but didn't really come out until the 90's with the EV1 and Prius.
I dunno. I don't see the perception among people that current cross-overs are more raised hatches than they are modified or more car-comfortable SUVs. That is how I view it. I guess you could say a Suzuki Sidekick was a cross-over?
Toys4RJill is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:36 PM
  #9  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,293
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Hoovey2411
The Eagle was sort of the odd-ball precursor to raised wagon/hatches we now know as CUVs, but I agree true CUVs didn't come out until the 90's. Same could be said of hybrids. They can be traced back to points in time during the 1800s and early 1900s, but didn't really come out until the 90's with the EV1 and Prius.
The EV-1 Impact was a true battery/electric, not a hybrid. It did not have a gas engine.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:41 PM
  #10  
Hoovey689
Moderator
iTrader: (16)
 
Hoovey689's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 42,304
Received 125 Likes on 83 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by mmarshall
The EV-1 Impact was a true battery/electric, not a hybrid. It did not have a gas engine.
I meant to just say the Prius. But the had the EV1 on my mind lol. I'll correct the post
Hoovey689 is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:42 PM
  #11  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,293
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
I dunno. I don't see the perception among people that current cross-overs are more raised hatches than they are modified or more car-comfortable SUVs. That is how I view it. I guess you could say a Suzuki Sidekick was a cross-over?

No. Almost all of the American-market Suzuki SUVs (Samurai, Sidekick, Vitara, Grand Vitara) were body-on-frame, not unibody crossovers. Except for the Samurai's notorious tipsiness and roll-over tendency, that's why all of these Suzuki products were better off-road than their RAV-4, CR-V, and similar competition. The Sidekick, of course, was also sold as the Chevy/Geo Tracker. The very last version of the Grand Vitara, though, was a unibody crossover, and shared its design with a couple of small GM crossovers.

Last edited by mmarshall; 05-05-18 at 02:46 PM.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:49 PM
  #12  
Hoovey689
Moderator
iTrader: (16)
 
Hoovey689's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California
Posts: 42,304
Received 125 Likes on 83 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
I dunno. I don't see the perception among people that current cross-overs are more raised hatches than they are modified or more car-comfortable SUVs. That is how I view it. I guess you could say a Suzuki Sidekick was a cross-over?
If it has a hatch and no trunk I personally think of them as the same, so long as it's unibody. But people in general just refer to it as cross-over. I dunno, the lines are so blurred now. If one is not a car person then CUV would be the typical term.

And the first Sidekicks were body on frame. The third generation known as Vitara was a unibody.
Hoovey689 is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 02:55 PM
  #13  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,293
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Hoovey2411
I meant to just say the Prius. But the had the EV1 on my mind lol. I'll correct the post

No problem. I make enough typos myself.
mmarshall is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 03:02 PM
  #14  
BrownPride
Lead Lap
 
BrownPride's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2015
Location: West Coast
Posts: 782
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like on 1 Post
Default

I disagree. This car didn't spur any widespread shift in the market. That car was the first explorer from the '90s.
BrownPride is offline  
Old 05-05-18, 03:07 PM
  #15  
mmarshall
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
 
mmarshall's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Posts: 91,293
Received 87 Likes on 86 Posts
Default

Originally Posted by Hoovey2411
And the first Sidekicks were body on frame. The third generation known as Vitara was a unibody.
As I understand it, the first Vitaras were also BOF. The later ones were a rebadged version of a crossover GM compact SUV.

I dunno, the lines are so blurred now.
Absolutely. No question about it......and they get more blurred all the time. But virtually everything with a unibody and car-based/center-differential AWD goes back to the Eagle, in one form or another. That's the point I'm making with the thread.
mmarshall is offline  


Quick Reply: If you like crossover SUVs and car-based AWD, here is who you should thank (AMC)



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 06:12 AM.