When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
You are incorrectly using a quotation to try to prove your opinion that the GS is ugly. This reference only says that buyers consider styling as a factor of purchase; it does not say that the GS is ugly.
Never have I called the GS "ugly" but if you say so.
Why is it that no one in this thread is allowed their personal opinion that the BMW E60 model is ugly? Whenever someone suggests that they do not find the E60 to be attractive, there is a ganging up and bullying.
Similarly, it seems that no one is allowed to call the GS attractive.
Enough with this "Lexus is ugly" thesis.
Yes, it's horrible. It's a dictatorship isn't it. Not like someone did not call the E60 ugly and the GS was in return was also called ugly? Wait.. no.
I almost purchased this C Class back in 2015 over the 4GS; sometimes I wonder if I should have.
It has a superb combination of just about everything, except for reliability, and I had some bad experiences with Benzes in the past.
Never have I called the GS "ugly" but if you say so.
Yes, it's horrible. It's a dictatorship isn't it. Not like someone did not call the E60 ugly and the GS was in return was also called ugly? Wait.. no.
Ugly is is a strong word. I don’t think either the BMW E60 was ugly nor is the 4GS. I think we are getting away from the main topic focusing on the looks of a car that hasn’t been in production for 8 years now. If some forum members want to call the 4GS ugly, let them. It doesn’t bother me none. I bought my 4GS because I found it reliable, attractive and dynamic. I bought my C63 AMG because I wanted a very fast unsuspecting car that can fly under the radar, but also be driven at ridiculous speeds on demand.
You will always find people looking to try and troll others trying to get under other members skin and irritate them.
So we have a group of people who think the GS is ugly as hell and it’s not selling because it looks horrid and on the opposing side another group of lads who are defending the 4GS saying the car is the perfect balance of many attributes combined into a handsomely styled executive saloon. Ultimately the question is Toyota is ending the production of the EU 4GS, it’s due for a complete from the ground up redesign next year. We haven’t seen any concepts yet. But we know the hard work chassis development is already done and is currently being tested at the German Nurburgring using a old Toyota Crown body in a psychedelic vinyl wrap. Some think Lexus will kill off the GS model and try to move the ES further upmarket. The opposers believe Toyota will debut a sexy GS concept at a upcoming international autoshow and approximately 4 months later debut either another midsize 3 box sedan or low slung 5 door lift back vehicle that will take lexus into uncharted waters.
I almost purchased this C Class back in 2015 over the 4GS; sometimes I wonder if I should have.
It has a superb combination of just about everything, except for reliability, and I had some bad experiences with Benzes in the past.
Mercedes are more reliable than ever. If you own out of warranty, there are few caveats to be concerned about. If it’s a daily driver vehicle the maintenance can be a little expensive especially when compared to Lexus. One of the reasons why I chose a Lexus as my week day car, but I have 3 German and 1 Italian in my garage for special events and nice weather weekend use. German cars are pretty awesome when they run, but when they break the really break the bank. It comes down to each individual owner if dealing with that hassle is worth driving them. Lexus makes a nice alternative to them for people who can’t fathom dumping thousands into their automobile every year.
It's actually being tested using the new forthcoming Toyota Crown sheet metal with a 2" longer wheelbase and six side windows, but it is using the old 4GS' original nine split spoke alloy wheels.
Ugly is is a strong word. I don’t think either the BMW E60 was ugly nor is the 4GS. I think we are getting away from the main topic focusing on the looks of a car that hasn’t been in production for 8 years now. If some forum members want to call the 4GS ugly, let them. It doesn’t bother me none. I bought my 4GS because I found it reliable, attractive and dynamic. I bought my C63 AMG because I wanted a very fast unsuspecting car that can fly under the radar, but also be driven at ridiculous speeds on demand.
You will always find people looking to try and troll others trying to get under other members skin and irritate them.
Two posts about "ugly" shouldn't get the usual people scared about styling critiques. Car Chat is one of the most open forums around. But if people insist on taking criticism of their brand personally, well... it's what it is. IMO Car Chat is not Lexus Chat. You have ES Chat, and GS Chat. Trying to stifle any opinion about Lexus styling smacks of shutting down debate.
Any number of CL members have first hand experiences with Bimmers and other German cars, as you do. Point is; that it's an open discussion. If the slightest "slight" is perceived as some sort of piling on, well it's not Car Chat anymore. I'm surprised that someone doesn't start a "BMWs are ugly thread vs Lexus". But that's too easy and it's easier to jump into existing threads to defend the faith.
So we have a group of people who think the GS is ugly as hell
Not that I have seen. Only a couple of posters say this. It is not "ugly as hell". That's hyperbole. Simple criticism of a car doesn't equal an angry vitriol against the GS. The GS, as I have stated is perfectly good car flawed by its styling and its aging platform and lack of drive train choices. Nothing more. If it's not selling then what is the problem? People were arguing that it was the ES that was the problem. Until I pointed out that the ES is not sold in Europe.
Facts matter. What the issue is, that Lexus fans need to carefully answer the critques instead of constantly making it a "cheerleading" forum. If your brand is secure and able to withstand criticism, then it's not a problem to take some hits and promote it for what it is. Your view is the longer view vs ideology. IMO people should criticize the Germans for relentlessly exploiting their perfomance image while still making generally touchy vehicles that cannot stand long term use. Isn't that Lexus' real image/brand? You won't have those issues?
It's actually being tested using the new forthcoming Toyota Crown sheet metal with a 2" longer wheelbase and six side windows, but it is using the old 4GS' original nine split spoke alloy wheels.
Maybe If Lexus cancels the GS, they will decide to sell the Toyota Crown in North America rebranded as the Toyota Cressida. So ultimately things get even more complicated & we still get the GS in a Japanese domestic market form.
However, just out of interest, back pre-1989, the JDM used to have laws that taxed more heavily vehicles that exceeded 4.7 m in length by 1.7 meters in width; thus Toyota used to make the Crown half a size smaller branded as the Mark Series - this Mark Series would be exported as the Toyota Cressida.
Since the Lexus Division was created, Toyota no longer had the need to export the Mark Series/Cressida, however the Mark Series continues to be developed today as the Mark X.
The Mark X is half a size smaller than the midsize Toyota Crown/Lexus GS, E Class and 5 Series, but it is still half a size larger than the compact Lexus IS - however that makes the Mark X 1.5 sizes smaller than the full size 5LS, so it is unlikely to ever be exported...
Mercedes are more reliable than ever. If you own out of warranty, there are few caveats to be concerned about. If it’s a daily driver vehicle the maintenance can be a little expensive especially when compared to Lexus. One of the reasons why I chose a Lexus as my week day car, but I have 3 German and 1 Italian in my garage for special events and nice weather weekend use. German cars are pretty awesome when they run, but when they break the really break the bank. It comes down to each individual owner if dealing with that hassle is worth driving them. Lexus makes a nice alternative to them for people who can’t fathom dumping thousands into their automobile every year.
We can talk about handbags and wallets but really all of those things are based on style, looks, prestige. You cannot just dissect and surgically remove one factor and claim that a brand runs on its prestige. If that was the case, you would see the Germans making the equivalent of Pontiac Azteks and slapping a roundel or a three pointed star on them and laughing all the way to the bank.
They don't do that do they? We don't have any objective measure of how many 3 series or 5 series are base strippo models. What's being stated here is anecdotal conjecture. Hardly an accurate metric.
Lol. If a buffoon like Jeremy Clarkson wants to parade his "yob culture" for his own benefit and calls the E60 ugly and stupid, he can go look in the mirror every morning to see something ugly and stupid. As you state, his is hardly an objective measure. He also likes Range Rovers and Aston Martins because they happen to be from the home country.
Yes. Handbags and wallets are really based mostly on prestige. Like you mentioned too - you don't even look at your wallet often. If you don't look at it often, why would style matter? It doesn't. People buy the LV wallet for brand and prestige. Like LV wallets and handbags are based on brand - cars are also based on brand. An average luxury consumer will tend to purchase a BMW/Mercedes-Benz over a Lexus because of the brand. IE: Wealthy consumers will most likely spend 10K extra on the BMW/Mercedes-Benz over the Lexus because of the perception of brand.
You really think BMW doesn't slap on a badge to their vehicles and sell them at an overcharged price? There is reason the BMW X1 and X2 exist.
Of course we don't have a metric measurement about how many "stripper" BMW 3 Series are sold. But any logical person would even guess that at least 50% plus of their 100K sales per year on the 3 Series are stripper models. No. What's being stated here about noticing a lot of stripper model 3 Series is an observation of their location of living. It doesn't mean its not a fact - it means its an observation. Here's a better example: why is that the brand new 2014 Lexus IS sold 3 times less cars than the 3 year old 2014 BMW 3 Series? The 2014 Lexus IS tech was miles ahead of the 2014 BMW 3 Series but yet sold less? Answer: Brand.
Your last statement regarding Jeremy Clarkson seems to tilt you. Why does it matter what he says? Its his opinion. You have a right to your opinion. Jeremy Clarkson, other people and I have the opinion to think the E60 BMW ugly. This is why looks are subjective and have a minimal impact on sales. Majority of the sales volume is affected by price, value per dollar and brand. The all play hand-and-hand.
Secondly - why does it tilt you so much that Jeremy Clarkson called the E60 ugly? People didn't get tilted when you called Lexus GS ugly.
Originally Posted by MattyG
Not that I have seen. Only a couple of posters say this. It is not "ugly as hell". That's hyperbole. Simple criticism of a car doesn't equal an angry vitriol against the GS. The GS, as I have stated is perfectly good car flawed by its styling and its aging platform and lack of drive train choices. Nothing more. If it's not selling then what is the problem? People were arguing that it was the ES that was the problem. Until I pointed out that the ES is not sold in Europe.
Facts matter. What the issue is, that Lexus fans need to carefully answer the critques instead of constantly making it a "cheerleading" forum. If your brand is secure and able to withstand criticism, then it's not a problem to take some hits and promote it for what it is. Your view is the longer view vs ideology. IMO people should criticize the Germans for relentlessly exploiting their perfomance image while still making generally touchy vehicles that cannot stand long term use. Isn't that Lexus' real image/brand? You won't have those issues?
Flawed by its styling? Subjective. You think its ugly other people think its good looking. Overall - Lexus' signature grille and L lights are well-received and majority of people think it looks great now. The Lexus UX reaction was good.
Aging platform? You are wrong here. The Lexus GS sits on the New N Platform. The New N Platform was introduced in 2012 with the 2012 Lexus GS which makes it 6 years old as of today. That isn't considered aging.
Here's a fun fact: The F10 5 Series sits on the F01 7 Series platform - the F01 7 Series was introduced in 2009 with its platform. During 2016, the last model year of the F10 BMW 5 Series, the F10 5 Series platform was about 7 years old already. The 2016 Lexus GS was sitting on a 4 year old platform and matching the 5 Series features per feature with a few minor exceptions. Despite the 2016 Lexus GS being newer and cheaper - the older-outdated 2016 F10 5 Series sells nearly doubled the Lexus GS sales. If platform really affect sales volumes, shouldn't the BMW 5 Series in 2016 have crap sales?
People were arguing the Lexus ES taking the Lexus GS sales are talking about US-SALES, not EU-SALES. In the US market, the Lexus ES takes up some of the Lexus GS sales. In the EU-market, the 5 Series and E-Class are on home-turf. The Lexus GS has to sell against two very popular cars in Europe while being in a brand prestige disadvantage. Conclusion: EU-Sales numbers are low for the GS.
You know you are on a Lexus forum right? Being that's the case - you'll get some Lexus-bias replies. Bimmerpost is no difference. You'll get some BMW-bias replies on Bimmerpost. To throw shade by calling Lexus forum posters "cheerleading" is quite an insult because no one is accusing you of cheer-leading for BMW/Mercedes Benz.
Yes. Handbags and wallets are really based mostly on prestige. Like you mentioned too - you don't even look at your wallet often. If you don't look at it often, why would style matter? It doesn't. People buy the LV wallet for brand and prestige. Like LV wallets and handbags are based on brand - cars are also based on brand. An average luxury consumer will tend to purchase a BMW/Mercedes-Benz over a Lexus because of the brand. IE: Wealthy consumers will most likely spend 10K extra on the BMW/Mercedes-Benz over the Lexus because of the perception of brand.
You really think BMW doesn't slap on a badge to their vehicles and sell them at an overcharged price? There is reason the BMW X1 and X2 exist.
Of course we don't have a metric measurement about how many "stripper" BMW 3 Series are sold. But any logical person would even guess that at least 50% plus of their 100K sales per year on the 3 Series are stripper models. No. What's being stated here about noticing a lot of stripper model 3 Series is an observation of their location of living. It doesn't mean its not a fact - it means its an observation. Here's a better example: why is that the brand new 2014 Lexus IS sold 3 times less cars than the 3 year old 2014 BMW 3 Series? The 2014 Lexus IS tech was miles ahead of the 2014 BMW 3 Series but yet sold less? Answer: Brand.
Your last statement regarding Jeremy Clarkson seems to tilt you. Why does it matter what he says? Its his opinion. You have a right to your opinion. Jeremy Clarkson, other people and I have the opinion to think the E60 BMW ugly. This is why looks are subjectiveand have a minimal impact on sales. Majority of the sales volume is affected by price, value per dollar and brand. The all play hand-and-hand.
Secondly - why does it tilt you so much that Jeremy Clarkson called the E60 ugly? People didn't get tilted when you called Lexus GS ugly.
Flawed by its styling? Subjective. You think its ugly other people think its good looking. Overall - Lexus' signature grille and L lights are well-received and majority of people think it looks great now. The Lexus UX reaction was good.
Aging platform? You are wrong here. The Lexus GS sits on the New N Platform. The New N Platform was introduced in 2012 with the 2012 Lexus GS which makes it 6 years old as of today. That isn't considered aging.
Here's a fun fact: The F10 5 Series sits on the F01 7 Series platform - the F01 7 Series was introduced in 2009 with its platform. During 2016, the last model year of the F10 BMW 5 Series, the F10 5 Series platform was about 7 years old already. The 2016 Lexus GS was sitting on a 4 year old platform and matching the 5 Series features per feature with a few minor exceptions. Despite the 2016 Lexus GS being newer and cheaper - the older-outdated 2016 F10 5 Series sells nearly doubled the Lexus GS sales. If platform really affect sales volumes, shouldn't the BMW 5 Series in 2016 have crap sales?
People were arguing the Lexus ES taking the Lexus GS sales are talking about US-SALES, not EU-SALES. In the US market, the Lexus ES takes up some of the Lexus GS sales. In the EU-market, the 5 Series and E-Class are on home-turf. The Lexus GS has to sell against two very popular cars in Europe while being in a brand prestige disadvantage. Conclusion: EU-Sales numbers are low for the GS.
You know you are on a Lexus forum right? Being that's the case - you'll get some Lexus-bias replies. Bimmerpost is no difference. You'll get some BMW-bias replies on Bimmerpost. To throw shade by calling Lexus forum posters "cheerleading" is quite an insult because no one is accusing you of cheer-leading for BMW/Mercedes Benz.
Yes, brand is most probably the number 1 factor as to why the 3 Series outsells the IS.
However, there are some other major factors at play too.
Another major factor is styling.
To say that styling has minimal impact on sales is contrary to JD Power research, and many other studies. http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...hicle-purchase http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...tain-cars.html http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/buy...icle-1.2552707
The IS is very controversially sportily styled compared to the C Class and 3 Series which sold 77k+ & 59k+ respectively last year in the USA to the IS's paltry 26k+ units.
Beyond saying that styling plays a major factor in purchase decision, I don't like to comment too much on styling, because it is too subjective with no proof, and no evidence backed up by research/polling.
There are other factors too like interior space.
The IS is smaller than both C Class and 3 Series.
Another factor that is generally NOT widely surveyed/researched is ethnicity.
In the US, about 50+% of the population is of European ethnicity, and Lexus is the second biggest luxury marque in the USA behind Mercedes-Benz.
However, in other parts of the world like Australia and New Zealand, Lexus is only the fourth biggest luxury marque - well behind BMW and Audi - and there is speculation that Australia & New Zealand have much higher percentage of European ethnicity than the USA [approaching 90%] - hence the rather poor sales of Lexus in those parts of the world.
The GS, as I have stated is perfectly good car flawed by its styling and its aging platform and lack of drive train choices. Nothing more. If it's not selling then what is the problem? People were arguing that it was the ES that was the problem. Until I pointed out that the ES is not sold in Europe.
Lexus 4GS platform is not outdated, The 2GR-FKS 3.5l naturally aspirated V6 is solid and refined engine, it can go no further than the 4GS because the competition is simply getting too powerful using forced induction. I doubt Lexus will use it or the 8 speed in the GA-L based GS anyway.
The E39 closely followed by the E60 were both regarded as two of the “best drivers car sedans” in modern BMW history.
Most publications regarded the E39 and E60 as a feeling like your behind the wheel of a roomier larger 3 series. In 2011 BMW introduced the F10 generation 5 series and its was described by many journalists as feeling like you were driving a smaller 7 series. These journalist weren’t wrong the F10 was essentially a shrunken F01 SWB 7 series, It was heavier and more comfortable than its predecessor the E60.
It seems Lexus bought a E60 took it apart and then built the 4GS based upon what all they learned from dissecting the E60. The 4GS was and still is regarded as one of the lightest cars and best handling cars in its segment losing only to Caddy’s beautifully engineered CTS sedan for lightest midsize luxury car trophy. The 4GS did use a carry over powertrain in 2013, but it was revised and if you look at the instrument test results it tied the 535i 3.0l turbo for acceleration and passing power was on par with the 535i too. During the last few years the only cars I remember reading about being more of a dynamic feeling car than the 4GS were the freshly redesigned CTS and Jaguar XF and both of these sedans have been a big sales disappointment for their automakers.
Assuming Lexus launches the next GS in the next 11 months, It will have the competitive advantage over most of the current offerings on the market today when it comes to fuel efficiency and hp and torque ratings. The 416hp 450lb-ft V6 in the LS500 is class leading when you compare it to the 2 ancient supercharged 3.0l V6’s used in A8/A6 and XJ/XF. BMW’s newest 3.0l is a powerful motor, but isn’t making that kind of power stock. The Mercedes 3.0l is under powered too. The only manufacturer with a competitive 6 cylinder that I can think of is Cadillac 3.6TT V6 and it’s making 420hp/430trq . So far I hear the new 10 speed in the LS is a huge improvement over the older gear hunting 8 speed auto. The suspension components from the LS/LC are class competitive.
Like I said a while ago these are ingredients for a successful midsize luxury sporty sedan. If they can nail the styling properly without being too controversial and make the interior as good as the one in the LC they might be on to something. Interestingly Jaguars all new XF has had a hard time selling too and it’s a clean sheet design, but maybe Jag played it too safe with the conservative styling. Like BippuLexus said in one of his post I think Lexus needs to restratigize how they market the next gen GS to potential consumers. The product management has to do more to separate it more from the affordable ES model, it’s got to be significantly sexier than ES. It shouldn’t take car enthusiasts to be able to spot the differences between the two models going forward. From a distance a bystander should be able to say is that the new GS driving by Wow!
Aging platform? You are wrong here. The Lexus GS sits on the New N Platform. The New N Platform was introduced in 2012 with the 2012 Lexus GS which makes it 6 years old as of today. That isn't considered aging.
Here's a fun fact: The F10 5 Series sits on the F01 7 Series platform - the F01 7 Series was introduced in 2009 with its platform. During 2016, the last model year of the F10 BMW 5 Series, the F10 5 Series platform was about 7 years old already. The 2016 Lexus GS was sitting on a 4 year old platform and matching the 5 Series features per feature with a few minor exceptions. Despite the 2016 Lexus GS being newer and cheaper - the older-outdated 2016 F10 5 Series sells nearly doubled the Lexus GS sales. If platform really affect sales volumes, shouldn't the BMW 5 Series in 2016 have crap sales?
Originally Posted by highrev6
Lexus 4GS platform is not outdated, The 2GR-FKS 3.5l naturally aspirated V6 is solid and refined engine, it can go no further than the 4GS because the competition is simply getting too powerful using forced induction. I doubt Lexus will use it or the 8 speed in the GA-L based GS anyway.
Only when we learn more about platforms do we realize that the current Lexus N Platform used in the current 4GS is indeed outdated.
Full alumiium platforms as used in Acura NSX, Audi A8 & Tesla Model S costs too much to manufacture, hence presently, only "part" aluminium platforms are used with neatly 50% aluminium content.
VW/Audi/Porsche actually started the modular "architecture" platforms eg MQB transverse & MLB longitudinal back in 2012.
The 2015-22 Audi A4 is claimed to be 260 lbs lighter than its predecessors!!!
Mercedes started their modular architecture platforms called their MRA platform in the 2013-20 S Class, short for Modular Rear Architecture.
The new MFAModular Front Architecture is used in the CLA etc.
The MRA platform was then used in the 2014-21 C Class.
Then this platform was used in the 2016-23 E Class. The MRA modular platform in the E Class has high aluminium content that reduces weight by around 220 lbs! Lower weight not only improves performance, but it also improves economy, braking, agility, and terminal grip on the skid pan.
All car manufacturers cheat off each other.
They copy each other in styling, and in engineering.
Thus, BMW is not to be outdone, BMW has the UKL Untere Klasse [lower class], and OKL Ober Klasse [luxury class] modular platforms.
The 2015-22 7 Series was the first to use the new modular BMW platform with high aluminium content, and much lower weight.
The 2017-22 5 Series was next to use the OKL platform.
The forthcoming 2019-26 3 Series will be next in line for the new high aluminium content OKL platform.
Lately, Lexus has been a bit late to the party.
Late to the party with small capacity turbos.
Late to the party with large capacity Lion battery plug-in hybrids - just ask LexusJillCT!
And of course late to the party with high aluminium content low weight modular architecture chassis.
Though TMC should be on time with electrification, and you never know, TMC may actually pioneer graphene battery technology!
Not to worry, the TNGA GA-L platform debut in the LC & 5LS with high aluminium content in the bonnet, doors, trunk lid, roof, even using cast aluminium strut mounts, and the LC using part carbon fiber doors.
You all know about the TNGA GA-K platform used in the Camry etc.
A brand new modular TNGA GA-L platform is coming into the Toyota Crown next year, and hopefully a 5GS too.
Hopefully, the next gen Toyota Crown can shave off at least 220 lbs to improve performance, economy, braking, agility, and terminal gripe on the skid pan.
Lexus is also late to the party with a variation in body styles eg 4 door coupes [4 door Gran Coupes].
For example, the Germans have:
A Class versus CLA 4 Door Coupe
E Class versus CLS 4 Door Coupe
S Class versus AMG GT 4 Door Gran Coupe
GLC versus GLC 4 Door Coupe
GLE versus GLE 4 Door Coupe
3 Series versus 4 Series
5 Series versus 6 Series 4 Door Gran Coupe
7 Series versus 8 Series 4 Door Gran Coupe [coming]
X3 versus X4 4 Door Coupe
X5 versus X6 4 Door Coupe
A4 versus A5 Fastback
A6 versus A7 Fastback
A8 versus A9 [coming]
Q5 versus Porsche Macan
Q7 versus Porsche Canine
Back in the 80's and 90's, TMC had many variations in body styles - even the Toyota Crown and Lexus GS is an example of variation in body styles!
Back in the 80's and 90's, TMC also had a full range of modular in-line sixes in 2.0/2.5/3.0 in atmospheric, turbos and twin turbos.
It will be interesting to see if Lexus' 3.5L V6 TT is available in smaller capacities to be used in the Toyota Crown/Lexus GS and Lexus IS, because the larger capacity 3.5 V6 has higher reciprocating mass, hence it does not idle nor rev as smoothly, nor does it have the fuel economy of a 3.0 V6; it does have more power & torque though - which is great for the heavyweight 5LS, but I'm not sure if it's also great for the smaller & lighter IS & GS, and Lexus has a reputation for detuning their engines in GS & IS anyway.
Today, TMC seems to be really saving money to amass the highest equity of US$171 billion dollars compared to their peers - I guess...
.
Will they fit V35A-FTS into smaller RWD cars is the question everyone here is eager to get an answer to. Before we get an official answer few years down the road I have another one: Does anyone know the weight of this engine and how does it compare to Infiniti and BMW engine weight?
It's actually being tested using the new forthcoming Toyota Crown sheet metal with a 2" longer wheelbase and six side windows, but it is using the old 4GS' original nine split spoke alloy wheels.
04-01-18 | 07:00 PM
