Future of the Lexus GS around the world
04-09-18, 12:55 PM
#256
Lexus Test Driver
I disagree, some more modern Lexus models have gotten more expensive to maintain and repair then older ones, the LS460 comes to mind, especially a awd with air suspension, hybrid is even worse. Some of the prices Lexus dealerships charge for repairs is coming close to, as much, or even exceeding what some of the Europeans are charging especially for the more expensive models.
Have you checked the sales of the GS hybrid, they are basically non existent, they sell about 5 or so a month, same with all brands that offer a hybrid luxury sedan, they sold many more 8 cylinders when they had the option and buyers felt like they were getting much more for their money when they stepped up to a 8 cylinder. Hybrids for all luxury sedans simply don't sell so I don't know where you are getting that people are getting more environmentally friends(hybrids do not help the environment in any way). People are actually avoiding hybrid Luxury sedans to where their sales are pretty much non existent. A hybrid is not smart at all based on sales numbers, a 8 cylinder that did not have a big premium in price would be smart. The EPA is dropping the 54.5 mpg regulations in the US and there is no hybrid luxury sedan or 4 or 6 cylinder that would meet those ridiculous standards anyway.
I don't think they should do a de contented GS if they do another one unless it is priced very close to a similarly equipped ES, the problem with a de contented GS is buyers will just choose a ES instead which is exactly what they have been doing, the GS needs to be a clear step above the ES in all areas yet not carry such a big premium in order for it to be successful. Other brands don't have the GS/ES problem because they don't offer a vehicle between their entry level sedan and mid level sedan and people will buy MB/BMW just on brand alone as well as attractive lease deals, Lexus is really the only one that does 2 very similar sedans size/power/luxury wise yet the prices are very different.
Have you checked the sales of the GS hybrid, they are basically non existent, they sell about 5 or so a month, same with all brands that offer a hybrid luxury sedan, they sold many more 8 cylinders when they had the option and buyers felt like they were getting much more for their money when they stepped up to a 8 cylinder. Hybrids for all luxury sedans simply don't sell so I don't know where you are getting that people are getting more environmentally friends(hybrids do not help the environment in any way). People are actually avoiding hybrid Luxury sedans to where their sales are pretty much non existent. A hybrid is not smart at all based on sales numbers, a 8 cylinder that did not have a big premium in price would be smart. The EPA is dropping the 54.5 mpg regulations in the US and there is no hybrid luxury sedan or 4 or 6 cylinder that would meet those ridiculous standards anyway.
I don't think they should do a de contented GS if they do another one unless it is priced very close to a similarly equipped ES, the problem with a de contented GS is buyers will just choose a ES instead which is exactly what they have been doing, the GS needs to be a clear step above the ES in all areas yet not carry such a big premium in order for it to be successful. Other brands don't have the GS/ES problem because they don't offer a vehicle between their entry level sedan and mid level sedan and people will buy MB/BMW just on brand alone as well as attractive lease deals, Lexus is really the only one that does 2 very similar sedans size/power/luxury wise yet the prices are very different.
Lexus is still the cheapest to maintain or repair than all of the German competition. German cars are more likely to break down and repair/maintenance will cost more. That's just simply a fact.
IE: Someone needed their Audi RS5 timing belt replaced after only 30K miles. This costed the owner 3.7K exactly with parts and labor at a Audi dealer. German cars are not cheap to repair or maintain ever....
Ridiolcous standards? 54MPG by 2050 is consider nice from Obama. There are countries with harsher regulations. The Trump and the EPA's Scott Pruitt is corrupt as hell. They removing the 54MPG regulations by 2050 won't bring your V8, V10, V12 or Hummers back. Hell - Trump, according to an article, wants to impose higher MPG restrictions on foreign cars to help American businesses. He wants to give American car companies at little regulation as possible to improve their business over foreign cars. Will people in America pay more for a more fuel-efficient foreign car? Yes. As much as a "petrol-head" as I am, I even admitted the world is changing. The V8 will not come back - not when a TTV6 can produce more power and be more fuel efficient. Just because people aren't buying the hybrid GS doesn't mean people isn't getting more environmentally friendly. It doesn't mean hybrid sales are bad either. Hybrid sales are booming in more "entry-level" cars. Hybrid offered in a Luxuy Sedan is a niche sale as much as the V8 is. I think it's better to offer a hybrid that is forward thinking niche versus offering a backward thinking V8 niche. A hybrid is smarter in terms of business because it'll be cheaper for Toyota/Lexus. They can still the hybrid internationally while they can't with the V8 - especially with the world putting out harsher restrictions every year.
I do, however, agree with everything you said at the end. The problem with the GS is that Lexus made a mistake of having a ES model with similar options priced cheaper than the GS. The second problem, like you said, it's brand. This what I have saying all over my previous comments. People, majority of the time, are buying MB/BMW over Lexus because of brand and good lease deals. IE: This is why there are a boatloads of no options or minimally packaged 3 Series running around everywhere. People would rather get a empty 3 Series over a loaded Lexus IS. Lexus needs to improve their marketing and market placement. The average consumer just thinks MB/BMW is a better brand and better car because it's a MB/BMW.
04-09-18, 02:17 PM
#257
Lexus Test Driver
^
The consumer is not as dumb as you think.
There is a reason Lexus became Lexus and it was due to innovation, performance, tech that for those times was superior to all the competition and at a much lower price with amazing reliability.
Look at Volvo cars, New Navigator, Kia Stinger, G90 etc - consumers see that they are special and the product sells itself.
There maybe some poseurs that lease a C300 or BMW 320i etc just for the brand.
But people that drop $60k+ are smart and can sense a half baked product a mile away.
GS in its current form is a OK car but its not great and definitely is not in same league as Eclass or 5series.
Would it sell better without the ES? 100% it would.
But the question still remains what can Lexus do to get those 5,000 buyers that get Eclass/5series every month and get the GS. The answer is simple - Build a better car. The execution is hard though and requires lots of $$$ and years of commitment.
The consumer is not as dumb as you think.
There is a reason Lexus became Lexus and it was due to innovation, performance, tech that for those times was superior to all the competition and at a much lower price with amazing reliability.
Look at Volvo cars, New Navigator, Kia Stinger, G90 etc - consumers see that they are special and the product sells itself.
There maybe some poseurs that lease a C300 or BMW 320i etc just for the brand.
But people that drop $60k+ are smart and can sense a half baked product a mile away.
GS in its current form is a OK car but its not great and definitely is not in same league as Eclass or 5series.
Would it sell better without the ES? 100% it would.
But the question still remains what can Lexus do to get those 5,000 buyers that get Eclass/5series every month and get the GS. The answer is simple - Build a better car. The execution is hard though and requires lots of $$$ and years of commitment.
04-09-18, 03:41 PM
#258
Lexus Test Driver
^
The consumer is not as dumb as you think.
There is a reason Lexus became Lexus and it was due to innovation, performance, tech that for those times was superior to all the competition and at a much lower price with amazing reliability.
Look at Volvo cars, New Navigator, Kia Stinger, G90 etc - consumers see that they are special and the product sells itself.
There maybe some poseurs that lease a C300 or BMW 320i etc just for the brand.
But people that drop $60k+ are smart and can sense a half baked product a mile away.
GS in its current form is a OK car but its not great and definitely is not in same league as Eclass or 5series.
Would it sell better without the ES? 100% it would.
But the question still remains what can Lexus do to get those 5,000 buyers that get Eclass/5series every month and get the GS. The answer is simple - Build a better car. The execution is hard though and requires lots of $$$ and years of commitment.
The consumer is not as dumb as you think.
There is a reason Lexus became Lexus and it was due to innovation, performance, tech that for those times was superior to all the competition and at a much lower price with amazing reliability.
Look at Volvo cars, New Navigator, Kia Stinger, G90 etc - consumers see that they are special and the product sells itself.
There maybe some poseurs that lease a C300 or BMW 320i etc just for the brand.
But people that drop $60k+ are smart and can sense a half baked product a mile away.
GS in its current form is a OK car but its not great and definitely is not in same league as Eclass or 5series.
Would it sell better without the ES? 100% it would.
But the question still remains what can Lexus do to get those 5,000 buyers that get Eclass/5series every month and get the GS. The answer is simple - Build a better car. The execution is hard though and requires lots of $$$ and years of commitment.
Heres the thing with the KIA stinger and Genesis G90. They are facing the same struggles Lexus is facing with MB/BMW. The average person will rather buy a 40K Lexus instead of a 40K KIA Stinger or G90 - the Stinger will simply not sell well because it's a KIA. It'll have niche buyers but it won't be masses. Similarity - Lexus can make an amazing car at good value but MB/BMW will get the benefit of the doubt for being a better car to the average buyer because of brand. This is why the 2014 BMW 3 Series outsold the 2014 Lexus IS. At the time - the 2014 Lexus IS was a new car, better car and cheaper as well compared to the 2014 BMW 3 Series.
No - there isn't "some" people that buy no option or minimally packages 3 Series or C-Classes. There is a good "chunk" of people that do.
I disagree. It doesn't matter what level of income the person is in. Just because they have enough to spend on a 60K car doesn't mean they are good with cars or understand cars. Income doesn't play a factor in car knowledge. This is why salesmen/women tells you HP # instead of tq # when selling the car's performance. This why majority of Ferrari owners at car meets read to you specs when talking about cars. This is why when the Nissan GTR first came out - you had wealthy Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche owners bashing it for being an expensive Nissan. The GTR wasn't a half-baked product. The point is - wealthy or not - the average consumer thinks the same way.
I never said the loaded GS was a better product than a loaded 5 Series or E-Class. However - a similarity priced GS is better than a 5 Series or E-Class because it'll have more options. But people would rather take less options and buy the 5 Series or EClass because they think it's a better car to due the brand.
04-09-18, 03:48 PM
#259
Lexus Fanatic
The consumer is not dumb as you think? The average is 100% pure stupidity. (I don't meant that with offense - apologies if it's offensive) Second - we are car enthusiasts so we understand information the average buyer don't. Here's a good example: Apple iPhone always gets marketed as if they have the latest and best tech that Andriod never got. However - iPhones, for the most part, use outdated tech that Andriod had for years; such as wireless charging. The average consumers eats up the marketing and buys iPhone by the boatloads. They wait in for days for them.....
Heres the thing with the KIA stinger and Genesis G90. They are facing the same struggles Lexus is facing with MB/BMW. The average person will rather buy a 40K Lexus instead of a 40K KIA Stinger or G90 - the Stinger will simply not sell well because it's a KIA. It'll have niche buyers but it won't be masses. Similarity - Lexus can make an amazing car at good value but MB/BMW will get the benefit of the doubt for being a better car to the average buyer because of brand. This is why the 2014 BMW 3 Series outsold the 2014 Lexus IS. At the time - the 2014 Lexus IS was a new car, better car and cheaper as well compared to the 2014 BMW 3 Series.
No - there isn't "some" people that buy no option or minimally packages 3 Series or C-Classes. There is a good "chunk" of people that do.
I disagree. It doesn't matter what level of income the person is in. Just because they have enough to spend on a 60K car doesn't mean they are good with cars or understand cars. Income doesn't play a factor in car knowledge. This is why salesmen/women tells you HP # instead of tq # when selling the car's performance. This why majority of Ferrari owners at car meets read to you specs when talking about cars. This is why when the Nissan GTR first came out - you had wealthy Ferrari, Lamborghini and Porsche owners bashing it for being an expensive Nissan. The GTR wasn't a half-baked product. The point is - wealthy or not - the average consumer thinks the same way.
I never said the loaded GS was a better product than a loaded 5 Series or E-Class. However - a similarity priced GS is better than a 5 Series or E-Class because it'll have more options. But people would rather take less options and buy the 5 Series or EClass because they think it's a better car to due the brand.
04-09-18, 03:53 PM
#260
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Ok then
... back to the GS, I'm wondering what Lexus can really do to make a more competitive offering.
Been a while since i looked at bmw's 5 series info and presentation here... https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5-series/sedan.html
and compared it to the gs info and presentation here http://www.lexus.com/models/GS
the info and emphasis on performance and luxury on each is similar, although the v8 option on the 5 page provides some wow. I've never understood why lexus keeps gs-f separate as it's the only v8 option but to be fair bmw keeps the m5 separate too.
but in comparing these two pages, i'm struck by two things... 1 while i think neither looks good in base trim, i give the nod to bmw and i like the m-sport look way better than the gs f-sport which lexus uses a quote to describe as bold and not for the shy. and 2 i think the center console area with huge controller hand rest, scratch pad, and leather shift boot around auto shifter looks archaic and inefficient. Do they reverse the position of those on rhd versions?
apart from that they're similar. I've not driven either so can't comment with experience but based on what i've read i expect the turbo 4 bmw experience to be better than lexus and the turbo 6 to blow away the aged lexus v6 (smooth and refined it is though).
so it comes down to design, controls and power and to me lexus loses on all 3.
mercedes for the e class, very differently, emphasizes safety, luxury, and technology here. https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehic.../bodystyle-SDN
They don't have the performance cred outside the amg models so their presentation is smart, so you get the impression of innovative leader.
lexus can't compete on features, not offering air suspension, more autonomous features, etc. and the e class is very conservatively styled unlike the 'fearless' design lexus describes. So i don't think mb has anything to worry about with the gs.
lexus has to decide where and how to compete and hit it out of the park, or go home.
... back to the GS, I'm wondering what Lexus can really do to make a more competitive offering.Been a while since i looked at bmw's 5 series info and presentation here... https://www.bmwusa.com/vehicles/5-series/sedan.html
and compared it to the gs info and presentation here http://www.lexus.com/models/GS
the info and emphasis on performance and luxury on each is similar, although the v8 option on the 5 page provides some wow. I've never understood why lexus keeps gs-f separate as it's the only v8 option but to be fair bmw keeps the m5 separate too.
but in comparing these two pages, i'm struck by two things... 1 while i think neither looks good in base trim, i give the nod to bmw and i like the m-sport look way better than the gs f-sport which lexus uses a quote to describe as bold and not for the shy. and 2 i think the center console area with huge controller hand rest, scratch pad, and leather shift boot around auto shifter looks archaic and inefficient. Do they reverse the position of those on rhd versions?
apart from that they're similar. I've not driven either so can't comment with experience but based on what i've read i expect the turbo 4 bmw experience to be better than lexus and the turbo 6 to blow away the aged lexus v6 (smooth and refined it is though).
so it comes down to design, controls and power and to me lexus loses on all 3.
mercedes for the e class, very differently, emphasizes safety, luxury, and technology here. https://www.mbusa.com/mercedes/vehic.../bodystyle-SDN
They don't have the performance cred outside the amg models so their presentation is smart, so you get the impression of innovative leader.
lexus can't compete on features, not offering air suspension, more autonomous features, etc. and the e class is very conservatively styled unlike the 'fearless' design lexus describes. So i don't think mb has anything to worry about with the gs.
lexus has to decide where and how to compete and hit it out of the park, or go home.
and i don't need to read 'stick a 500hp twin turbo v8 in it and price it at 30k' because that's not possible with a level of luxury it needs.
04-09-18, 04:09 PM
#261
Lexus Fanatic
My point was not necessarily to build complete clones of what was on the market 15-20 years ago (today's vehicles, for instance, have many more safety and electronic features)....but just to use solid materials like Lexus did back then.
04-09-18, 05:02 PM
#262
Lexus Fanatic
Modern Lexus cost more to repair than older Lexus because it's newer. This is the same case with German cars. Newer cars will always cost more to repair because of inflation, labor and new better material in the car that will likely cost more to replace. However - the cost of maintenance on modern Lexus is likely similar to the cost of older Lexus.
Lexus is still the cheapest to maintain or repair than all of the German competition. German cars are more likely to break down and repair/maintenance will cost more. That's just simply a fact.
IE: Someone needed their Audi RS5 timing belt replaced after only 30K miles. This costed the owner 3.7K exactly with parts and labor at a Audi dealer. German cars are not cheap to repair or maintain ever....
Ridiolcous standards? 54MPG by 2050 is consider nice from Obama. There are countries with harsher regulations. The Trump and the EPA's Scott Pruitt is corrupt as hell. They removing the 54MPG regulations by 2050 won't bring your V8, V10, V12 or Hummers back. Hell - Trump, according to an article, wants to impose higher MPG restrictions on foreign cars to help American businesses. He wants to give American car companies at little regulation as possible to improve their business over foreign cars. Will people in America pay more for a more fuel-efficient foreign car? Yes. As much as a "petrol-head" as I am, I even admitted the world is changing. The V8 will not come back - not when a TTV6 can produce more power and be more fuel efficient. Just because people aren't buying the hybrid GS doesn't mean people isn't getting more environmentally friendly. It doesn't mean hybrid sales are bad either. Hybrid sales are booming in more "entry-level" cars. Hybrid offered in a Luxuy Sedan is a niche sale as much as the V8 is. I think it's better to offer a hybrid that is forward thinking niche versus offering a backward thinking V8 niche. A hybrid is smarter in terms of business because it'll be cheaper for Toyota/Lexus. They can still the hybrid internationally while they can't with the V8 - especially with the world putting out harsher restrictions every year.
I do, however, agree with everything you said at the end. The problem with the GS is that Lexus made a mistake of having a ES model with similar options priced cheaper than the GS. The second problem, like you said, it's brand. This what I have saying all over my previous comments. People, majority of the time, are buying MB/BMW over Lexus because of brand and good lease deals. IE: This is why there are a boatloads of no options or minimally packaged 3 Series running around everywhere. People would rather get a empty 3 Series over a loaded Lexus IS. Lexus needs to improve their marketing and market placement. The average consumer just thinks MB/BMW is a better brand and better car because it's a MB/BMW.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...vels/87990334/
04-09-18, 05:45 PM
#263
Lexus Champion
04-09-18, 06:54 PM
#264
Driver School Candidate
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Of course. We will agree to disagree. We all have our opinions and we are just having a friendly conversation.
Good example. The Lexus ES of today is 10x better than the Lexus of yesterday. I want to add that the older Lexus ES felt more like a Camry than the current model of the Lexus ES. Even though the Lexus ES and the Camry share a platform, Lexus is getting better at making them different.
1)
Point of Contention the N20 is an older motor then new IS 8AR-FTS engine, it also should be noted that BMW released its successor engine to replace the n20 called the B48 in 2015. In the US market was the only market that the B48 did not replace the N20 motor (320i) while 330i is running the new 48. BMW is technically on its second generation of turbo 4s
Yes - the B48 was introduced in 2015. The 8AR-FTS was introduced in 2015 for the first time in 2015 too, with the Lexus NX200T. But how does this make the Lexus' engines old? BMW is on its 4th generation turbos is irrelevant to the conversation of whether or not Lexus engines are old. BMW has been doing turbo engines for a long time - that's the only reason they are in 4th gen.
Again - "old" engines doesn't make a car brand "average" or a car "average". The STI has a 10 year old engine. Is the STI an "average" car?
Lexus engines are old based on whats currently available. For a motor thats been released after everyone else, how does the torque come on after everyone's else 1,650 for Lexus while 1,250 for BMW. Most "dumb customers" as you mentioned need to access that power at lower RPMs in day 2 day driving.
2)
Point of Contention the OP did not compare a mid size salon to a boutique high performance marque. The point was to note that vehicles in the same category just dont have customization in the engine department that are exciting. One can buy multiple grades of engines from BMW 5 series catologs but only buy a turbo 4 or NA 6 in the majority of the lineup in the Lexus (The GSF has NA8). Average is of course in reference to how the mid tier GS with its NA6 only produces sub 300 lbs of torque while the 5 series mid tier produces 300+. In addition GS-F's so called M-level performance competitor produces less tq then a Non Full M M550i.
No. OP didn't. But that wasn't my point. My point was just because a car company lacks "options" doesn't make them "average". You can clearly be good borand while selling products with minimal options. Would people call Tesla "average" for only offering 3 models?
The current model GS-F competed with the F10 M5. You are comparing the outgoing GS-F to a newly designed G30 M550i - so obviously its faster.
My reference to was not the sheer number of vehicles making them average but the customization of said line. Lexus has a huge portfolio but in that portfolio the options are limited and they`d rather you upgrade classes of vehicles then move horizontally in the same vehicle.
IE: If in 2016 I wanted a mid size saloon with a v8....nothing. In lexus I would need to move vertically to the V8 powered LS. At say BMW you CAN buy a 550i F10.
In regards to the Tesla, you have different levels of the same vehicle 70 80 90d?
Finally in reference to the GSF vs F10 5 series, check the numbers and the 550i, non M5 made more tq then a GSF. So the GSF was slower generation to generation and now even slower with the current g30
5)
Point of contention would be if you have to takeoff a judgment criteria ("google overlay off") that intern equates to hiding shortcomings, a common marketing tactic.
"Hiding shortcomings"? No.... The OP was specifically talking about Lexus navigation graphics. So we should compare it to Audi's Navigation graphics, right? Google Earth overlay isn't Audi's Navigation graphics - its Google's graphics. If we kept it "on" for the comparison, we would be comparing Lexus' Navi graphics to Google Earth's graphics - not Audi's graphics. This is why you need Google overlay off to be proper - to be properly compared to Audi's actual navigation graphics. Furthermore - Google Earth overlay cost a couple hundred dollars per 6 months. Back to the point - Lexus' navigation graphics is on-par with BMW and better than MB and Audi's navigation graphics.
Simple question, can the latest gen of the lexus navigation system integrate google earth overlays similar to whats available in the other marques?
6)
Point of contention would Audi package their vehicles differently. longitudinal vs transverse
That would only be true of Audi packaged all of their FWD cars using the longitudinal set-up. The Audi A3 and Q3 both use the transverse FWD layout. The Lexus NX, RX and ES use the transverse layout. I want to ask - why wasn't Audi brought into the conversation for having too many "FWD" when they basically offer only FWD/AWD. Again - how is Lexus "average" if Audi is also guilty of offering transverse FWD layout as well?
Agreed almost every luxury marque contains a FWD vehicle.
Actually - Lexus vehicles of today are just as reliable if not more reliable than the past. Especially with modern technology helping it along the way. Secondly - of course Lexus vehicles today cost more to maintain compared to older Lexus models. Its just like how newer BMW are more expensive to repair than older BMWs. Newer cars are always more expensive to repair. However - Lexus is still the cheapest in terms of repairs compared to its competitors.
Agreed. Quality and performance needs to be more distinguished from the ES.
Agreed. They should drop the Turbo 4. However - I disagree about dropping the hybrid or offering a V8. The world is changing - majority of the country will be imposing stricter EPAs and people are getting more environmentally friendly. A Hybrid offering is a smart choice and offering a V8 is not smart.
Agreed. GS should be closer to the LS in terms of everything.
Some-what agree. They still need a "bland" one but a better "bland" one. They need something to lure buyers to buy the base model. Hell - the MB E-Class didn't come standard with LED lighting. That's bland as hell. People still bought it like the boatloads.
Good example. The Lexus ES of today is 10x better than the Lexus of yesterday. I want to add that the older Lexus ES felt more like a Camry than the current model of the Lexus ES. Even though the Lexus ES and the Camry share a platform, Lexus is getting better at making them different.
1)
Yes - the B48 was introduced in 2015. The 8AR-FTS was introduced in 2015 for the first time in 2015 too, with the Lexus NX200T. But how does this make the Lexus' engines old? BMW is on its 4th generation turbos is irrelevant to the conversation of whether or not Lexus engines are old. BMW has been doing turbo engines for a long time - that's the only reason they are in 4th gen.
Again - "old" engines doesn't make a car brand "average" or a car "average". The STI has a 10 year old engine. Is the STI an "average" car?
Lexus engines are old based on whats currently available. For a motor thats been released after everyone else, how does the torque come on after everyone's else 1,650 for Lexus while 1,250 for BMW. Most "dumb customers" as you mentioned need to access that power at lower RPMs in day 2 day driving.
2)
No. OP didn't. But that wasn't my point. My point was just because a car company lacks "options" doesn't make them "average". You can clearly be good borand while selling products with minimal options. Would people call Tesla "average" for only offering 3 models?
The current model GS-F competed with the F10 M5. You are comparing the outgoing GS-F to a newly designed G30 M550i - so obviously its faster.
My reference to was not the sheer number of vehicles making them average but the customization of said line. Lexus has a huge portfolio but in that portfolio the options are limited and they`d rather you upgrade classes of vehicles then move horizontally in the same vehicle.
IE: If in 2016 I wanted a mid size saloon with a v8....nothing. In lexus I would need to move vertically to the V8 powered LS. At say BMW you CAN buy a 550i F10.
In regards to the Tesla, you have different levels of the same vehicle 70 80 90d?
Finally in reference to the GSF vs F10 5 series, check the numbers and the 550i, non M5 made more tq then a GSF. So the GSF was slower generation to generation and now even slower with the current g30
5)
"Hiding shortcomings"? No.... The OP was specifically talking about Lexus navigation graphics. So we should compare it to Audi's Navigation graphics, right? Google Earth overlay isn't Audi's Navigation graphics - its Google's graphics. If we kept it "on" for the comparison, we would be comparing Lexus' Navi graphics to Google Earth's graphics - not Audi's graphics. This is why you need Google overlay off to be proper - to be properly compared to Audi's actual navigation graphics. Furthermore - Google Earth overlay cost a couple hundred dollars per 6 months. Back to the point - Lexus' navigation graphics is on-par with BMW and better than MB and Audi's navigation graphics.
Simple question, can the latest gen of the lexus navigation system integrate google earth overlays similar to whats available in the other marques?
6)
That would only be true of Audi packaged all of their FWD cars using the longitudinal set-up. The Audi A3 and Q3 both use the transverse FWD layout. The Lexus NX, RX and ES use the transverse layout. I want to ask - why wasn't Audi brought into the conversation for having too many "FWD" when they basically offer only FWD/AWD. Again - how is Lexus "average" if Audi is also guilty of offering transverse FWD layout as well?
Agreed almost every luxury marque contains a FWD vehicle.
Actually - Lexus vehicles of today are just as reliable if not more reliable than the past. Especially with modern technology helping it along the way. Secondly - of course Lexus vehicles today cost more to maintain compared to older Lexus models. Its just like how newer BMW are more expensive to repair than older BMWs. Newer cars are always more expensive to repair. However - Lexus is still the cheapest in terms of repairs compared to its competitors.
Agreed. Quality and performance needs to be more distinguished from the ES.
Agreed. They should drop the Turbo 4. However - I disagree about dropping the hybrid or offering a V8. The world is changing - majority of the country will be imposing stricter EPAs and people are getting more environmentally friendly. A Hybrid offering is a smart choice and offering a V8 is not smart.
Agreed. GS should be closer to the LS in terms of everything.
Some-what agree. They still need a "bland" one but a better "bland" one. They need something to lure buyers to buy the base model. Hell - the MB E-Class didn't come standard with LED lighting. That's bland as hell. People still bought it like the boatloads.
04-09-18, 10:30 PM
#265
04-09-18, 11:44 PM
#266
Lexus Test Driver
Great comments. Most of what you say holds true. There are a few segments where Lexus can charge more or a lot for their products. GX and LX are marked up Toyota’s people really like them. ES and RX also do well, they are not really a competitive car towards the Germans but moreso a car that appeals to middle America.
Agreed. The GX/LX is marked up but they are insanely popular like the ES/RX.
The RX is insanely popular overall - Lexus sells over 100K of these every year. I honestly think the Lexus RX is such a great car (my family owned 2 generations of the RX), its 10 times better than the BMW X5s. It doubles the BMW X5 sales numbers every year as well. The BMW X5 is in direct competition with the RX - its just that the RX is better.
54.5mpg was for 2025 not 2050. Getting rid of that ridiculous standard will allow larger engined cars to exist and allow cars with similar powerplants as today's cars to exist. There is literally nothing on the road that could meet those standards aside from full electrics so even vehicles today that are fuel efficient would still get be in violation and get fines. Those ridiculous standards would force people into much smaller, light cars with only weak 2-4 cylinders and hybrids and electrics at least the ones that don't get passes and exemptions which likely means big SUV's will still exist while everyone else is forced into tiny little cars or hybrids with small engines or electrics which people clearly do not want. Luxury cars and sports cars would not be able to really exist with those standards.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...vels/87990334/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/money...vels/87990334/
I still maintain though. Hybrids, Turbos and etc... are the future. Its likely V8, V10, V12 are ever going to make a big comeback. Sooner or later the BMW TTV8s will phase out too.
But my point is that the GT1 and GT2 Stinger cost 46K-50K OTD. At that price, people will be looking at a Lexus IS, BMW 3 Series, Audi A4, Infiniti Q50 3.0T Silver Sport, C300, and Acura TLX. While the car they choose over the KIA depends on the costumer, the reason the KIA stinger will get looked pass is because of the brand. It will be hard for people to justify spending 46K plus on a KIA. Its the perception of the brand and our society. IE: What sounds better? "I worked my *** off for 5 years and saved up for a KIA" or "I worked my *** off for 5 years and saved up for a Lexus/BMW/Audi/MB/etc..."
This is similar to the Hyundai Genesis Coupe. The Genesis Coupe was suppose to be the "G-Killer". Did it kill the G Coupe/Sedan? Nope.
I think people will rather buy the Infiniti Q50T 3.0T Silver Sport (which can had a discount) over the 50K GT2 if they are looking for Twin Turbo performance.
1)
Lexus engines are old based on whats currently available. For a motor thats been released after everyone else, how does the torque come on after everyone's else 1,650 for Lexus while 1,250 for BMW. Most "dumb customers" as you mentioned need to access that power at lower RPMs in day 2 day driving.
This statement you are moving the subject (goalpost) to fit your narrative when I clearly proved to you and OP that Lexus engines are not in fact "old". OP suggested Lexus engines are "old". The definition of "old" is regarding to age. What you are doing here is linking age to performance. You basically saying Lexus engines are under-powered so the are old. That makes no sense at all. The STI engine is 10 years old - is it under-powered? No. Hell no. Its still a very fast and powerful engine. Age doesn't equal performance nor performance equals age. While higher performance models of Lexus, such as the GS-F and RC-F are slow compared to their competitors, the rest of the line-up's performance is right they should be. The Turbo 4 is faster than the 320i, Q50 2.0T, Acura TLX I4, and Audi A4 FWD 2.0T. While the 2GR-FKS in the Lexus IS350 is faster than the C300, Audi A4 Quattro, and Acura TLX, on-par with the BMW 330i, and slower than the Infiniti Q50 3.0T. So in theory - the Lexus non-performance line of cars are doing just fine in numbers.
The average consumer is dumb. That's a fact. Take me for example - I don't know jack-crap about phones. So I'll be considered one of those shoppers that buy what people say is good or what marketing tell me its good. Just like how average people don't know crap about phones - average people don't know crap about cars. So in fact - these average consumers will likely don't even know they use low-torque for daily driving around town. How do you expect them to when the average consumer still think HP is number that determines acceleration? There is a reason why the dealerships use HP numbers to sell their cars because majority of the people buying cars average folks - not car enthusiast like you and I.
2)
My reference to was not the sheer number of vehicles making them average but the customization of said line. Lexus has a huge portfolio but in that portfolio the options are limited and they`d rather you upgrade classes of vehicles then move horizontally in the same vehicle.
IE: If in 2016 I wanted a mid size saloon with a v8....nothing. In lexus I would need to move vertically to the V8 powered LS. At say BMW you CAN buy a 550i F10.
In regards to the Tesla, you have different levels of the same vehicle 70 80 90d?
Finally in reference to the GSF vs F10 5 series, check the numbers and the 550i, non M5 made more tq then a GSF. So the GSF was slower generation to generation and now even slower with the current g30
Still - the question remains: how is the lack offering vehicle engine options make Lexus "average". Is not like Lexus is offering few options either. It might not be options you don't like, but Lexus has options.
IE: The 2018 Lexus GS offers a Turbo 4, V6, Hybrid V6, and a V8 from the GS-F. That's a total of 4 power-train options. While the Audi A6 only has 3 engine options including the S6 engine. Where's the comment about how Audi lacks engine options?
Yes. Tesla has different levels of the same vehicle. So does the Lexus GS. What's your point here?
Let me start off by saying - the GS-F is slow compared to the M5. Just like how the RC-F is slow compared to the M3/M4. The M Cars are just better. The M Cars are better than the AMG line and the RS line. BMW M Series is the definition of performance saloons. But - that doesn't mean a slower car, like the GS-F, isn't the M5's competition. Lexus F line is a direct competitor to the BMW M line, RS line and AMG line. Is it better? That's debatable. I would say the M line is the best. My point is - no matter what - the GS-F is the M5's competition despite speed/engine numbers.
I'm well full aware of the F10 550i has more torque. It had a TTV8 while the GS-F ran a NA V8 - so obviously it'll have more torque. While we are here throwing numbers out, the Lexus GS-F has more HP.
5)
"Hiding shortcomings"? No.... The OP was specifically talking about Lexus navigation graphics. So we should compare it to Audi's Navigation graphics, right? Google Earth overlay isn't Audi's Navigation graphics - its Google's graphics. If we kept it "on" for the comparison, we would be comparing Lexus' Navi graphics to Google Earth's graphics - not Audi's graphics. This is why you need Google overlay off to be proper - to be properly compared to Audi's actual navigation graphics. Furthermore - Google Earth overlay cost a couple hundred dollars per 6 months. Back to the point - Lexus' navigation graphics is on-par with BMW and better than MB and Audi's navigation graphics.
Simple question, can the latest gen of the lexus navigation system integrate google earth overlays similar to whats available in the other marques?
How is your question relevant to what is being discussed? OP (RNM GS3) stated the the Lexus Navigation graphic sucks. I contested and say it isn't. That means we should compare standard navigation graphics. If we compare the Lexus navigation graphics to the Audi navigation graphics with Google Earth overlay, that would be compared the Lexus navi graphics to Google's graphics - not Audis. The point is: Lexus navi graphics is on-par with BMW and its better than MB and Audi.
However - to answer your question. No. The Lexus Enform systems do not have the ability to integrate Google Earth overlays. Just like how Acura, Infiniti, BMW, and MB don't have the ability to integrate Google Earth overlay. This feature is only unique to Audi. Its much nicer step up than Audi's standard Navigation Graphics. However - it is a waste of money to spend a couple hundred dollars per 6 months just to dress up the navi graphics.
6)
Agreed almost every luxury marque contains a FWD vehicle.
Exactly - even the BMW X1 and X2 are transverse FWD layout.
04-10-18, 07:15 AM
#267
Pole Position
Agreed. The GX/LX is marked up but they are insanely popular like the ES/RX.
The RX is insanely popular overall - Lexus sells over 100K of these every year. I honestly think the Lexus RX is such a great car (my family owned 2 generations of the RX), its 10 times better than the BMW X5s. It doubles the BMW X5 sales numbers every year as well. The BMW X5 is in direct competition with the RX - its just that the RX is better.
Ahh. My bad. I was wrong. I thought it was 2050. Thanks for the info. Then I'll agree - 2025 to meet a 54.5MPG restriction is impossible. While I don't agree with the removal of the restrictions, I think it should be lower than 54.5MPG.
I still maintain though. Hybrids, Turbos and etc... are the future. Its likely V8, V10, V12 are ever going to make a big comeback. Sooner or later the BMW TTV8s will phase out too.
Yes. The KIA Stinger is on a up-trend on sales - averaging about 1K per month. 1K per month is niche sales figures.
But my point is that the GT1 and GT2 Stinger cost 46K-50K OTD. At that price, people will be looking at a Lexus IS, BMW 3 Series, Audi A4, Infiniti Q50 3.0T Silver Sport, C300, and Acura TLX. While the car they choose over the KIA depends on the costumer, the reason the KIA stinger will get looked pass is because of the brand. It will be hard for people to justify spending 46K plus on a KIA. Its the perception of the brand and our society. IE: What sounds better? "I worked my *** off for 5 years and saved up for a KIA" or "I worked my *** off for 5 years and saved up for a Lexus/BMW/Audi/MB/etc..."
This is similar to the Hyundai Genesis Coupe. The Genesis Coupe was suppose to be the "G-Killer". Did it kill the G Coupe/Sedan? Nope.
I think people will rather buy the Infiniti Q50T 3.0T Silver Sport (which can had a discount) over the 50K GT2 if they are looking for Twin Turbo performance.
1)
Lexus engines are old based on whats currently available. For a motor thats been released after everyone else, how does the torque come on after everyone's else 1,650 for Lexus while 1,250 for BMW. Most "dumb customers" as you mentioned need to access that power at lower RPMs in day 2 day driving.
This statement you are moving the subject (goalpost) to fit your narrative when I clearly proved to you and OP that Lexus engines are not in fact "old". OP suggested Lexus engines are "old". The definition of "old" is regarding to age. What you are doing here is linking age to performance. You basically saying Lexus engines are under-powered so the are old. That makes no sense at all. The STI engine is 10 years old - is it under-powered? No. Hell no. Its still a very fast and powerful engine. Age doesn't equal performance nor performance equals age. While higher performance models of Lexus, such as the GS-F and RC-F are slow compared to their competitors, the rest of the line-up's performance is right they should be. The Turbo 4 is faster than the 320i, Q50 2.0T, Acura TLX I4, and Audi A4 FWD 2.0T. While the 2GR-FKS in the Lexus IS350 is faster than the C300, Audi A4 Quattro, and Acura TLX, on-par with the BMW 330i, and slower than the Infiniti Q50 3.0T. So in theory - the Lexus non-performance line of cars are doing just fine in numbers.
The average consumer is dumb. That's a fact. Take me for example - I don't know jack-crap about phones. So I'll be considered one of those shoppers that buy what people say is good or what marketing tell me its good. Just like how average people don't know crap about phones - average people don't know crap about cars. So in fact - these average consumers will likely don't even know they use low-torque for daily driving around town. How do you expect them to when the average consumer still think HP is number that determines acceleration? There is a reason why the dealerships use HP numbers to sell their cars because majority of the people buying cars average folks - not car enthusiast like you and I.
2)
My reference to was not the sheer number of vehicles making them average but the customization of said line. Lexus has a huge portfolio but in that portfolio the options are limited and they`d rather you upgrade classes of vehicles then move horizontally in the same vehicle.
IE: If in 2016 I wanted a mid size saloon with a v8....nothing. In lexus I would need to move vertically to the V8 powered LS. At say BMW you CAN buy a 550i F10.
In regards to the Tesla, you have different levels of the same vehicle 70 80 90d?
Finally in reference to the GSF vs F10 5 series, check the numbers and the 550i, non M5 made more tq then a GSF. So the GSF was slower generation to generation and now even slower with the current g30
Still - the question remains: how is the lack offering vehicle engine options make Lexus "average". Is not like Lexus is offering few options either. It might not be options you don't like, but Lexus has options.
IE: The 2018 Lexus GS offers a Turbo 4, V6, Hybrid V6, and a V8 from the GS-F. That's a total of 4 power-train options. While the Audi A6 only has 3 engine options including the S6 engine. Where's the comment about how Audi lacks engine options?
Yes. Tesla has different levels of the same vehicle. So does the Lexus GS. What's your point here?
Let me start off by saying - the GS-F is slow compared to the M5. Just like how the RC-F is slow compared to the M3/M4. The M Cars are just better. The M Cars are better than the AMG line and the RS line. BMW M Series is the definition of performance saloons. But - that doesn't mean a slower car, like the GS-F, isn't the M5's competition. Lexus F line is a direct competitor to the BMW M line, RS line and AMG line. Is it better? That's debatable. I would say the M line is the best. My point is - no matter what - the GS-F is the M5's competition despite speed/engine numbers.
I'm well full aware of the F10 550i has more torque. It had a TTV8 while the GS-F ran a NA V8 - so obviously it'll have more torque. While we are here throwing numbers out, the Lexus GS-F has more HP.
5)
Point of contention would be if you have to takeoff a judgment criteria ("google overlay off") that intern equates to hiding shortcomings, a common marketing tactic.
"Hiding shortcomings"? No.... The OP was specifically talking about Lexus navigation graphics. So we should compare it to Audi's Navigation graphics, right? Google Earth overlay isn't Audi's Navigation graphics - its Google's graphics. If we kept it "on" for the comparison, we would be comparing Lexus' Navi graphics to Google Earth's graphics - not Audi's graphics. This is why you need Google overlay off to be proper - to be properly compared to Audi's actual navigation graphics. Furthermore - Google Earth overlay cost a couple hundred dollars per 6 months. Back to the point - Lexus' navigation graphics is on-par with BMW and better than MB and Audi's navigation graphics.
Simple question, can the latest gen of the lexus navigation system integrate google earth overlays similar to whats available in the other marques?
How is your question relevant to what is being discussed? OP (RNM GS3) stated the the Lexus Navigation graphic sucks. I contested and say it isn't. That means we should compare standard navigation graphics. If we compare the Lexus navigation graphics to the Audi navigation graphics with Google Earth overlay, that would be compared the Lexus navi graphics to Google's graphics - not Audis. The point is: Lexus navi graphics is on-par with BMW and its better than MB and Audi.
However - to answer your question. No. The Lexus Enform systems do not have the ability to integrate Google Earth overlays. Just like how Acura, Infiniti, BMW, and MB don't have the ability to integrate Google Earth overlay. This feature is only unique to Audi. Its much nicer step up than Audi's standard Navigation Graphics. However - it is a waste of money to spend a couple hundred dollars per 6 months just to dress up the navi graphics.
6)
Agreed almost every luxury marque contains a FWD vehicle.
Exactly - even the BMW X1 and X2 are transverse FWD layout.
The RX is insanely popular overall - Lexus sells over 100K of these every year. I honestly think the Lexus RX is such a great car (my family owned 2 generations of the RX), its 10 times better than the BMW X5s. It doubles the BMW X5 sales numbers every year as well. The BMW X5 is in direct competition with the RX - its just that the RX is better.
Ahh. My bad. I was wrong. I thought it was 2050. Thanks for the info. Then I'll agree - 2025 to meet a 54.5MPG restriction is impossible. While I don't agree with the removal of the restrictions, I think it should be lower than 54.5MPG.
I still maintain though. Hybrids, Turbos and etc... are the future. Its likely V8, V10, V12 are ever going to make a big comeback. Sooner or later the BMW TTV8s will phase out too.
Yes. The KIA Stinger is on a up-trend on sales - averaging about 1K per month. 1K per month is niche sales figures.
But my point is that the GT1 and GT2 Stinger cost 46K-50K OTD. At that price, people will be looking at a Lexus IS, BMW 3 Series, Audi A4, Infiniti Q50 3.0T Silver Sport, C300, and Acura TLX. While the car they choose over the KIA depends on the costumer, the reason the KIA stinger will get looked pass is because of the brand. It will be hard for people to justify spending 46K plus on a KIA. Its the perception of the brand and our society. IE: What sounds better? "I worked my *** off for 5 years and saved up for a KIA" or "I worked my *** off for 5 years and saved up for a Lexus/BMW/Audi/MB/etc..."
This is similar to the Hyundai Genesis Coupe. The Genesis Coupe was suppose to be the "G-Killer". Did it kill the G Coupe/Sedan? Nope.
I think people will rather buy the Infiniti Q50T 3.0T Silver Sport (which can had a discount) over the 50K GT2 if they are looking for Twin Turbo performance.
1)
Lexus engines are old based on whats currently available. For a motor thats been released after everyone else, how does the torque come on after everyone's else 1,650 for Lexus while 1,250 for BMW. Most "dumb customers" as you mentioned need to access that power at lower RPMs in day 2 day driving.
This statement you are moving the subject (goalpost) to fit your narrative when I clearly proved to you and OP that Lexus engines are not in fact "old". OP suggested Lexus engines are "old". The definition of "old" is regarding to age. What you are doing here is linking age to performance. You basically saying Lexus engines are under-powered so the are old. That makes no sense at all. The STI engine is 10 years old - is it under-powered? No. Hell no. Its still a very fast and powerful engine. Age doesn't equal performance nor performance equals age. While higher performance models of Lexus, such as the GS-F and RC-F are slow compared to their competitors, the rest of the line-up's performance is right they should be. The Turbo 4 is faster than the 320i, Q50 2.0T, Acura TLX I4, and Audi A4 FWD 2.0T. While the 2GR-FKS in the Lexus IS350 is faster than the C300, Audi A4 Quattro, and Acura TLX, on-par with the BMW 330i, and slower than the Infiniti Q50 3.0T. So in theory - the Lexus non-performance line of cars are doing just fine in numbers.
The average consumer is dumb. That's a fact. Take me for example - I don't know jack-crap about phones. So I'll be considered one of those shoppers that buy what people say is good or what marketing tell me its good. Just like how average people don't know crap about phones - average people don't know crap about cars. So in fact - these average consumers will likely don't even know they use low-torque for daily driving around town. How do you expect them to when the average consumer still think HP is number that determines acceleration? There is a reason why the dealerships use HP numbers to sell their cars because majority of the people buying cars average folks - not car enthusiast like you and I.
2)
My reference to was not the sheer number of vehicles making them average but the customization of said line. Lexus has a huge portfolio but in that portfolio the options are limited and they`d rather you upgrade classes of vehicles then move horizontally in the same vehicle.
IE: If in 2016 I wanted a mid size saloon with a v8....nothing. In lexus I would need to move vertically to the V8 powered LS. At say BMW you CAN buy a 550i F10.
In regards to the Tesla, you have different levels of the same vehicle 70 80 90d?
Finally in reference to the GSF vs F10 5 series, check the numbers and the 550i, non M5 made more tq then a GSF. So the GSF was slower generation to generation and now even slower with the current g30
Still - the question remains: how is the lack offering vehicle engine options make Lexus "average". Is not like Lexus is offering few options either. It might not be options you don't like, but Lexus has options.
IE: The 2018 Lexus GS offers a Turbo 4, V6, Hybrid V6, and a V8 from the GS-F. That's a total of 4 power-train options. While the Audi A6 only has 3 engine options including the S6 engine. Where's the comment about how Audi lacks engine options?
Yes. Tesla has different levels of the same vehicle. So does the Lexus GS. What's your point here?
Let me start off by saying - the GS-F is slow compared to the M5. Just like how the RC-F is slow compared to the M3/M4. The M Cars are just better. The M Cars are better than the AMG line and the RS line. BMW M Series is the definition of performance saloons. But - that doesn't mean a slower car, like the GS-F, isn't the M5's competition. Lexus F line is a direct competitor to the BMW M line, RS line and AMG line. Is it better? That's debatable. I would say the M line is the best. My point is - no matter what - the GS-F is the M5's competition despite speed/engine numbers.
I'm well full aware of the F10 550i has more torque. It had a TTV8 while the GS-F ran a NA V8 - so obviously it'll have more torque. While we are here throwing numbers out, the Lexus GS-F has more HP.
5)
"Hiding shortcomings"? No.... The OP was specifically talking about Lexus navigation graphics. So we should compare it to Audi's Navigation graphics, right? Google Earth overlay isn't Audi's Navigation graphics - its Google's graphics. If we kept it "on" for the comparison, we would be comparing Lexus' Navi graphics to Google Earth's graphics - not Audi's graphics. This is why you need Google overlay off to be proper - to be properly compared to Audi's actual navigation graphics. Furthermore - Google Earth overlay cost a couple hundred dollars per 6 months. Back to the point - Lexus' navigation graphics is on-par with BMW and better than MB and Audi's navigation graphics.
Simple question, can the latest gen of the lexus navigation system integrate google earth overlays similar to whats available in the other marques?
How is your question relevant to what is being discussed? OP (RNM GS3) stated the the Lexus Navigation graphic sucks. I contested and say it isn't. That means we should compare standard navigation graphics. If we compare the Lexus navigation graphics to the Audi navigation graphics with Google Earth overlay, that would be compared the Lexus navi graphics to Google's graphics - not Audis. The point is: Lexus navi graphics is on-par with BMW and its better than MB and Audi.
However - to answer your question. No. The Lexus Enform systems do not have the ability to integrate Google Earth overlays. Just like how Acura, Infiniti, BMW, and MB don't have the ability to integrate Google Earth overlay. This feature is only unique to Audi. Its much nicer step up than Audi's standard Navigation Graphics. However - it is a waste of money to spend a couple hundred dollars per 6 months just to dress up the navi graphics.
6)
Agreed almost every luxury marque contains a FWD vehicle.
Exactly - even the BMW X1 and X2 are transverse FWD layout.
04-10-18, 07:20 AM
#268
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
omg so much text, bold, underlining, strike out... 
04-10-18, 07:55 AM
#269
Lexus Champion
Yeah, I decided to show the numbers for the A7, because essentially Kia copied that version since it's a hatch vs the A6/S6 which is four door sedan. The A6/S6 sells very well. The GS is on life support at this point.
04-10-18, 09:19 AM
#270
Lexus Test Driver
I wouldnt call customers DUMB. Some are lazy, some are stubborn, some are uninformed, some have stupid levels of loyalty, some are fickle, some are well informed, some are too informed and etc. To generalize it by calling all customers as generally dumb is over generalizing and simplifying. Just because you dont know jack about phones does not make you dumb. It is up to you whether or not you choose to do the research or "homework" as Kramer puts it. You can say you made a dumb choice with bad research like reading BGR.com and ignoring everything others. Or you can read as many points of views as possible about different brands of phones and become well informed. However, if you still go choose a bad phone after proper research, then yes you are dumb.
Lastly - everything you wrote about what the consumer are - is exactly what the average consumer is. We can't base our own car knowledge, as car enthusiasts, and assume every car customers think like we do. The fact is: they don't.