As far as I'm concerned, one can be a car enthusiast without being a speed, slalom, High-G-handling, or braking enthusiast. The two sometimes go together....sometimes not. Many car enthusiasts, not necessarily concerned with oversteer or understeer, would feel right at home in an ES. So would I, if the Lacrosse or Impala were not on the market.

 

FWD-based will always feel FWD-based, because the engine, torque converter and gearbox are all in front of the front axle; this applies to the forthcoming 7ES AWD.

With older Audis, the engine, flywheel and torque converter is in front of the front axle, while the gearbox is behind the front axle for a small benefit compared to regular transverse engine FWD like the ES.

With newer Audis, the engine is in front of the front axle, but the flywheel, torque converter and gearbox are all behind the front axle for more benefit again!

 

I personally agree with you that brand comes before styling.
However, I cannot brand that as a "fact" because I have no evidence, since research sometimes shows styling being considered above the brand, while other research says the other way around.
From a factual point of view, I can only say that both brand and styling are up there amongst the top of buyer's priorities when choosing to purchase a motor vehicle.

I think IS looks quite attractive too, and we have owned 2IS, 3IS and currently own 3.5IS200t for the missus.
The only problem with IS styling relative to C Class and 3 Series, is that we believe the IS comes across as being very sporty, while the German two are more elegantly styled.

 

If you read the new paragraph below the bottom, it says:

Update: Sources indicate this vehicle is a prototype for neither the Lexus ES or Lexus GS, but for the Toyota Crown sedan. The Crown, which is developed mainly for the Japanese market, is a full-size four-door that shares its rear-wheel drive platform with the Lexus GS.

 

Some of the rumors swirling around seem to indicate that Lexus would like to lean towards the ES in Europe. This is new, because the ES hasn't been sold there previously. This adds credibility to the idea that the GS goes away and the ES takes its place. Netherlands magazine AutoRai claims they've confirmed behind the scenes that this is the plan going forward. New platform, new possibilities. The current ES has a great repuation in the US, so maybe Lexus wants to use the global architecture to grab some sales on the European side.

The next gen ES mules have already been seen in testing, so that means they are close to production ready, just like the Avalon. The GS' future in the US remains unclear because, the LS has gotten very sporty compared to past versions, but is also priced into six figures. Then you have the IS which is very sporty and nicely styled but is smaller inside. Maybe the GS never found the sweet spot.

 

 

 

highrev6, you have great expertise in these sports models.
I myself rarely look past a C300 fully equipped.

 

Agreed with this 100%. Your average luxury consumer will most likely not know what understeer or oversteer is. Heck, they probably don't even know the difference between HP and torque. I have been to so many dealerships in my day, some times for fun to check out the newer vehicles, to have a salesperson tell me: "this car has a (blank) amount of HP - its fast." And your everyday average consumer will believe that HP is the number to look - when reality its torque.

I definitely agree. Car enthusiasts makes up a small percent of the auto world. This is why YouTube channel about cars usually never get popular or rarely get popular. We car enthusiasts are always usually the one that think day in and day out, compare vehicles, debate vehicle stats, and then make a hard choice of what to buy.

I agree with this too. People that are car enthusiast can buy almost any car. At the end of the day - the VIP Scene, Tuner Scene, Muscle scene, and Euro Scene are all car enthusiasts people. We do something we all love - cars. However - I think highrev6 was merely stating its more often than not its a non-car-enthusiast that buys the Lexus ES. While I agree car enthusiasts can buy any car, I also agree that majority of the time the car enthusiasts won't buy the Lexus ES. It just doesn't fit anywhere. The Lexus ES isn't popular in the VIP scene nor the tuner scene.

That's the interesting about marketing - its playing people's emotions that can sway at any moment. I mean, at times, in business meetings for my company, we would sit there and throw out random ideas to have a collect brain storm. A lot of times - these ideas aren't backed on any research but personal experiences that top people on our team share. Then you take these ideas, run a trial, and see if it yields effects. While there is no 100% statistical proof that brand is before styling, one can conclude with an educated guess its most likely brand first.

I do agree with you on the IS, C-Class and 3 Series styling. The Lexus IS is definitely more a sport style versus the C-Class and 3 Series. I would only say the C-Class and 3 Series look more elegant in terms of luxury design if it comes loaded. A standard looking C-Class/3 Series without those lighting packages make the car look cheaper than a Honda Civic. *No offense to Honda Civics.

I disagree with you here though. While based on model year birthday the Lexus IS and Infiniti Q50 might be the oldest, but the C-Class and Acura TLX are only 1 year younger and they all have different life-cycles. <--- I believe because of life-cycles the definition of "old" gets rather mixed because they all get to the next model at around the same time. IE: I mean - one can say the Mercedes-Benz C-Class is the oldest car because it'll likely be the last one to get a next gen model based on its 7 year cycle. By that time - all the cars within its competition would have been on next gen already.
2014 Lexus IS - IS will likely see a new gen in 2020 for MY2021 based on a 7 year life-cycle (first gen was 7 years/second gen was 8 years life-cycles)
2014 Infiniti Q50 - Q50 will likely see a next gen in 2020 for MY2021 based on a 7 year life cycle (V36 G was a 7 year life-cycle)
2015 C-Class - C-Class will likely see a next gen in 2021 for MY2022 based on a 7 year life cycle (All models of the C-Class was based off of 7 years life-cycles)
2015 TLX - TLX will likely see a next gen in 2020 for MY2021 based on a 6 year life cycle (Acura TSX (2nd gen) Acura TL (4th gen) was both 6 years life-cycles)

Lexus IS300 (Turbo) MPG: 22 City / 32 Hwy
Infiniti Q50 2.0T MPG: 23 City / 30 Hwy
C-Class MPG: 24 City / 33 Hwy
Acura TLX Inline 4 MPG: 24 City / 33 Hwy
Audi A4 FWD 2.0T MPG: 27 City / 37 Hwy
BMW 320i MPG: 24 City / 35 Hwy

^^^As for MPG - the leaders within the competition the Lexus Turbo competes in are the BMW 320i and Audi A4. However, for the Lexus IS300 (turbo), Q50 2.0T, C-Class and TLX MPG are so close to each other, with a deviation of 1-2, its hardly an argument to say those cars have better mpg. Given the fact that the C-Class is on a lighter new modular platform (MRA) and only beat the Lexus by 1-2 MPG for city/hwy. (granted the C-Class is more powerful and competes with the Lexus IS350.)
If we are comparing the Lexus IS300 (Turbo) to the 330i, Q50 3.0T, C-Class, TLX V6, A4 Quattro 2.0T, then obviously the Lexus IS300 Turbo would be the slowest because it doesn't compete with these cars at all. The Lexus IS300 would be the only one in this competition with a price tag of under 45K loaded while everything else is over 52K loaded. The Lexus IS350 is the trim that competes here.
The Lexus IS300 Turbo is better suited versus the 320i, Q50 2.0T, TLX Inline 4 and Audi A4 FWD 2.0T. In this competition, all the cars are priced within the 40-45K range loaded. This makes more sense. Here we will see the Lexus IS300 Turbo performs the best out of all of them.

While I agree the Lexus IS300 Turbo is underpowered compared to other Turbo cars in the 50K range, the Lexus IS300 Turbo doesn't compete there. And within its competition, its the best performing vehicle.


I will take a look. Thanks!

 

I meant that the current IS is the oldest amongst the four (4) major players in terms of access to modern: lightweight platforms and small capacity turbos.
The current 2012-19 3 Series doesn't use a high content aluminium platform, but it does use a dedicated compact luxury car platform that is more lightweight than "sharing" platforms between a compact and midsize car, which is what IS/GS does.

All four major players tend to use seven (7) year model cycles.

 

 

I do find it interesting that people are talking about F models, AMG models, M models, etc... that is not important when we talk about sales at all. Even in the USA, most of the market is 4cly engines now. Just check inventories to see what are the best selling models for 5, E, A6... hint: it is not 6 cylinder let alone M models.

 

There is an almost neurotic obsession with extreme performance (perhaps worse than the obsession with the styling of the spindle grille) in Car Chat, a level at which Lexus does not compete. These contributors will use this to argue that Lexus is not a legitimate luxury car brand and will never be able to compete against the Germans.

 

There are patents for the new Honda/Acura turbo V6 and I believe some designs specs already, it is coming but what vehicles it will be put in is not yet confirmed.