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Yeah, I decided to show the numbers for the A7, because essentially Kia copied that version since it's a hatch vs the A6/S6 which is four door sedan. The A6/S6 sells very well. The GS is on life support at this point.
Good to know about the Kia, didn't have any idea it was a hatchback.
With regards to the GS refresh, they should not have used the turbo 4 engine. Or at least they should have upgraded it for the GS. When I test drove it back to back with a 530i, the lag and lack of performance was really noticeable between the two.
Good to know about the Kia, didn't have any idea it was a hatchback.
With regards to the GS refresh, they should not have used the turbo 4 engine. Or at least they should have upgraded it for the GS. When I test drove it back to back with a 530i, the lag and lack of performance was really noticeable between the two.
I agree - the GS shouldn't have used the Turbo 4. The Turbo 4 is much more suited for the Lexus IS. The entry-level should have been the GS350 with the 2GR-FKS trim.
However - I think you should have test drove the GS350 back to back with the 530i. The GS350, in my mind, is the real competitor to the 530i. Then Lexus should make a GS400 with a TTV6 to compete with the 540i.
I agree - the GS shouldn't have used the Turbo 4. The Turbo 4 is much more suited for the Lexus IS. The entry-level should have been the GS350 with the 2GR-FKS trim.
However - I think you should have test drove the GS350 back to back with the 530i. The GS350, in my mind, is the real competitor to the 530i. Then Lexus should make a GS400 with a TTV6 to compete with the 540i.
Or, GS 500, if it's using the same engine (which it is).
If there's a 400, I suspect it'll be with a new engine, though Lexus have been known to use the same engine in varying output (i.e. the IS/RC 300 AWD).
so going to quote my own post as i don't think anyone replied (you did mmarshall but you just said go back 20 years which isn't happening), and my question is, maybe not stated plainly... what CAN lexus do really, to compete with the german vehicles and others?
What makes you think they currently do not? I took my fathers ES350 today in for service as I will be borrowing for a few weeks, I was thinking about your post for a few days. Hopefully a good discussion could be had.
I looked at some of the Lexus models. The LC and LS have grown on me in different ways. But overall, Lexus has products that span price points from $30Kish to past $100K+++. They have a very strong reputation for quality and reliability. Lexus has by far the best resale value among luxury cars. Lexus has a variety of products that span different tastes. Lexus now has a distinct style that either works or does not work for people. Their dealer network is 275 locations strong and they keep it lower than where it probably could go. Lexus does well on their JD power scores or the CR scores. Lexus IS fully competitive. So I am not sure what the issue is? Lexus could certainly improve on not having so many older engines and a plug in hybrids would do a lot for them (they have plug in tech already in the Prius)
The big issue with the GS is that it is an older design that needs updating.
What makes you think they currently do not? I took my fathers ES350 today in for service as I will be borrowing for a few weeks, I was thinking about your post for a few days. Hopefully a good discussion could be had.
I looked at some of the Lexus models. The LC and LS have grown on me in different ways. But overall, Lexus has products that span price points from $30Kish to past $100K+++. They have a very strong reputation for quality and reliability. Lexus has by far the best resale value among luxury cars. Lexus has a variety of products that span different tastes. Lexus now has a distinct style that either works or does not work for people. Their dealer network is 275 locations strong and they keep it lower than where it probably could go. Lexus does well on their JD power scores or the CR scores. Lexus IS fully competitive. So I am not sure what the issue is?
We've probably alluded to this before, but some don't consider Lexus to be on the same plane as the Germans, thinking they are more on an Acura level in terms of pricing and quality. This is mainly just misinformation/misconception. About a year after I got the IS, even my wife, who was there with me on delivery day, asked me if I was going to "upgrade" to a BMW or Benz for my next vehicle. I politely let her know that the 330i and C-class are roughly the same price as what I got, with fewer features. Also, that Lexus really is just as good as the Germans, at least on the whole - and better when it comes to build quality and reliability. Even though I cross-shopped the vehicles she still considered Lexus to be just an alternative to the more-established Germans, not a true replacement. Of course now, she fully gets it.
What makes you think they currently do not? I took my fathers ES350 today in for service as I will be borrowing for a few weeks, I was thinking about your post for a few days. Hopefully a good discussion could be had.
I looked at some of the Lexus models. The LC and LS have grown on me in different ways. But overall, Lexus has products that span price points from $30Kish to past $100K+++. They have a very strong reputation for quality and reliability. Lexus has by far the best resale value among luxury cars. Lexus has a variety of products that span different tastes. Lexus now has a distinct style that either works or does not work for people. Their dealer network is 275 locations strong and they keep it lower than where it probably could go. Lexus does well on their JD power scores or the CR scores. Lexus IS fully competitive. So I am not sure what the issue is? Lexus could certainly improve on not having so many older engines and a plug in hybrids would do a lot for them (they have plug in tech already in the Prius)
The big issue with the GS is that it is an older design that needs updating.
You snipped most of Bitkahuna's original post. He was speaking specifically about the 5 series and the E class in that post. You are talking about the Lexus lineup and the Lexus brand/resale value. That won't matter much if people are not buying the GS in Europe (this thread's main focus) and they're not buying it in North America (compared to the competition). How is that competitive?
You also refer to a pricing range that starts at fwd Toyota platform shared products. We aren't talking about ES and RX sales here. The GS lives in a different place where it has to compete with the Germans.
The big issue with the GS is that it is an older design that needs updating.
Yes, that is what needed to be done by now but could still be done over the next two years to keep the GS alive and well. The only alternative for people seeking a sporty sedan with Lexus is now the LS and it's in the high five figure, and six figure range. The IS is the only other car that can compete, but for some people it's too small and cramped.
We've probably alluded to this before, but some don't consider Lexus to be on the same plane as the Germans, thinking they are more on an Acura level in terms of pricing and quality. This is mainly just misinformation/misconception. About a year after I got the IS, even my wife, who was there with me on delivery day, asked me if I was going to "upgrade" to a BMW or Benz for my next vehicle. I politely let her know that the 330i and C-class are roughly the same price as what I got, with fewer features. Also, that Lexus really is just as good as the Germans, at least on the whole - and better when it comes to build quality and reliability. Even though I cross-shopped the vehicles she still considered Lexus to be just an alternative to the more-established Germans, not a true replacement. Of course now, she fully gets it.
But that's just a theory.
I get what you are saying that some don’t see Lexus on the same plane. I think there will always be the case. But then there are some that probably see the diminished in MB brand wirh commercial vans and the smart cars now on the lots.
so going to quote my own post as i don't think anyone replied (you did mmarshall but you just said go back 20 years which isn't happening), and my question is, maybe not stated plainly... what CAN lexus do really, to compete with the german vehicles and others?
and i don't need to read 'stick a 500hp twin turbo v8 in it and price it at 30k' because that's not possible with a level of luxury it needs.
What can Lexus really do to compete with the Germans? Like many others have alluded to.... Lexus already competes extremely well versus the Germans. There is a really big, big misconception that Lexus isn't a good car company compared to the Germans because of the brand. The perception of brand is huge - this leads many average consumers to ignore Lexus or thinks German cars are more of an "upgrade" to Lexus when its really not. There are actually people that think a BMW with less options is better than a Lexus with more options.
Lexus NX sales > BMW X3 Sales
Lexus RX sales > BMW X5 Sales
Lexus GX sales > BMW X6 Sales
Lexus is destroying the Germans in the SUV game - which is by-far the more important game because the USA is on a SUV craze. One can assume the Lexus UX will do 10 folds better than the BMW X1/X2.
My point is: Lexus is competing well and its on the same boat as the Germans in terms of luxury. However - due to marketing and the way the average consumer think - many will be falsely lead to believe Lexus isn't on the same boat as the Germans and it isn't doing well. This in turn can harm sales figures for Lexus. This is one of the reasons why I think Lexus GS sales aren't as good as BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class.
Originally Posted by arentz07
Or, GS 500, if it's using the same engine (which it is).
If there's a 400, I suspect it'll be with a new engine, though Lexus have been known to use the same engine in varying output (i.e. the IS/RC 300 AWD).
I'm speculating the GS400 can have a detuned version of the Lexus LS TTV6 - if indeed they go the GS400 route.
Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
What makes you think they currently do not? I took my fathers ES350 today in for service as I will be borrowing for a few weeks, I was thinking about your post for a few days. Hopefully a good discussion could be had.
I looked at some of the Lexus models. The LC and LS have grown on me in different ways. But overall, Lexus has products that span price points from $30Kish to past $100K+++. They have a very strong reputation for quality and reliability. Lexus has by far the best resale value among luxury cars. Lexus has a variety of products that span different tastes. Lexus now has a distinct style that either works or does not work for people. Their dealer network is 275 locations strong and they keep it lower than where it probably could go. Lexus does well on their JD power scores or the CR scores. Lexus IS fully competitive. So I am not sure what the issue is? Lexus could certainly improve on not having so many older engines and a plug in hybrids would do a lot for them (they have plug in tech already in the Prius)
The big issue with the GS is that it is an older design that needs updating.
What year ES350? Those things are so comfy. I think you might have trouble giving it back to your dad because its so comfy. They are so easy to live with.
Agreed. Lexus is fully competitive. Lexus' quality, refinement, reliability, and resale value are the best in the car-game. Its insane how a Lexus IS, after being 4 years old, can still be worth close to 30K OTD in the Bay Area. Other cars that compete with the Lexus IS would have tanked well into the 20s already by the 4 year mark. Agreed also - Lexus does have a variety of products that span towards different people's taste. The people that have complained about Lexus' variety of products are the ones asking for V8s or more power. Like I said earlier - Lexus does offer a good selection of cars but to some people they don't think its enough because they don't offer the selection they like.
I think Lexus' new design is well received overall and they finally have their unique look coming in. It'll definitely be Lexus' signature look for awhile. The thing is: less people complain about the MB, BMW or Audi designs because they conservatively change them. Its a conservative refresh into a conservative redesign. People seems to feel less threaten because newer design feels familiar to them. Lexus is probably doing this too with the new cars going forward since they have found their look. My dad initially complained about how ugly the new Lexus grill and design was when it first debuted. However - over time - he started to like it. He told me he initially felt the change from their older designs were too dramatic.
I personally don't think the age or the design is the issue. The redesign alone will not help the Lexus GS compete against the 5 Series or E-Class. The 5 Series and E-Class have been marketed to be definition of executive rear-drive sedans. What Lexus needs to do is defined the place of the next-gen Lexus GS more than anything. They have to market and product place better. The problem is the average consumers think the Lexus GS is a bigger Lexus IS and its not as good as the 5 Series or E-Class - when in fact the Lexus GS is just as good (not right now because the BMW/MB already updated).
^^^^Evidence of this: the 2013 Lexus GS compared to the 2013 F10 BMW 5 Series.
At the time - the Lexus GS was a brand new car coming out with more features standard, had more tech, better value and it was cheaper - but yet the 2 year older more expensive BMW 5 Series sold more copies. At the time of 2013 - the Lexus GS was a better car than the 5 Series but it didn't sell well compared to it. In 2013 - Lexus GS sold 19.7K units while the 5 Series sold 56.8K units.
I think Lexus finally understands this because they product placed the Lexus LS into the Blank Panther movie (which is the 3rd highly grossed movie of all time now.)
Originally Posted by arentz07
We've probably alluded to this before, but some don't consider Lexus to be on the same plane as the Germans, thinking they are more on an Acura level in terms of pricing and quality. This is mainly just misinformation/misconception. About a year after I got the IS, even my wife, who was there with me on delivery day, asked me if I was going to "upgrade" to a BMW or Benz for my next vehicle. I politely let her know that the 330i and C-class are roughly the same price as what I got, with fewer features. Also, that Lexus really is just as good as the Germans, at least on the whole - and better when it comes to build quality and reliability. Even though I cross-shopped the vehicles she still considered Lexus to be just an alternative to the more-established Germans, not a true replacement. Of course now, she fully gets it.
But that's just a theory.
Agreed. It is a huge misinformation/misconception that the average consumers (people) that think Lexus isn't on the same planes as the German.
Your wife isn't the only saying this too. I have friends and cousins in this boat as well. They think the Germans are a step up from a Lexus - the average consumer thinks this way. This is caused by the perception the Germans are a better brand. It has a lot to do with the marketing the Germans put out to make their cars look better than they really are. (I'm not saying they don't make good cars - they do.) But they market their cars in such a way where average consumers think a lesser equipped BMW is better than a fully equipped Lexus IS because it carries the BMW/MB logo. If you look at the sales numbers of the 2014 Lexus IS and 2014 BMW 3 Series, this theory holds true. The 2014 Lexus IS was a brand new car, better features, more feature as standard, cheaper, more reliable, and etc... overall it was just better than the 3 Series at the time. However - the BMW 3 Series still sold double the amount of the Lexus IS. This is probably why I see more no option or minimally optioned BMW 3 Series than fully loaded ones in my area.
Originally Posted by MattyG
You snipped most of Bitkahuna's original post. He was speaking specifically about the 5 series and the E class in that post. You are talking about the Lexus lineup and the Lexus brand/resale value. That won't matter much if people are not buying the GS in Europe (this thread's main focus) and they're not buying it in North America (compared to the competition). How is that competitive?
You also refer to a pricing range that starts at fwd Toyota platform shared products. We aren't talking about ES and RX sales here. The GS lives in a different place where it has to compete with the Germans.
While the Lexus GS isn't competitive against the Germans, the brand is. That's the point being made here.
You are making it sound like sharing platform with Toyota is a bad thing? Lexus is Toyota. This is no different from how VW and Audi shares platforms. If BMW has a non-luxury company that owns it, it'll likely share platforms as well.
What can Lexus really do to compete with the Germans? Like many others have alluded to.... Lexus already competes extremely well versus the Germans. There is a really big, big misconception that Lexus isn't a good car company compared to the Germans because of the brand. The perception of brand is huge - this leads many average consumers to ignore Lexus or thinks German cars are more of an "upgrade" to Lexus when its really not. There are actually people that think a BMW with less options is better than a Lexus with more options.
Lexus NX sales > BMW X3 Sales
Lexus RX sales > BMW X5 Sales
Lexus GX sales > BMW X6 Sales
Lexus is destroying the Germans in the SUV game - which is by-far the more important game because the USA is on a SUV craze. One can assume the Lexus UX will do 10 folds better than the BMW X1/X2.
My point is: Lexus is competing well and its on the same boat as the Germans in terms of luxury. However - due to marketing and the way the average consumer think - many will be falsely lead to believe Lexus isn't on the same boat as the Germans and it isn't doing well. This in turn can harm sales figures for Lexus. This is one of the reasons why I think Lexus GS sales aren't as good as BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class.
I'm speculating the GS400 can have a detuned version of the Lexus LS TTV6 - if indeed they go the GS400 route.
What year ES350? Those things are so comfy. I think you might have trouble giving it back to your dad because its so comfy. They are so easy to live with.
Agreed. Lexus is fully competitive. Lexus' quality, refinement, reliability, and resale value are the best in the car-game. Its insane how a Lexus IS, after being 4 years old, can still be worth close to 30K OTD in the Bay Area. Other cars that compete with the Lexus IS would have tanked well into the 20s already by the 4 year mark. Agreed also - Lexus does have a variety of products that span towards different people's taste. The people that have complained about Lexus' variety of products are the ones asking for V8s or more power. Like I said earlier - Lexus does offer a good selection of cars but to some people they don't think its enough because they don't offer the selection they like.
I think Lexus' new design is well received overall and they finally have their unique look coming in. It'll definitely be Lexus' signature look for awhile. The thing is: less people complain about the MB, BMW or Audi designs because they conservatively change them. Its a conservative refresh into a conservative redesign. People seems to feel less threaten because newer design feels familiar to them. Lexus is probably doing this too with the new cars going forward since they have found their look. My dad initially complained about how ugly the new Lexus grill and design was when it first debuted. However - over time - he started to like it. He told me he initially felt the change from their older designs were too dramatic.
I personally don't think the age or the design is the issue. The redesign alone will not help the Lexus GS compete against the 5 Series or E-Class. The 5 Series and E-Class have been marketed to be definition of executive rear-drive sedans. What Lexus needs to do is defined the place of the next-gen Lexus GS more than anything. They have to market and product place better. The problem is the average consumers think the Lexus GS is a bigger Lexus IS and its not as good as the 5 Series or E-Class - when in fact the Lexus GS is just as good (not right now because the BMW/MB already updated).
^^^^Evidence of this: the 2013 Lexus GS compared to the 2013 F10 BMW 5 Series.
At the time - the Lexus GS was a brand new car coming out with more features standard, had more tech, better value and it was cheaper - but yet the 2 year older more expensive BMW 5 Series sold more copies. At the time of 2013 - the Lexus GS was a better car than the 5 Series but it didn't sell well compared to it. In 2013 - Lexus GS sold 19.7K units while the 5 Series sold 56.8K units.
I think Lexus finally understands this because they product placed the Lexus LS into the Blank Panther movie (which is the 3rd highly grossed movie of all time now.)
Agreed. It is a huge misinformation/misconception that the average consumers (people) that think Lexus isn't on the same planes as the German.
Your wife isn't the only saying this too. I have friends and cousins in this boat as well. They think the Germans are a step up from a Lexus - the average consumer thinks this way. This is caused by the perception the Germans are a better brand. It has a lot to do with the marketing the Germans put out to make their cars look better than they really are. (I'm not saying they don't make good cars - they do.) But they market their cars in such a way where average consumers think a lesser equipped BMW is better than a fully equipped Lexus IS because it carries the BMW/MB logo. If you look at the sales numbers of the 2014 Lexus IS and 2014 BMW 3 Series, this theory holds true. The 2014 Lexus IS was a brand new car, better features, more feature as standard, cheaper, more reliable, and etc... overall it was just better than the 3 Series at the time. However - the BMW 3 Series still sold double the amount of the Lexus IS. This is probably why I see more no option or minimally optioned BMW 3 Series than fully loaded ones in my area.
While the Lexus GS isn't competitive against the Germans, the brand is. That's the point being made here.
You are making it sound like sharing platform with Toyota is a bad thing? Lexus is Toyota. This is no different from how VW and Audi shares platforms. If BMW has a non-luxury company that owns it, it'll likely share platforms as well.
Great comments. My father wants to borrow my 4Runner and tow something up north. So we traded for his 2015 ES for a week. My mom won’t allow him to use her 4Runner. Lol.
1) Lexus engines are old based on whats currently available. For a motor thats been released after everyone else, how does the torque come on after everyone's else 1,650 for Lexus while 1,250 for BMW. Most "dumb customers" as you mentioned need to access that power at lower RPMs in day 2 day driving.
This statement you are moving the subject (goalpost) to fit your narrative when I clearly proved to you and OP that Lexus engines are not in fact "old". OP suggested Lexus engines are "old". The definition of "old" is regarding to age. What you are doing here is linking age to performance. You basically saying Lexus engines are under-powered so the are old. That makes no sense at all. The STI engine is 10 years old - is it under-powered? No. Hell no. Its still a very fast and powerful engine. Age doesn't equal performance nor performance equals age. While higher performance models of Lexus, such as the GS-F and RC-F are slow compared to their competitors, the rest of the line-up's performance is right they should be. The Turbo 4 is faster than the 320i, Q50 2.0T, Acura TLX I4, and Audi A4 FWD 2.0T. While the 2GR-FKS in the Lexus IS350 is faster than the C300, Audi A4 Quattro, and Acura TLX, on-par with the BMW 330i, and slower than the Infiniti Q50 3.0T. So in theory - the Lexus non-performance line of cars are doing just fine in numbers.
The average consumer is dumb. That's a fact. Take me for example - I don't know jack-crap about phones. So I'll be considered one of those shoppers that buy what people say is good or what marketing tell me its good. Just like how average people don't know crap about phones - average people don't know crap about cars. So in fact - these average consumers will likely don't even know they use low-torque for daily driving around town. How do you expect them to when the average consumer still think HP is number that determines acceleration? There is a reason why the dealerships use HP numbers to sell their cars because majority of the people buying cars average folks - not car enthusiast like you and I.
2) My reference to was not the sheer number of vehicles making them average but the customization of said line. Lexus has a huge portfolio but in that portfolio the options are limited and they`d rather you upgrade classes of vehicles then move horizontally in the same vehicle.
IE: If in 2016 I wanted a mid size saloon with a v8....nothing. In lexus I would need to move vertically to the V8 powered LS. At say BMW you CAN buy a 550i F10.
In regards to the Tesla, you have different levels of the same vehicle 70 80 90d?
Finally in reference to the GSF vs F10 5 series, check the numbers and the 550i, non M5 made more tq then a GSF. So the GSF was slower generation to generation and now even slower with the current g30
Still - the question remains: how is the lack offering vehicle engine options make Lexus "average". Is not like Lexus is offering few options either. It might not be options you don't like, but Lexus has options.
IE: The 2018 Lexus GS offers a Turbo 4, V6, Hybrid V6, and a V8 from the GS-F. That's a total of 4 power-train options. While the Audi A6 only has 3 engine options including the S6 engine. Where's the comment about how Audi lacks engine options?
Yes. Tesla has different levels of the same vehicle. So does the Lexus GS. What's your point here?
Let me start off by saying - the GS-F is slow compared to the M5. Just like how the RC-F is slow compared to the M3/M4. The M Cars are just better. The M Cars are better than the AMG line and the RS line. BMW M Series is the definition of performance saloons. But - that doesn't mean a slower car, like the GS-F, isn't the M5's competition. Lexus F line is a direct competitor to the BMW M line, RS line and AMG line. Is it better? That's debatable. I would say the M line is the best. My point is - no matter what - the GS-F is the M5's competition despite speed/engine numbers.
I'm well full aware of the F10 550i has more torque. It had a TTV8 while the GS-F ran a NA V8 - so obviously it'll have more torque. While we are here throwing numbers out, the Lexus GS-F has more HP.
5) Point of contention would be if you have to takeoff a judgment criteria ("google overlay off") that intern equates to hiding shortcomings, a common marketing tactic.
"Hiding shortcomings"? No.... The OP was specifically talking about Lexus navigation graphics. So we should compare it to Audi's Navigation graphics, right? Google Earth overlay isn't Audi's Navigation graphics - its Google's graphics. If we kept it "on" for the comparison, we would be comparing Lexus' Navi graphics to Google Earth's graphics - not Audi's graphics. This is why you need Google overlay off to be proper - to be properly compared to Audi's actual navigation graphics. Furthermore - Google Earth overlay cost a couple hundred dollars per 6 months. Back to the point - Lexus' navigation graphics is on-par with BMW and better than MB and Audi's navigation graphics. Simple question, can the latest gen of the lexus navigation system integrate google earth overlays similar to whats available in the other marques?
How is your question relevant to what is being discussed? OP (RNM GS3) stated the the Lexus Navigation graphic sucks. I contested and say it isn't. That means we should compare standard navigation graphics. If we compare the Lexus navigation graphics to the Audi navigation graphics with Google Earth overlay, that would be compared the Lexus navi graphics to Google's graphics - not Audis. The point is: Lexus navi graphics is on-par with BMW and its better than MB and Audi.
However - to answer your question. No. The Lexus Enform systems do not have the ability to integrate Google Earth overlays. Just like how Acura, Infiniti, BMW, and MB don't have the ability to integrate Google Earth overlay. This feature is only unique to Audi. Its much nicer step up than Audi's standard Navigation Graphics. However - it is a waste of money to spend a couple hundred dollars per 6 months just to dress up the navi graphics.
6) Agreed almost every luxury marque contains a FWD vehicle.
Exactly - even the BMW X1 and X2 are transverse FWD layout.
1&2) I wholeheartedly disagree that performance and age are not linked at all. I believe that if you are launching a new stack of products to remain competitive, especially with the intent of tackling the fierce leaders of performance as Lexus currently is trying and dont intend on replacing engines anytime soon (Toyota takes a decade or so to shift) you need to launch something that outpaces whats currently on the market. With the 8AR, it is a new motor design, but at the very minimum. With the 19 3 series dropping in a couple of months, expect Lexus to once again be behind the competition.
I think the concern here is when someone calls Lexus average, they immediately feel the whole brand has been devalued and basically a Daewoo of Luxury, they are not. At the same point, we cant call Lexus the leader of the luxury pack, but they do have the most potential to get there. The point here is that Lexus does not offer a wide enough selection for traditional luxury, so-called dumb buyers with. 280/300t, 311, 338 (system power), 389/GSF... And dually so, there isnt a line of buyers waiting to get into one that would push Lexus to starting offering more then what they currently have. The biggest champion here is BMW with 258/530i,310,352,458,480 m550i and before we talk about generational bias, the old f10 had a similar but not 1:1 variety of offerings.
Lexus bring back some of "Something Wicked Comes This Way" years and not the current complacency.
5) So you are agreeing that Lexus's current system does not offer a Google Maps feature that would enhance the navigational graphics offered to a perspective buyer? I guess its not too bad considering Lexus will start offering carplay support in the near future, something Lexus has traditionally has been a staunch opponent to versus other makers.
But this is a Lexus GS thread about its future in Europe and possibly the US. Right now, it's not good but that doesn't mean it couldn't change with the introduction of a midsize halo product.
But this is a Lexus GS thread about its future in Europe and possibly the US. Right now, it's not good but that doesn't mean it couldn't change with the introduction of a midsize halo product.
Carsalesbase numbers yet again. Europe.
USA
With this coming on board, whatever the GS is going to be, it needs to be on point to tackle the sales of the 19 ES
The big issue with the GS is that it is an older design that needs updating.
so that's all you've got as far as what lexus needs to do to make a gs competitive?
Originally Posted by BippuLexus
What can Lexus really do to compete with the Germans? Like many others have alluded to.... Lexus already competes extremely well versus the Germans. There is a really big, big misconception that Lexus isn't a good car company compared to the Germans because of the brand. The perception of brand is huge - this leads many average consumers to ignore Lexus or thinks German cars are more of an "upgrade" to Lexus when its really not. There are actually people that think a BMW with less options is better than a Lexus with more options.
Lexus NX sales > BMW X3 Sales
Lexus RX sales > BMW X5 Sales
Lexus GX sales > BMW X6 Sales
Lexus is destroying the Germans in the SUV game - which is by-far the more important game because the USA is on a SUV craze. One can assume the Lexus UX will do 10 folds better than the BMW X1/X2.
your points, while interesting, are irrelevant because this thread is about the GS and what could lexus possibly do to compete with german rivals?
My point is: Lexus is competing well and its on the same boat as the Germans in terms of luxury. However - due to marketing and the way the average consumer think - many will be falsely lead to believe Lexus isn't on the same boat as the Germans and it isn't doing well. This in turn can harm sales figures for Lexus. This is one of the reasons why I think Lexus GS sales aren't as good as BMW 5 Series or MB E-Class.
ok so what can lexus do? i've already stated over and over that lexus marketing in recent years has been weaksauce and have not changed the way the average consumer thinks.
Agreed. Lexus is fully competitive. Lexus' quality, refinement, reliability, and resale value are the best in the car-game.
you're talking about those 'facts' but that doesn't change the FACT that the gs is selling really poorly.
Its insane how a Lexus IS, after being 4 years old, can still be worth close to 30K OTD in the Bay Area.
since most luxury cars are leased, who cares, except i guess for used/cpo car lots.
The redesign alone will not help the Lexus GS compete against the 5 Series or E-Class. The 5 Series and E-Class have been marketed to be definition of executive rear-drive sedans. What Lexus needs to do is defined the place of the next-gen Lexus GS more than anything. They have to market and product place better.
hear hear on bold.
The problem is the average consumers think the Lexus GS is a bigger Lexus IS and its not as good as the 5 Series or E-Class - when in fact the Lexus GS is just as good (not right now because the BMW/MB already updated).
so it's not just as good right now, which is a problem.
While the Lexus GS isn't competitive against the Germans, the brand is. That's the point being made here.
I just flew 3200 miles yesterday and just got done speeding reading through 90% of was written since I last commented on this thread. All I can really say is WOW. Where do I start?
First I don’t really have a issue with Lexus being called a average luxury marque. Average is not a offensive term in my book. In fact after test driving a A6 3.0T, E350, and the GS350 back to back I found them to be all about the same for my intended purpose of being daily driven. The GS won me over, because of it’s reliable track record, it’s inoffensive styling, and ease of finding a fully equipped version to buy.
The large screen infotainment screen was a big plus for me. I’ve owned and still own many high end brands all at once and for a daily driver I didn’t want to be bothered with having a car in and out of the shop every 9 weeks or so. The GS serves it’s purpose well, it runs and runs without the quirky issues one will almost always run into when they choose to daily drive a German car.
What other luxury brands might I call average? I don’t know, maybe Infiniti, Volvo, Cadillac, Lincoln hell even many Mercedes, Audi and BMW cars I see every day I think of as average.
I dont see any thing wrong with being a average luxury marque. I would say brands such as Porsche, Bentley, Rolls, Aston, and perhaps Maserati of olde are cut from a different cloth. Sub brands like BMW’s M and Mercedes AMG/Maybach are also quite unique and above average in my opinion.
I just don’t get what all the fuss is about regarding a car brand being average, In the middle or just fine. It’s a broad term to use to describe a car company as a whole, maybe I should go back and see what context the original poster used it in.
Im also okay with owning a car that’s just happens to be average luxury car. We are all truly blessed to be having a conversation where we are trying to argue our points across on what’s truly average luxury and what’s not regarding cars that cost between $38-$120k.
1&2) I wholeheartedly disagree that performance and age are not linked at all. I believe that if you are launching a new stack of products to remain competitive, especially with the intent of tackling the fierce leaders of performance as Lexus currently is trying and dont intend on replacing engines anytime soon (Toyota takes a decade or so to shift) you need to launch something that outpaces whats currently on the market. With the 8AR, it is a new motor design, but at the very minimum. With the 19 3 series dropping in a couple of months, expect Lexus to once again be behind the competition.
I think the concern here is when someone calls Lexus average, they immediately feel the whole brand has been devalued and basically a Daewoo of Luxury, they are not. At the same point, we cant call Lexus the leader of the luxury pack, but they do have the most potential to get there. The point here is that Lexus does not offer a wide enough selection for traditional luxury, so-called dumb buyers with. 280/300t, 311, 338 (system power), 389/GSF... And dually so, there isnt a line of buyers waiting to get into one that would push Lexus to starting offering more then what they currently have. The biggest champion here is BMW with 258/530i,310,352,458,480 m550i and before we talk about generational bias, the old f10 had a similar but not 1:1 variety of offerings.
Lexus bring back some of "Something Wicked Comes This Way" years and not the current complacency.
5) So you are agreeing that Lexus's current system does not offer a Google Maps feature that would enhance the navigational graphics offered to a perspective buyer? I guess its not too bad considering Lexus will start offering carplay support in the near future, something Lexus has traditionally has been a staunch opponent to versus other makers.
1&2) Then we will have to agree to disagree. A perfect example why I disagree that age of engine and performance of the engine aren't linked is because of the STI. The STI EJ engine is old as hell, but is it under-powered? No. It is slow? No. Is it low on performance? No. There are many examples of "older" engines that still "perform" well or better than the modern competition.
That just comes down to business structure. Japanese companies tend to be much more conservative and takes at least a decade plus to really move engine while the Germans move it almost every other generation. This goes back to my point - just because the Japanese engine are "older" by age doesn't mean they are under-performing.
No one is calling Lexus the "leader of the pack" for anything. I'm simply stating its ridiculous to call Lexus "average" over a "lack of engine choices". Simply put - Lexus isn't average.
Again - Lexus GS offers Turbo 4, V6, V6 Hybrid and GS-F V8. The 5 Series offers 530i, 540i, 530e, M550i, 540d and the M5 TTV8. While BMW offers 2 more options in terms of engine options, Lexus' 4 engine option offer is not "average". Considering that Audi A6 only offers 3 engine options including S6. I don't see anyone complaining that Audi lacks engine options and calling Audi "average".
5) Its not Google Maps - its Google Earth overlay. <--- This means its just the graphics of Google Earth - IE: 3D buildings and such. "Enhance". It doesn't enhance Audi's navigational graphics - it replaces it for a couple hundred dollars per 6 months. (Which majority of people don't pay for after the free trial ends.) What Google Earth overlay is - it replaces the standard Audi Navigation Graphics with Google Earth's graphics. So again - I state - for a proper comparison of Audi's Navi graphics to Lexus' Navi graphics - you need Google Earth overlay off. We are not comparing Lexus graphics to Google graphics. In this case - Lexus navi graphics are better than Audi graphics.
Secondly - Apple Carplay is a null feature that will not benefit Lexus as at all. Lexus infotainment system, while has its own problems, its much better than Apple Carplay. Also - Carplay doesn't allow Google Maps which means you are stuck with Apple Maps. Apple maps is much worst than Lexus' standard maps.
Lastly - Yes. As I pointed out prior. BMW, MB, Lexus, Acura and Infiniti all don't offer a Google Earth overlay. Its an Audi specific feature. What's the point of the question anyway?
Originally Posted by MattyG
But this is a Lexus GS thread about its future in Europe and possibly the US. Right now, it's not good but that doesn't mean it couldn't change with the introduction of a midsize halo product.
Carsalesbase numbers yet again. Europe.
USA
Yes. This thread is about US/EU Sales. But Bitka's exact quote was. "what CAN lexus do really, to compete with the german vehicles and others?" Maybe his context was in terms of Lexus GS only. But his exact quote is asking what can Lexus do to make Lexus more competitive with other German cars. Like Jill, arentz and I pointed out - Lexus is already competitive. Just the Lexus GS needs some work.
Someone else on this thread or another thread point out a good reason that often gets overlooked or not talked about. Its racial background of costumers and the company themselves.
The Lexus GS will unlikely ever be a hit in Europe - just like how European/American cars will never be a hit in Japan. The 5 Series and E-Class are Europe's flagship cars. They are hometown cars - thus - already putting the Lexus GS at a disadvantage.
Racial demographic of buyers is another point but its not an important factor - but it plays one. Lets be real - there are some racist a-holes out in this world. There are White-Americans that will refuse to buy Japanese because its Asian. And there are Asian-Americans to refuse to buy American or European because they are a "White". Regardless of the reason how they feel - this plays into the sales volume.
Originally Posted by bitkahuna
your points, while interesting, are irrelevant because this thread is about the GS and what could lexus possibly do to compete with german rivals? Irrelevant to the thread, yes, but not irrelevant to your exact quote - "what CAN lexus do really, to compete with the german vehicles and others?" Again - maybe you are stating in a context of GS only. But your quote makes it sound like you asking: What can Lexus do to make Lexus cars more competitive versus German cars.
ok so what can lexus do? i've already stated over and over that lexus marketing in recent years has been weaksauce and have not changed the way the average consumer thinks. Marketing and start off the entry-level model with the 2GR-FKS and top it off with a TTV6.
This is as much as I got because I solely believe the marketing and product placement is the GS's biggest problem. When the Lexus GS came out in 2013, it sold 3 times less than the 2013 5 Series. At the time - the Lexus GS was a new car, newer tech, more feature standard, more tech, cheaper and etc.... but yet the 2013 5 Series sold 3 times more. The reason that's the case is because of perception of brand and marketing.
you're talking about those 'facts' but that doesn't change the FACT that the gs is selling really poorly. Yes. The GS is selling poorly.
since most luxury cars are leased, who cares, except i guess for used/cpo car lots. Yes. Most luxury cars are leased. This is another factor on why BMW probably holds higher sales volume than Lexus. Especially the case for the Lexus IS and 3 Series. The BMW 3 Series has much better lease deals. Maybe my family and I are in the minority - but we never leased a luxury vehicle. We always buy. I think leasing is a bad investment - especially for a car brand like Lexus that tends to hold their resale value so well. Leasing tends to be good for Infiniti or BMWs. I also personally feel leasing is just another way of having the "best and latest" car every few years. Its same thing as the iPhone program where you get a new phone every year. Face it - cars get old every minute/year. Buy a car you love and just drive it till it gets old and replace it.
brand or spec chart comparisons? What do you mean?
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Originally Posted by highrev6
I just flew 3200 miles yesterday and just got done speeding reading through 90% of was written since I last commented on this thread. All I can really say is WOW. Where do I start?
First I don’t really have a issue with Lexus being called a average luxury marque. Average is not a offensive term in my book. In fact after test driving a A6 3.0T, E350, and the GS350 back to back I found them to be all about the same for my intended purpose of being daily driven. The GS won me over, because of it’s reliable track record, it’s inoffensive styling, and ease of finding a fully equipped version to buy.
The large screen infotainment screen was a big plus for me. I’ve owned and still own many high end brands all at once and for a daily driver I didn’t want to be bothered with having a car in and out of the shop every 9 weeks or so. The GS serves it’s purpose well, it runs and runs without the quirky issues one will almost always run into when they choose to daily drive a German car.
What other luxury brands might I call average? I don’t know, maybe Infiniti, Volvo, Cadillac, Lincoln hell even many Mercedes, Audi and BMW cars I see every day I think of as average.
I dont see any thing wrong with being a average luxury marque. I would say brands such as Porsche, Bentley, Rolls, Aston, and perhaps Maserati of olde are cut from a different cloth. Sub brands like BMW’s M and Mercedes AMG/Maybach are also quite unique and above average in my opinion.
I just don’t get what all the fuss is about regarding a car brand being average, In the middle or just fine. It’s a broad term to use to describe a car company as a whole, maybe I should go back and see what context the original poster used it in.
Im also okay with owning a car that’s just happens to be average luxury car. We are all truly blessed to be having a conversation where we are trying to argue our points across on what’s truly average luxury and what’s not regarding cars that cost between $38-$120k.
Damn. Sounds like a long flight.
The way I took it was - the OP/other people was calling Lexus an "average" brand, not an "average luxury brand". Because he said it in a way where the Germans are above Lexus - which is truly not the case. There somethings Lexus does better and there are something Germans does better. The way I see it is - if Lexus is an "average luxury brand", then MB, BMW, Infiniti, Acura, Lincoln, Caddy, and etc... are "average luxury brands" as well. Stuff like BMW M, MB AMG, and Porsche would be considered more "above average". With RR, Aston, Maserati and etc... being just "definition of luxury".
04-10-18 | 11:34 AM
Also, that Lexus really is just as good as the Germans, at least on the whole - and better when it comes to build quality and reliability. Even though I cross-shopped the vehicles she still considered Lexus to be just an alternative to the more-established Germans, not a true replacement. Of course now, she fully gets it. 
because this thread is about the GS and what could lexus possibly do to compete with german rivals?
