When you say 4 major players, do you mean Mercedes Benz, BMW, Audi and Lexus?

Gotcha. But I think oldest is the wrong word. I think its better if you use last to update to lighter platforms. Because you were making it sound like because the Lexus platform is older, it won't compete well anymore. Older doesn't equal outdated or lack of competition though. As Highrev6 pointed out in his earlier post, the "older" New N Platform is still competitive to the vehicles on newer platforms.

Agreed. The sales number in the USA points to non-performance models. The performance models are a niche of sales. IE: The Lexus IS250 from 2014-2015 sold extremely well considering it was an underpowered V6 geared for fuel economy.

I agree with this. I'm new to Car Chat here on ClubLexus and I have noticed there are people on here that dismiss Lexus for a "true luxury" brand and can't compete with Germany because of no ultra high performance options. Its ludicrous to think Lexus isn't a luxury brand because they don't offer enough performance options.

Well - then again - there are people from all walks of life. I have seen people on BimmerPost claim: "BMW is a "true sports car enthusiasts" brand because it breaks down often so you have can fix it. A true enthusiasts fixes their cars." I would call it a bad investment.

I found something online that states the TLX Type S will be the first vehicle with it but it'll be sometime in the next decade, which makes sense since they want to milk the Turbo 4 on the RDX first. We'll see what Acuras do with their vehicle.

Personally, I would never purchase a Acura ever again until they make their cars in Japan. Something just don't sound right when your Acura is 100% made with American parts/engine/transmission and made in Ohio. Nothing wrong with American manufacturing and it'll be nice to support our country. But supposedly Acura is an "import" brand - it doesn't scream import when your car isn't even from Japan. Especially when not even one part is Japanese. I would have been okay if they assembled it in America with Japanese parts, Japanese engine and Japanese transmission - that will still give it that import vibe.

Can we have some context here? How does the "performance" M/AMG models drive up sales for inline 4s? My guess is you are trying to tell people that because the 3 Series has a M3 version - people will buy the 320i? Based on my experience in business, it doesn't work that way. The thing is majority of the people who buy the 320i or C300 don't give a crap about the M/AMG models because they aren't buying those vehicles. Heck even, chances are - majority of the people that buy the standard base model 3 Series or C-Class - don't even know what a M Series or AMG is. Nor they even care. And if the do, it'll be what the car salesperson tells them.
^^^ Similarity - I don't see Audi gaining insane numbers of sales on their A3 since the RS3 came out. Wouldn't the RS line-up be considered as "authentic", like you put it?

I'll agree with you here - the "F" for Lexus was an afterthought. It wasn't a big part of their plan, I agree.

Secondly - the GS-F is more like the F10 BMW M5 because when the GS-F was released, it was meant to compete with the F10 M5.
I wouldn't compare the GS-F, which is old now, to the new F90 M5. Please wait for the next GS-F, if there is one, to compare it to the F90 M5.

Lexus is lost overall? Lexus is doing just great - they are selling cars in an upward momentum. This exactly goes back to what Sulu was saying - people dismissing Lexus because they don't have performance options. Secondly - there are things that Lexus does better and there are things that BMW does better. Every car company has a niche.

What is your reasoning the Lexus LS will not sell?

You just made 3 blunt opinions with no facts backing it up. I feel like your comments are trying to ignite a flame war by claiming German cars are better than Lexus in every way rather than actually providing anything useful towards a car chat.

 

Reintroduction of Type-S trim will be a debut for V6 Turbo inside Acura. RDX Type-S is also confirmed by insiders. Let's wait and see.

 

 

That's true. The TLX Type S is rumored to get the first Turbo V6 for Acura. The rumor also are stating that it'll be released in the next decade. We are just going to have to wait and see.

I do realize the F10 M5 is faster than the GS-F, just like the M3/M4 is faster than the RC-F. I was merely stating the GS-F is better compared with the F10 M5 despite being slower.

The thing BMW and Mercedes Benz has that Lexus don't have is: the perception of a better brand. This allows BMW and Mercedes Benz to sell a boat load of cars without the cars actually being better. (I'm not talking about the M/AMG cars which is obviously better than the F versions - this can be subjected to the fact that BMW and Mercedes Benz has been doing it a lot longer than Lexus.) ---> I'm talking about the 3 Series and C-Class, which sells over 100K units yearly despite offering less features as standard than the Lexus IS. IE: The 2014 Lexus IS comes with more features as standard, more advance tech if optioned(in 2014), and cheaper. However - the 2014 3 Series which is 3 years old already sold triple the amount of the Lexus IS. This happens because you have a good chunk of average consumers literally buying BMW/Benz because its a BMW/Benz. Evidence of this is people buying the C-Class and 3 Series with minimal options or no options at all just to have the badge.

Luxury is about gadget, technology, comfort of ride, quality, materials, and then at the very end performance. Luxury cars don't look at performance first unless you are looking a "Sports-Luxury" theme vehicle. However - you forgot one thing - BRAND is the most thing above all else in the luxury market. Brand can literally sway people to buy something that is obviously worst than a Civic, Camry or Jetta. Last I checked - a minimally packaged BMW 3 Series cost about close to 40K and its less luxurious than a 27K Civic. But yet, you see tons and tons of people buy the 3 Series with near no options or no options? Why? Answer: Brand - To say they drive a "BMW".

 

 

Let me start off by saying a few things. Performance is not the same thing as quick. High-end luxury cars, such as Rolls Royce and Bentley, are quick from a powerful engine - this is not performance. Offering V12 and having 500HP is only considered performance if its in a proper sports vehicle. Just because a Rolls Royce has a V12 and over 500HP, doesn't mean performance - it means quick.

Second. I disagree. Performance is not #1 if you are looking to buy any pure luxury vehicles, such as the Rolls Royce and Bentley because they aren't even built for those purposes... I'm not saying pure luxury vehicles don't have powerful engines - they will have to have it because of the price range and they need the power to move the weight. I'm merely stating when people are buying these type of vehicles (pure luxury) they aren't looking at power first. This might be shocking but power isn't everything. The average wealthy consumer isn't walking into a Rolls Royce dealer and asking the sales person - "What is the track time?" "What's the HP/TQ?" - as their very first questions. Chances are - they'll be looking at the luxury amenities, the tech, and etc... Then at the end, it'll be the engine size.

If you are saying performance is #1 in luxury, then why don't Rolls Royce and Bentleys advertise their nurb times, 0-60 times, g-force, skid-pad, figure 8s and etc... instead of their interior quality/luxury? Because performance isn't #1 to these cars. However - I'll agree with you if we are talking about Sports Luxury vehicles. If we are talking about cars, such as the M3, M5, C63 AMG, RS3, RS5, and etc.., then it'll be brand and performance before anything else.

Side note: you grouping a bunch of different cars from difference classes together here... A S63 AMG and M5 aren't the same as Rolls Royce. I would place the S63 AMG and M5 as sports-luxury sedans while the Rolls Royce is just a ultra-high-end luxury car.

Tesla made its name for being the first luxury electric car that offers self-driving technology and quick acceleration because of its instant torque from electric motors - not performance. So you are wrong - performance didn't make Tesla - self-driving tech, tech, and quick acceleration did.

Lastly - are we talking about the brand relative to performance or the type of cars relative to performance? Because those are two different things due to the fact that there are multiple categories of cars. Depending on what "type" of car it is - we will be looking at luxury first or performance first differently. IE: BMW M3 will be brand/performance first. 7 Series will be brand/luxury first. Because you don't make a M3 with luxury first and you don't make a 7 Series with tracking it on the nurb first.

 

about power and luxury, power is a luxury, but typically in a luxury branded vehicle the power shouldn't be loud and in your face, it should be smooth, often quiet and give a feeling of 'effortlessness'.
the 3.3tt in my new g90 is 'only' rated at 365hp i believe, but it certainly feels effortlessly able to really scoot. handling is very good imo, but it's not a porsche and isn't intended to be one.

 

I agree with your point - "power" is "luxury". I never said it wasn't. However, RNM G23 was stating in luxury branded cars, the power is always the #1 thing that makes it luxury. I contested and said its different for different categories of vehicles. IE: For something like a Rolls-Royce - its not the power that comes first for the luxury - its the quality/refinement/tech/amenities that come first in terms of luxury. However, for something like a M3/M4/C63 AMG/RS 3/Q50 3.0T RS/etc... - definitely - power is first.

A good example is your brand new G90 (nice pick up by the way). The way Hyundai designed the G90 was probably in prioritization of quality/refinement/tech/amenities first, rather than the power delivery.

Also agreed with the fact that "pure" luxury branded power is about the smoothness and the refinement of the it all. That's what I was trying to get at with the Rolls Royce comment. Its not performance, but just power.

 

if by 'performance' you mean handling as well then maybe... the full amg mb's have both amazing power and 'performance' by your definition. porsches have really become luxury sports cars and suvs now with incredible overall performance power and handling, so you don't have to have one or the other.

about power i expect a luxury car to deliver power in an understated way that feels effortless. if you buy a dodge demon or something it's the opposite, announcing its power all the time which for me would get old very quickly. i've not driven a tesla s but everyone who has reports how effortless and serene are the amazing torque and thrust of the car. the tesla s may not have an impressively luxurious interior, but the power delivery and (with low COG from a floor of batteries) great handling.

i'm sure i'd have liked a tesla x or s but i'm just not into the idea of charging my car for hours on end yet.

 

Actually - what I mean by "performance" is: an all in one - power, handling, throttle response, and etc... Performance more like Nissan GT-R. While power is more just going fast in a straight line with zero effort without the handling aspects and track-time aspects.

Side note: Not all MB AMGs have good handling. Quite a few of them, such as the C63 AMG, is pretty much a muscle car and handles pretty meh.

To be clear - for something like a Porsche 911 (which are Sports-Luxury Cars) - they will have power, performance, handling or whatever you wanna call it prioritized first. <Since they are a Sport-Luxury cars. This is what I was trying to get at earlier - depends on the type of vehicle. We can not say the people at Rolls Royce (which is a pure luxury car) prioritize power first when making a Rolls Royce. They didn't take a RR to the Nurb and decide to figure how to make a track monster. Its likely a RR prioritizes luxury/craftsmanship/amenities/etc... first before deciding what massive engine to put in it.

For the Tesla Model S - the acceleration is amazing due to the electric motors insane torque. However - you are wrong about the handling. Tesla Model S handles like a clown car - it feels heavy and unresponsive.

 

"Effortless" is the kind of luxury power they're going for, I think. The G80 5.0 I drove definitely fits that bill - even at low RPMs it would purr along with meaningful acceleration. Even when I did drop the hammer, it didn't feel like it was working too hard.

Makes me curious if Lexus would put the 3.5-liter twin-turbo six in the GS as an option, if it would have that effortless feeling due to the abundance of torque in the lower revs.