Future of the Lexus GS around the world
04-05-18, 01:43 PM
#226
Lexus Test Driver
pulling the education card... 
you say:
and:
i'm not sure what your point is exactly but i think it's that despite bmw/mercedes's with similar specs to lexus models being more expensive, people whether 'wealthy' or not are buying the mb/bmw over lexus because of branding/image. if so, i think that's right. the ones buying lexus are buying because of perception (reality) of higher reliability, interest in a japanese brand, 'unique' styling and lower price, and a few on very specific specs (ex. hybrids).
it isn't EVERYTHING but it's critical because without it a product won't sell. as you say, in essence, a bad product with marketing/selling can sell but a great product without marketing/selling won't. lexus has for the most part been almost invisible in the past decade it seems. the placement on the black panther movie though was a great move.
and not all marketing is good marketing! i've found lexus' marketing/advertising to be confusing, inconsistent, sporadic, and sometimes just weird (remember the sriracha hot sauce lexus IS?
). but lexus marketing in its first decade was OFF THE CHARTS AWESOME, creative, classy, consistent, and when they did go outside their normal themes like for the 'something wicked this way comes' for the 2GS, it was tantalizing (sold me!) AND the product was able to back it up.
they will always be 'new' compared to bmw/mb (100 yrs old) but that's no excuse at this point because they've been around nearly 30 years.
that's very true they're very different and i would argue bmw/mb doesn't make "whatever they want" just because they feel like it, they do it because it's part of their BRANDING too. maybach as a separate sub-brand didn't make it but now they have s-class maybach versions i believe, so they incorporated what they learned from making these exceptional high end vehicles into their main lines. where's lexus? crickets. lexus has certainly don't things that "don't sell" for branding, like the LFA, but i believe that as wonderful as the LFA is, it was a giant mistake. they only made 500 2012 LFAs and they took YEARS to sell. from a low 100's ceiling price on the rest of their line they suddenly want to sell something (an exotic sports car no less) near 400K? they may have learned a lot building it but i don't think it helped with branding.
you say:
and:
i'm not sure what your point is exactly but i think it's that despite bmw/mercedes's with similar specs to lexus models being more expensive, people whether 'wealthy' or not are buying the mb/bmw over lexus because of branding/image. if so, i think that's right. the ones buying lexus are buying because of perception (reality) of higher reliability, interest in a japanese brand, 'unique' styling
and lower price, and a few on very specific specs (ex. hybrids).it isn't EVERYTHING but it's critical because without it a product won't sell. as you say, in essence, a bad product with marketing/selling can sell but a great product without marketing/selling won't. lexus has for the most part been almost invisible in the past decade it seems. the placement on the black panther movie though was a great move.
and not all marketing is good marketing! i've found lexus' marketing/advertising to be confusing, inconsistent, sporadic, and sometimes just weird (remember the sriracha hot sauce lexus IS?
). but lexus marketing in its first decade was OFF THE CHARTS AWESOME, creative, classy, consistent, and when they did go outside their normal themes like for the 'something wicked this way comes' for the 2GS, it was tantalizing (sold me!) AND the product was able to back it up.they will always be 'new' compared to bmw/mb (100 yrs old) but that's no excuse at this point because they've been around nearly 30 years.
that's very true they're very different and i would argue bmw/mb doesn't make "whatever they want" just because they feel like it, they do it because it's part of their BRANDING too. maybach as a separate sub-brand didn't make it but now they have s-class maybach versions i believe, so they incorporated what they learned from making these exceptional high end vehicles into their main lines. where's lexus? crickets. lexus has certainly don't things that "don't sell" for branding, like the LFA, but i believe that as wonderful as the LFA is, it was a giant mistake. they only made 500 2012 LFAs and they took YEARS to sell. from a low 100's ceiling price on the rest of their line they suddenly want to sell something (an exotic sports car no less) near 400K? they may have learned a lot building it but i don't think it helped with branding.
I wasn't trying to pull the education card. I was just stating my experience. No point intended besides that.
"i think it's that despite bmw/mercedes's with similar specs to lexus models being more expensive, people whether 'wealthy' or not are buying the mb/bmw over lexus because of branding/image" - That's exactly what I was trying to get at. That's end message, basically. While there are people that buy BMW/MB because they know about cars and they like them, I maintain that majority of their base aren't buying their cars because they know so much about them. It's the brand. Good point for Lexus. Yes. People do buy their vehicles for the reasons you have listed - I guess you can say that for all Japanese brands, really.
I was a bit over-exaggerating when I stated "everything" but again I maintain - its very, very important part of the whole sales process. That's exactly what I said in prior comments - a bad product with good marketing will sell like hotcakes but a good product with poor marketing will sell horribly. I'm not saying BMW/MB products are bad. I think BMW/MB/Lexus products are about on the same level of "good" but BMW/MB has better marketing which sells more to average consumers. Then they have more power-train options which sells towards car enthusiasts who are into power. I totally agree - Lexus marketing has been a joke lately. That's what I was trying to get at earlier too. BMW/Mercedes Benz are product placing at a faster rate and more often than Lexus. You literally hear rappers and singers sing about BMW/Mercedes Benz in about every other song - along with good product placement and commercials. Lexus did a good call on Black Panther - since the movie gross insane amounts of money. However - they need to keep at it and do more. This is the element Lexus lacks that cause them to lose brand perception to the average consumer. The sriracha Lexus IS was stupid. They need a new marketing team.
Yeah. The Maybach was removed because it was too similar to the S-Class. They have the S-Class Maybach edition now or something. Good point on the LFA. The LFA was a good car - it gave Lexus something recognition. However - I think the marketing was done poorly. What a lot of companies do when they want to market their brand or improve brand image is introduce and market a "Halo Car". Audi R8 is a good example. While the Audi R8 was just a reskin cheaper Lamborghini, the Audi marketing team did a great job on it and it really took off for Audi.
04-05-18, 08:24 PM
#227
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by BippuLexus
I wasn't trying to pull the education card.
I was just stating my experience.
04-06-18, 10:46 AM
#228
Pole Position
Interesting discussion getting slightly off topic, but wanted to address the seemingly nonsensical IS 300...
um... do you know what CAFE requirements are? (Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards)
Toyota/Lexus may be smarter than you give them credit for - as there is a method to their madness.
um... do you know what CAFE requirements are? (Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards)
Toyota/Lexus may be smarter than you give them credit for - as there is a method to their madness.
04-06-18, 10:53 AM
#229
Pole Position
Dude has anyone told you you shouldn't care how anyone types their responses? I'm not "too hung" on naming - its just a fact companies rename their crap all the time to enhance marketing.
So I'm a Lexus fanatic because I decide to not write off the entire brand due to a lack of power-train offerings? Okay - if you say so. I just think is a bit extreme to call a company "average" because they don't offer enough power-trains. That's the same thing as if I said - BMW is a average luxury company because they can't make reliable cars. I would never say that because I would not write off one whole company with such a basic reason. Do I think Lexus should offer more power-train options? Yes. I do. Does the average consumer care? Not likely.
I believe the actual saying is - the consumer is always right in the customer service sector - not marketing. In marketing - we actually do not care if the consumer is "right or wrong." But we can market a product that is wrong to make it look right in the consumer's eyes. If you think about it from a business outlook, the Lexus power-train is not hurting Lexus sales. Its hurting Lexus sales with car enthusiasts (well - the car enthusiasts that care about power) but not the average consumer. The 2014 Lexus IS with 8 year old engines sold nearly the same amount of cars as when it released new in 2006. That's proof the average person don't care about power-train options. That's the reason why I think to write off a company for low power-train options is ludicrous.
I have notice a trend since I started ClubLexus forum. Its similar to the older forums I frequent back in the day.
Acurazine forums in general chat has a lot of Acura hate - praises Infiniti.
Infiniti forums in general chat has a lot of Infiniti hate - praises Germans.
Lexus forums in general chat has a lot of Lexus hate for lack of power - praises Germans.
Seems like general chat in any forum has this addiction to power.
So I'm a Lexus fanatic because I decide to not write off the entire brand due to a lack of power-train offerings? Okay - if you say so. I just think is a bit extreme to call a company "average" because they don't offer enough power-trains. That's the same thing as if I said - BMW is a average luxury company because they can't make reliable cars. I would never say that because I would not write off one whole company with such a basic reason. Do I think Lexus should offer more power-train options? Yes. I do. Does the average consumer care? Not likely.
I believe the actual saying is - the consumer is always right in the customer service sector - not marketing. In marketing - we actually do not care if the consumer is "right or wrong." But we can market a product that is wrong to make it look right in the consumer's eyes. If you think about it from a business outlook, the Lexus power-train is not hurting Lexus sales. Its hurting Lexus sales with car enthusiasts (well - the car enthusiasts that care about power) but not the average consumer. The 2014 Lexus IS with 8 year old engines sold nearly the same amount of cars as when it released new in 2006. That's proof the average person don't care about power-train options. That's the reason why I think to write off a company for low power-train options is ludicrous.
I have notice a trend since I started ClubLexus forum. Its similar to the older forums I frequent back in the day.
Acurazine forums in general chat has a lot of Acura hate - praises Infiniti.
Infiniti forums in general chat has a lot of Infiniti hate - praises Germans.
Lexus forums in general chat has a lot of Lexus hate for lack of power - praises Germans.
Seems like general chat in any forum has this addiction to power.
2) I highly doubt anyone really hates Lexus here. Frustrated? Sure. At the end of the day, we all just want to see Lexus succeed. When you from 1st to 3rd with Audi closing in, even the blind can see what's happening.
3) Are you really Akio venting your frustration at us for bashing your undeniably old products outside of the LS and most of the LC (old engine)?
04-06-18, 10:54 AM
#230
drives cars
There's no need to be combative. However, I also don't really understand the CAFE reference - how is re-using the V-6 helping their CAFE compliance?
04-06-18, 11:37 AM
#231
Lexus Test Driver
Interesting discussion getting slightly off topic, but wanted to address the seemingly nonsensical IS 300...
um... do you know what CAFE requirements are? (Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards)
Toyota/Lexus may be smarter than you give them credit for - as there is a method to their madness.
um... do you know what CAFE requirements are? (Corporate Average Fuel Economy standards)
Toyota/Lexus may be smarter than you give them credit for - as there is a method to their madness.
1)The customer is always right no matter which part of the company you work in. If you dont give the customer what they want, there are always other options. Your marketing message better appeal to the customer and their wants/needs.
2) I highly doubt anyone really hates Lexus here. Frustrated? Sure. At the end of the day, we all just want to see Lexus succeed. When you from 1st to 3rd with Audi closing in, even the blind can see what's happening.
3) Are you really Akio venting your frustration at us for bashing your undeniably old products outside of the LS and most of the LC (old engine)?
2) I highly doubt anyone really hates Lexus here. Frustrated? Sure. At the end of the day, we all just want to see Lexus succeed. When you from 1st to 3rd with Audi closing in, even the blind can see what's happening.
3) Are you really Akio venting your frustration at us for bashing your undeniably old products outside of the LS and most of the LC (old engine)?
2) There is a clear difference between criticism to try to make the company better and hate. But when you call Lexus "average" because they put a detuned V6 into a Lexus IS300 AWD, that's consider hate, because you wrote off the whole company for one reason. Secondly - even the blind can see some Lexus hate on Car Chat on ClubLexus. This is a common theme on other forums too. General Chat on Acurazine has Acura hate. General Chat on Infiniti have Infiniti hate. Etc...
3) Again - this is where you proved my point. You said "Are you really Akio venting your frustration at us for bashing your undeniably old products". You literally just bashed Lexus for having old products - when in reality Lexus product isn't even "old". A BMW 3 Series is older - you don't see me bashing it for being a old product. A person that's criticizing Lexus to improve the company wouldn't do what you just did. On top of that - you sound super micro-aggressive, like you mad bro or something, when you mildly drop an insult referring me to Akio venting out my frustrations.
Last edited by BippuLexus; 04-06-18 at 11:51 AM.
04-06-18, 08:54 PM
#232
My intentions were pure. I wasn't not trying to gain anything by "waving" it around. Getting aggressive much? Why do you care where I went to school or what my "experience" is?
Interesting - I never knew heard CAFE before.
1) Actually - you are wrong. The customer is only considered always right depending on the job. They are considered always right depending on which part of the company you work for. IE: If you are customer service or in health services, then of course the customer and the patient is always right. When you marketing and developing a marketing strategy - what does that have to do with the consumer being right? You are marketing to sell something to the average consumer base. You are marketing to make something appealing to the average consumer base. A senior product marketing analyst doesn't even interact with a costumer - so how is the costumer always right when there is no costumer interaction? My point earlier was that your opinion (of Lexus being average) isn't the mass-produced opinion so Lexus doesn't care. I wouldn't consider Lexus average when they can sell the 2014 Lexus IS with 8 year old engines and still get the same amount of sales as the 2006 Lexus IS.
2) There is a clear difference between criticism to try to make the company better and hate. But when you call Lexus "average" because they put a detuned V6 into a Lexus IS300 AWD, that's consider hate, because you wrote off the whole company for one reason. Secondly - even the blind can see some Lexus hate on Car Chat on ClubLexus. This is a common theme on other forums too. General Chat on Acurazine has Acura hate. General Chat on Infiniti have Infiniti hate. Etc...
3) Again - this is where you proved my point. You said "Are you really Akio venting your frustration at us for bashing your undeniably old products". You literally just bashed Lexus for having old products - when in reality Lexus product isn't even "old". A BMW 3 Series is older - you don't see me bashing it for being a old product. A person that's criticizing Lexus to improve the company wouldn't do what you just did. On top of that - you sound super micro-aggressive, like you mad bro or something, when you mildly drop an insult referring me to Akio venting out my frustrations.
Interesting - I never knew heard CAFE before.
1) Actually - you are wrong. The customer is only considered always right depending on the job. They are considered always right depending on which part of the company you work for. IE: If you are customer service or in health services, then of course the customer and the patient is always right. When you marketing and developing a marketing strategy - what does that have to do with the consumer being right? You are marketing to sell something to the average consumer base. You are marketing to make something appealing to the average consumer base. A senior product marketing analyst doesn't even interact with a costumer - so how is the costumer always right when there is no costumer interaction? My point earlier was that your opinion (of Lexus being average) isn't the mass-produced opinion so Lexus doesn't care. I wouldn't consider Lexus average when they can sell the 2014 Lexus IS with 8 year old engines and still get the same amount of sales as the 2006 Lexus IS.
2) There is a clear difference between criticism to try to make the company better and hate. But when you call Lexus "average" because they put a detuned V6 into a Lexus IS300 AWD, that's consider hate, because you wrote off the whole company for one reason. Secondly - even the blind can see some Lexus hate on Car Chat on ClubLexus. This is a common theme on other forums too. General Chat on Acurazine has Acura hate. General Chat on Infiniti have Infiniti hate. Etc...
3) Again - this is where you proved my point. You said "Are you really Akio venting your frustration at us for bashing your undeniably old products". You literally just bashed Lexus for having old products - when in reality Lexus product isn't even "old". A BMW 3 Series is older - you don't see me bashing it for being a old product. A person that's criticizing Lexus to improve the company wouldn't do what you just did. On top of that - you sound super micro-aggressive, like you mad bro or something, when you mildly drop an insult referring me to Akio venting out my frustrations.
Constantly telling another poster that they are wrong indicates self-righteousness and opinionated views.
Too nitpicky on small details.
Overall, we all own Lexiis, we love our cars, and we want Lexus to do well.
The current 4GS & 3IS platforms and drivelines have yielded x amount of sales - specifically:
A fall from 3GS peak of 33k to the 23k peak in 4GS.
A fall from 2IS's 55k peak to the 51k peak in 3IS.
Lexus' 4GS & 3IS fall in sales occurred at a time when:
E Class lifted its peak sales form 59k to 69k, while 5 Series maintained its 56k/yr sales peak over the previous two generations.
3 Series have achieved a 142k peak for the past two generations, while C Class has raised its peak from 69k two generations ago, to 88k last generation.
Of course we want 4GS and 3IS to do better than that.
Of course TMC wants 4GS and 3IS to do better than that too.
However, the past is the past; what is done is done.
Hypothetically, to have done better than what the 4GS and 3IS had done over the past x number of years, Lexus had to improve its products - in terms of form and function, and in terms of platforms and drivelines.
Of course there will be differing views concerning how to go about achieving form and function, but as a matter of fact, what we do know is that the existing 4GS & 3IS in its current form only achieved x amount of sales - figures which were actually lower than their predecessors - at a time when E Class and C Class actually lifted their sales.
Low prices will help to a point.
Marketing will help to a point.
Of course, high sales does not mean a superior product.
04-06-18, 10:19 PM
#233
Lexus Test Driver
I'm a s******, but I never go around telling everyone that I'm a s******.
Constantly telling another poster that they are wrong indicates self-righteousness and opinionated views.
Too nitpicky on small details.
Overall, we all own Lexiis, we love our cars, and we want Lexus to do well.
The current 4GS & 3IS platforms and drivelines have yielded x amount of sales - specifically:
A fall from 3GS peak of 33k to the 23k peak in 4GS.
A fall from 2IS's 55k peak to the 51k peak in 3IS.
Lexus' 4GS & 3IS fall in sales occurred at a time when:
E Class lifted its peak sales form 59k to 69k, while 5 Series maintained its 56k/yr sales peak over the previous two generations.
3 Series have achieved a 142k peak for the past two generations, while C Class has raised its peak from 69k two generations ago, to 88k last generation.
Of course we want 4GS and 3IS to do better than that.
Of course TMC wants 4GS and 3IS to do better than that too.
However, the past is the past; what is done is done.
Hypothetically, to have done better than what the 4GS and 3IS had done over the past x number of years, Lexus had to improve its products - in terms of form and function, and in terms of platforms and drivelines.
Of course there will be differing views concerning how to go about achieving form and function, but as a matter of fact, what we do know is that the existing 4GS & 3IS in its current form only achieved x amount of sales - figures which were actually lower than their predecessors - at a time when E Class and C Class actually lifted their sales.
Low prices will help to a point.
Marketing will help to a point.
Of course, high sales does not mean a superior product.
Constantly telling another poster that they are wrong indicates self-righteousness and opinionated views.
Too nitpicky on small details.
Overall, we all own Lexiis, we love our cars, and we want Lexus to do well.
The current 4GS & 3IS platforms and drivelines have yielded x amount of sales - specifically:
A fall from 3GS peak of 33k to the 23k peak in 4GS.
A fall from 2IS's 55k peak to the 51k peak in 3IS.
Lexus' 4GS & 3IS fall in sales occurred at a time when:
E Class lifted its peak sales form 59k to 69k, while 5 Series maintained its 56k/yr sales peak over the previous two generations.
3 Series have achieved a 142k peak for the past two generations, while C Class has raised its peak from 69k two generations ago, to 88k last generation.
Of course we want 4GS and 3IS to do better than that.
Of course TMC wants 4GS and 3IS to do better than that too.
However, the past is the past; what is done is done.
Hypothetically, to have done better than what the 4GS and 3IS had done over the past x number of years, Lexus had to improve its products - in terms of form and function, and in terms of platforms and drivelines.
Of course there will be differing views concerning how to go about achieving form and function, but as a matter of fact, what we do know is that the existing 4GS & 3IS in its current form only achieved x amount of sales - figures which were actually lower than their predecessors - at a time when E Class and C Class actually lifted their sales.
Low prices will help to a point.
Marketing will help to a point.
Of course, high sales does not mean a superior product.
I agree - we all do own Lexus and we all want Lexus to succeed. However, I was pointing out its a ridiculous for Situman to write off a whole brand as "average" because Lexus did a detuned V6 IS300 AWD. I would consider that unnecessary hate on Lexus rather than criticism. While you and I disagree on opinions - I do find your opinions pure and constructive to how Lexus would better succeed. I too want Lexus to improve the Lexus IS. But rather than improving the entry-level Lexus IS300 Turbo, I think Lexus should up the IS line-up with a Lexus IS400 (detuned TTV6 from the Lexus LS). That will give the IS some more factor.
04-07-18, 04:12 AM
#234
Lexus Test Driver
Lexus is average for numerous reasons:
1) Old engines
2) Lack of engine options
3) Lack of customization
4) No FULL performance line to challenge M/AMG/RS
5) Dated Technology - have you seen the graphics on NAV system?
6) Way too many FWD drive derived cars/SUVs
7) No convertibles
8) No performance SUVs
9) Limited models
10) No manuals / DCT
They are good at:
1) Reliability
2) Value pricing
3) Hybrids
The criticism is mostly because Lexus was once making some of the most advanced cars in the world back in the 90s.
They have the knowledge, the money, and capability but for whatever reason they just want to be ultra conservative and not move the needle or redefine the Luxury market like they did back in the day.
Out of the current Lexus lineup - personally I would consider only 1 car, RCF - if i didn't need rear seats, i would probably have it.
The LC500 is the other one that i like but for $100k, i would probably get something else.
1) Old engines
2) Lack of engine options
3) Lack of customization
4) No FULL performance line to challenge M/AMG/RS
5) Dated Technology - have you seen the graphics on NAV system?
6) Way too many FWD drive derived cars/SUVs
7) No convertibles
8) No performance SUVs
9) Limited models
10) No manuals / DCT
They are good at:
1) Reliability
2) Value pricing
3) Hybrids
The criticism is mostly because Lexus was once making some of the most advanced cars in the world back in the 90s.
They have the knowledge, the money, and capability but for whatever reason they just want to be ultra conservative and not move the needle or redefine the Luxury market like they did back in the day.
Out of the current Lexus lineup - personally I would consider only 1 car, RCF - if i didn't need rear seats, i would probably have it.
The LC500 is the other one that i like but for $100k, i would probably get something else.
Last edited by RNM GS3; 04-07-18 at 04:23 AM.
04-07-18, 06:41 AM
#235
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Ok then ... back to the GS, I'm wondering what Lexus can really do to make a more competitive offering.
Been a while since i looked at bmw's 5 series info and presentation here... https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5-series/sedan.html
and compared it to the gs info and presentation here http://www.lexus.com/models/GS
the info and emphasis on performance and luxury on each is similar, although the v8 option on the 5 page provides some wow. I've never understood why lexus keeps gs-f separate as it's the only v8 option but to be fair bmw keeps the m5 separate too.
but in comparing these two pages, i'm struck by two things... 1 while i think neither looks good in base trim, i give the nod to bmw and i like the m-sport look way better than the gs f-sport which lexus uses a quote to describe as bold and not for the shy. and 2 i think the center console area with huge controller hand rest, scratch pad, and leather shift boot around auto shifter looks archaic and inefficient. Do they reverse the position of those on rhd versions?
apart from that they're similar. I've not driven either so can't comment with experience but based on what i've read i expect the turbo 4 bmw experience to be better than lexus and the turbo 6 to blow away the aged lexus v6 (smooth and refined it is though).
so it comes down to design, controls and power and to me lexus loses on all 3.
mercedes for the e class, very differently, emphasizes safety, luxury, and technology here. https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehic.../bodystyle-SDN
They don't have the performance cred outside the amg models so their presentation is smart, so you get the impression of innovative leader.
lexus can't compete on features, not offering air suspension, more autonomous features, etc. and the e class is very conservatively styled unlike the 'fearless' design lexus describes. So i don't think mb has anything to worry about with the gs.
lexus has to decide where and how to compete and hit it out of the park, or go home.
... back to the GS, I'm wondering what Lexus can really do to make a more competitive offering.Been a while since i looked at bmw's 5 series info and presentation here... https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5-series/sedan.html
and compared it to the gs info and presentation here http://www.lexus.com/models/GS
the info and emphasis on performance and luxury on each is similar, although the v8 option on the 5 page provides some wow. I've never understood why lexus keeps gs-f separate as it's the only v8 option but to be fair bmw keeps the m5 separate too.
but in comparing these two pages, i'm struck by two things... 1 while i think neither looks good in base trim, i give the nod to bmw and i like the m-sport look way better than the gs f-sport which lexus uses a quote to describe as bold and not for the shy. and 2 i think the center console area with huge controller hand rest, scratch pad, and leather shift boot around auto shifter looks archaic and inefficient. Do they reverse the position of those on rhd versions?
apart from that they're similar. I've not driven either so can't comment with experience but based on what i've read i expect the turbo 4 bmw experience to be better than lexus and the turbo 6 to blow away the aged lexus v6 (smooth and refined it is though).
so it comes down to design, controls and power and to me lexus loses on all 3.
mercedes for the e class, very differently, emphasizes safety, luxury, and technology here. https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehic.../bodystyle-SDN
They don't have the performance cred outside the amg models so their presentation is smart, so you get the impression of innovative leader.
lexus can't compete on features, not offering air suspension, more autonomous features, etc. and the e class is very conservatively styled unlike the 'fearless' design lexus describes. So i don't think mb has anything to worry about with the gs.
lexus has to decide where and how to compete and hit it out of the park, or go home.
04-07-18, 11:41 PM
#236
Lexus Test Driver
Lexus is average for numerous reasons:
1) Old engines
2) Lack of engine options
3) Lack of customization
4) No FULL performance line to challenge M/AMG/RS
5) Dated Technology - have you seen the graphics on NAV system?
6) Way too many FWD drive derived cars/SUVs
7) No convertibles
8) No performance SUVs
9) Limited models
10) No manuals / DCT
They are good at:
1) Reliability
2) Value pricing
3) Hybrids
The criticism is mostly because Lexus was once making some of the most advanced cars in the world back in the 90s.
They have the knowledge, the money, and capability but for whatever reason they just want to be ultra conservative and not move the needle or redefine the Luxury market like they did back in the day.
Out of the current Lexus lineup - personally I would consider only 1 car, RCF - if i didn't need rear seats, i would probably have it.
The LC500 is the other one that i like but for $100k, i would probably get something else.
1) Old engines
2) Lack of engine options
3) Lack of customization
4) No FULL performance line to challenge M/AMG/RS
5) Dated Technology - have you seen the graphics on NAV system?
6) Way too many FWD drive derived cars/SUVs
7) No convertibles
8) No performance SUVs
9) Limited models
10) No manuals / DCT
They are good at:
1) Reliability
2) Value pricing
3) Hybrids
The criticism is mostly because Lexus was once making some of the most advanced cars in the world back in the 90s.
They have the knowledge, the money, and capability but for whatever reason they just want to be ultra conservative and not move the needle or redefine the Luxury market like they did back in the day.
Out of the current Lexus lineup - personally I would consider only 1 car, RCF - if i didn't need rear seats, i would probably have it.
The LC500 is the other one that i like but for $100k, i would probably get something else.
2) Lack of engine options - True. Lexus has lack of engine options. However, how does this make them "average"? As I recall, Lamborghini has a lack of engine options - does that make them "average"?
3) Lack of customization - True. Lexus needs more customization.
4) No FULL performance line to challenge M/AMG/RS - Lexus starting to offer the F-line. While I do agree the GS-F (which competed with the F10 M5) and the RC-F are not as good as their German counterpart, they are literally competition with the M-line/AMG-line/RS-line. So I don't get what your "full performance line" is getting at? Unless you mean the Germans have more of a performance line offering - then Audi shouldn't on the list. I wouldn't consider "4 RS" models a "full" performance line.
5) Dated Technology - have you seen the graphics on NAV system? - Dated technology? No. Lexus' has almost the same tech offerings as the Germans. Have you seen the graphics on the Lexus Navigation? I don't think you have. The current Lexus navigation graphics are on-par with BMW and better than MB and Audi (Google overlay off).
6) Way too many FWD drive derived cars/SUVs - What? Audi only offers Audi FWD/AWD, I don't see you talking smack about them with this reason. Secondly - FWD SUVs make more sense than RWD SUV. You buy an SUV for space and a FWD layout gives that. That's why the Infiniti QX50 is going FWD. Lastly - Lexus only offers 3 cars in FWD and BMW offers 2 cars in FWD. Just because Lexus has one more FWD offering than BMW - that makes them "average"?
7) No convertibles, No performance SUVs, Limited models (This is pretty much one line) - You don't need to make up 3 extra reasons when "limited models" covers them all. You are just stretching reasons to make Lexus looks bad at this point. Porsche and Lamborghini has limited models - does this make them "average"? No. While I agree Lexus should diversify their model offerings to collect more niche/enthusiasts buyers, I do not think this is a valid reason to call Lexus "average". Lexus is a conservative company because Japan is a conservative country - they make what sells. You have to admit - the German's convertibles and performance SUV are nich sales. They don't make money from that nor they sell high volumes of it. They only make it to offer it. This is more of a reason of just running the companies differently.
10) No manuals / DCT - Do Audi and Mercedes offer manual? No. Does that make them "average"? No. So how does this make Lexus "average"?
So in reality - you only had 8 reasons which many of them are just plain Lexus-hate bashing reasons.
They are good at:
1) Reliability
2) Value pricing
3) Hybrids
(Interesting - you forgot to put)
4) Interior quality
5) Interior design - lack of blank switches, better cup holder design, buttons are where they are suppose to be, well-thought out
6) Cheaper maintenance.
7) All but 2 cars are made from Japan. Cars from Japan are usually 90-100% Japanese parts - which gives it a heavy import feel. BMW's 3 Series is bought for 45K-60K loaded depending on trim and there is a off-chance you can get this car made in South Africa or Mexico with only 60-65% of its content from Germany. Shouldn't luxury cars make their cars from their country of origin? Isn't that more luxurious?
8) More standard options.
9) NuLuxe seats (fake leather seats) are probably the best in Luxury segment.
10) Cheaper subscription for car-services.
11) And probably a lot more things that you clearly decided not to list to just make Lexus look average.
The only reason I replied is because I wanted to list the reasons against your Lexus is "average" claims. In reality - Lexus isn't average - its your opinion that it is. One can easily make-up 10, 20, 30 reasons why the German cars are average. But do they? No. Because they aren't average. Hell - even Acura and Infiniti aren't average. If Acura and Infiniti aren't average, then how is Lexus average?
While the reasons you listed don't make them average, I do think some of your reasons can be used to improve Lexus. Especially for the GS. IE: The Lexus GS could be offered with more engine options - with a TTV6.
04-08-18, 03:00 AM
#237
Lexus Fanatic
IMO, simply build it out of the same excellent materials they did in the 1990s, when it truly set a standard in its class. With a couple of exceptions, many of today's Lexus vehicles feel like tin cans compared to those of 15-20 years ago.
04-08-18, 07:36 AM
#238
Lexus is average for numerous reasons:
1) Old engines (Agree...and the newer ones underwhelm)
2) Lack of engine options (Well there are the old ones and newer ones, but they could add to this list competitive ones)
3) Lack of customization
4) No FULL performance line to challenge M/AMG/RS (Agree..there are murmurs and rumours but nothing has appeared yet)
5) Dated Technology - have you seen the graphics on NAV system? (iDrive on a M240i is terrific)
6) Way too many FWD drive derived cars/SUVs (For a SUV brand that’s ok actually)
7) No convertibles (Ok by me)
8) No performance SUVs (Alfa Stelvio equivalent would be nice, or performance UX, but they won’t make one)
9) Limited models
10) No manuals / DCT (Ok by Me)
They are good at:
1) Reliability (the Germans are getting better all the time, and the Koreans are making strides)
2) Value pricing (Disagree)
3) Hybrids (mostly overtaken by the competition now)
The criticism is mostly because Lexus was once making some of the most advanced cars in the world back in the 90s.(what happened?)
They have the knowledge, the money, and capability but for whatever reason they just want to be ultra conservative and not move the needle or redefine the Luxury market like they did back in the day.(True...)
Out of the current Lexus lineup - personally I would consider only 1 car, RCF - if i didn't need rear seats, i would probably have it.
The LC500 is the other one that i like but for $100k, i would probably get something else.
1) Old engines (Agree...and the newer ones underwhelm)
2) Lack of engine options (Well there are the old ones and newer ones, but they could add to this list competitive ones)
3) Lack of customization
4) No FULL performance line to challenge M/AMG/RS (Agree..there are murmurs and rumours but nothing has appeared yet)
5) Dated Technology - have you seen the graphics on NAV system? (iDrive on a M240i is terrific)
6) Way too many FWD drive derived cars/SUVs (For a SUV brand that’s ok actually)
7) No convertibles (Ok by me)
8) No performance SUVs (Alfa Stelvio equivalent would be nice, or performance UX, but they won’t make one)
9) Limited models
10) No manuals / DCT (Ok by Me)
They are good at:
1) Reliability (the Germans are getting better all the time, and the Koreans are making strides)
2) Value pricing (Disagree)
3) Hybrids (mostly overtaken by the competition now)
The criticism is mostly because Lexus was once making some of the most advanced cars in the world back in the 90s.(what happened?)
They have the knowledge, the money, and capability but for whatever reason they just want to be ultra conservative and not move the needle or redefine the Luxury market like they did back in the day.(True...)
Out of the current Lexus lineup - personally I would consider only 1 car, RCF - if i didn't need rear seats, i would probably have it.
The LC500 is the other one that i like but for $100k, i would probably get something else.
04-08-18, 10:19 AM
#239
Lexus Test Driver
How are many of today's Lexus feel like tin-cans compared to 15-20 years ago? My family and some of my extended family only drive Lexus. So we have Lexus from the past and present. While I do personally like 1-2 cars from Lexus past, it's ridiculous to call the new Lexus cars "tin-cans" compared to older Lexus.
04-08-18, 10:28 AM
#240
Lexus Fanatic
Are you saying Lexus used better materials in the 1990s than they do today? That's false. The Lexus of today holds better interior quality than the past.
How are many of today's Lexus feel like tin-cans compared to 15-20 years ago? My family and some of my extended family only drive Lexus. So we have Lexus from the past and present. While I do personally like 1-2 cars from Lexus past, it's ridiculous to call the new Lexus cars "tin-cans" compared to older Lexus.