highrev6

BippuLexus

I totally agree with this. Its like this in California as well. On a daily basis, the majority of the BMW 3 Series and Mercedes Benz C- Class I see are minimally packaged. Literally - for the same price of the minimally packaged BMW or Mercedes Benz, you can get a Lexus IS loaded. I actually know some people that rather drive a lowest trim Mercedes Benz than get into a fully loaded Infiniti Q50 3.0T Silver Sport. I literally heard them say because its a "Mercedes-Benz". For me, I'll take my 3.0T Silver Sport in black please. The 5 Series and E-Class are guilty of this too. There are people that will rather buy a 5 Series and E-Class with almost nothing on it than get a Lexus GS with everything on it.
^This goes back to the reason why I think part of the reason Lexus GS didn't sell well is - the brand and marketing.

What really convinced me it was a brand/marketing/price issue rather than the 5 Series and E-Class being better cars is this:
The 5 Series on its last model year in 2016 still sold more cars than the 2016 Lexus GS which its still fairly new at the time. Numbers of 2016 sales: GS - 14.8K units and 5 Series - 32.4K units. I just have trouble believing that a 2016 BMW 5 Series (which is 6 years old already) is a better car than the Lexus GS at MY2016, when the Lexus GS matched it feature to feature by that point in time.

Note definition:
Brand/Marketing: IE: Mercedes Benz and BMW market themselves to a point where people their badge is an equalizer to a good car.
Pricing: IE: Wealthy people, who are paying over 50K for a car, will likely care about brand. So they'll have no problem throwing down an extra couple grand for the German car.

peteharvey

I don't see any problems with Lexus selling the ES alongside the GS.

Back in 2006, the all new 5ES and 1 year old 3GS sold a combined 103k+ units; nothing wrong with that.
In 2013, the all new 6ES and 1 year old 4GS sold a combined 92k+ units; nothing wrong with that either.

Even Mercedes has no problems with only selling some 6000 CLS's next to E Class last year.
BMW has no problems selling 3000 odd 6 Series next to 5 Series.
Audi does the same with A6/A7.

In the full size luxury segment, next to the S Class, only some 1600 AMG GT 2 & 4 Door Gran Coupes were sold last year.

There's nothing wrong with selling a low volume sports niche beside a conventional high volume selling derivative.
In the Japanese Domestic Market JDM, the sporty Toyota Aristo/Lexus GS has sold in low volume alongside the high volume selling spacious luxury Toyota Crown for decades.

It's such a good idea that the Germans have recently got on the bandwagon.

A Class vs CLA.
E Class vs CLS.
S Class vs AMG GT.

3/4 Series
5/6 Series
7/8 Series

A4/A5
A6/A7
A8/A9 [to be released]


GLC vs GLC Coupe
GLE vs GLE Coupe

X3 vs X4
X5 vs X6.

Audi Q5 vs Porsche Macan
Audi Q7 vs Porsche Canine

Now, it is actually Lexus who has fallen behind in body style variations.
Axing the GS line would only make things worse for Lexus.
.

highrev6

BippuLexus

The problem is: the Lexus ES and Lexus GS are pretty much the same car. They are both mid-size sedans. If you package them both with similar features, the Lexus ES is cheaper with more space and the same size. This is how sales get taken.

The CLS isn't the same as the E-Class. The CLS is marketed as a 4-door coupe, which is basically a sedan with coupe like design/roof lines. The CLS is also slotted a tier higher than the E-Class so it wouldn't consume E-Class sales.
The 6 Series is not the same as the 5 Series. The 6 Series at its original form its a coupe. Then BMW decided to be make a 4-door version of a 2-door version car, which became the 6 Series Grand Coupe. Like the CLA - the 6 Series Gran Coupe is a 4-door Coupe.
The 5 Series and E-Class are executive sedans and the 6 Series and CLS are 4-door coupes. They are not the same - they are in different markets. The problem is: the Lexus ES and Lexus GS floats in the same market.
Note: The 5 Series and E-class compete against each other. And the 6 Series and CLS compete against each other.

Again - the cars you listed at the bottom are competing in different segments. While the Lexus ES and Lexus GS competes in the same segment. The point people are trying to make is Lexus has two cars within the same segment causing a drain in sales to one of the models.

highrev6

BippuLexus

Hahah. I actually don't live in Glendale, CA. I live in the Bay Area, CA. Just as bad up here as down south. My family has property in SoCal so we go down once in awhile. But you are right though - SoCal is loaded with stripper German cars as well.

Definitely - there's no denying that Mercedes Benz and BMW reliability is just poor. Like Jeremy Clarkson once said - "The Germans make good cars - for a short period of time." Basically good till it starts breaking.

Good addition. Its definitely true. The AMG GT 4-door is not the same as the S-Class. The AMG GT 4-door is literally a 4-door version of the regular AMG GT Coupe. Think of Mercedes Benz just making a 4-door exotic sports car.

It would be interesting if Lexus made the ES sportier and provide it with an AWD or make it a RWD car (which probably won't happen because its based on a Camry). Then the GS can become a 4-door coupe.

peteharvey

From 2005-2012 inclusive, the 3GS was a low slung swoopy four door coupe with a smaller interior and a tiny fastback-like trunk opening & size.
Back then, it set a sales record for the GS line debuting with 33,457 units.

The current 4GS - taller, boxier, more conservatively styled and roomier - debut with over 10,000 fewer units - a fall of some 32%; at a time when the E Class lifted its record sales from 59,000+ units to 69,000+ units.
This shows that while the mainstream market certainly does care about interior space, not everyone cares, and some go for style over space.

highrev6

BippuLexus

I don't think the Lexus 3GS was ever considered a 4-door coupe. It was simply just a luxury rear drive executive car. That's why the Lexus GS and the Lexus LS are the definition of the VIP scene.

I do agree - there are going to be people that choose style over comfort or space; that's why coupes exist. However, I don't think "style" was the main reason sales tanked on the Lexus GS. I personally think the 2012 Lexus GS F-Sport looked better than the 2012 Mercedes Benz E-Class.

While style might have played a factor in some consumers eyes, I think the main factors are still - brand, marketing and the Lexus ES. I'm not saying Lexus sucks at a brand. I'm saying to the average consumer that doesn't care for cars or don't know much about it will think Lexus is beneath Mercedes and BMW. Chances are they aren't buying cars as a sport or hobby; maybe a small percentage of them are but most aren't. Most wealthy average consumer want a "nice" executive car. So these wealthier buyers will probably think Mercedes Benz and BMW are a better brand therefore have enough money to spend for a better brand in their eyes.

A good example of this is the Nissan GT-R versus the Ferrari. There was so much people back in 2008 that thought a Ferrari was faster than a GT-R because Ferrari - and what Nissan could be faster. Chances are - majority of the people who bought Ferraris didn't even know what a GT-R is back then. Of course people know what is now because it gain popularity over the course of a few years.

peteharvey

The basic principles of the 3GS and Mercedes CLS are similar; both are low slung, swoopy, with raked windscreens, and a very short trunk deck with short trunk opening.
Only the "degree/extreme" differs, with the CLS being "more" swoopy resulting in very impractical headroom, and only 4 seat belts.

Neither is the all new 5LS considered a four door coupe either.
Why?
Lexus is the wealthiest auto manufacturer in the world with some $171 billion dollars in equity - assets less liabilities.
Thus Lexus plays it safe for sales volume, so they don't bother to make the 3GS or the 5LS too sporty like the Benz CLS nor the AMG GT respectively.

Look at the 5LS.
It is said to be Panamera-like.
People find that new 5LS uses a longer wheelbase than old LS460L, but less legroom than the old LS460 short wheelbase!
Why?
Because of sporty dynamic front mid-engine placement, bringing the engine's mass closer to the Center of Yaw to maximize agility for quicker changes in direction, but at the expense of cabin length.









Like the old 3GS, the 5GS does not take front midship engine location to the same sporty degree/extreme of the Mercedes AMG GT.
Lexus wants some decent sales volume out of the 5LS.
Lexus doesn't want to accept the AMG GT's 2 & 4 Door 1,600+ units that Benz sold last year in the USA.





If a 5GS was released in 2019, I would suspect that it would be as practical as the old 3GS.
I don't think that the headroom will be quite as restricted as the Mercedes CLS midsize 4 door Gran Coupe; not unless TMC wants to accept CLS's sales of 6,000+ units in the USA last year.


Mainstream + Sports Niche Duo
With Benz & Beamer, the CLS/6 Series is more upmarket than the bread and butter E Class/5 Series.
With Lexus, the GS is more upmarket than the bread and butter front drive based ES.
With combined 3GS/5ES sales of 103k+ units in 2006, and combined 4GS/6ES sales of 94k+ units in 2013, the ES/GS combo are doing fine.

Ditto the CLS/6 Series.
When we look at CLS's 6000+ & 6 Series' 3000+ units last year, we can be forgiven for wanting to axe the CLS & 6 Series too.
However, when CLS is combined with E Class & 6 Series combined with 5 Series, the two duos are doing fine.

Ditto the full size luxury S Class & AMG GT - the latter which only sold 1600 units last year in the USA!


Cheap FWD-based Luxury
The fact that NX/RX are using cheap FWD-based platforms with cheap single lower link front MacPherson strut suspension.
I too don't like the way ES/NX/RX are cheap FWD-based, but it's something that Toyota Motor Corp strangely persists with, probably because they get away with sales, and in particular net profits, and equity - from using low cost underpinnings.


Equity & Success
Hence Toyota Motor Corp has the highest equity in the automotive world with $171 billion dollars.
Equity is assets less liabilities like loans etc.
It is pointless to talk about annual profits, eg a person can make a $1.5 million dollar loss this year, but that loss is almost pointless if he already owns $30 million dollars in property - it is equity that counts, and TMC has the most equity in the automotive world.
Daimler AG only has about $80 billion dollars in equity.
BMW AG less again.
When we see news articles, we often see reports on annual profits, rather than total equity; it is the total equity that really counts...
.

MattyG

If this rumor about stopping sales of the GS proves true, then you have to ask why Lexus doesn't stop selling the RC as well. It's sales numbers are invisible there. And why didn't Lexus pull the flagship 4LS on the Continent? It sold even worse than the GS. The basis of the rumor is supposedly that Lexus has stopped taking orders for the GS in Europe. So far they still show the GS on their European website.

Lexus has struggled against its European competition over the years. The IS has had pretty good success because it's an impressive product, but BMW's 3 series outsells it easily. Even the mighty RX is not a huge sales success because people opt for smaller crossovers like the NX. And is the ES even sold in Europe?

highrev6

Mr. Burns

It's a combination of poor product positioning, and undesirable product - less than brand name. Lexus' brand name is very strong, or at least it used to be in the pre-spindle "relentless pursuit of perfection" days where it was synonymous with luxury and money in American culture.

Problem 1 with the 4GS, is that it looks like this:



This doesn't look like a luxury car. It doesn't look like a sporty car. It looks like an ugly undesirable car.

Problem 2 with the 4GS is the Lexus ES. The 5er and E-class don't have to deal with a similar sized car at a $10k discount eating sales. Have Mercedes come up with an ES competitor for $10k less than the E-class and watch E-class sales plummet in favor of the new model.

If Lexus made a GS that was good looking, powerful, well made, and well priced next to its rivals - then killed the ES - I have no doubts that it would sell quite well. Too bad management is too stupid to realize this.

Lexus management has slowly been killing the brand over the last 10 years. Their only focus seems to be on what sells today. They uglified the lineup with the spindle grill, killed the "relentless pursuit of perfection" line (one of the best in the industry) in favor of the generic "experience amazing", shifted focus from mainstream luxury to niche sport, and ignored product in desirable segments in favor of low and mid tier CUVs.

Och

iTrader: (3)

They would also have to deal with absolutely backwards, horrible Lexus controller. These day the infotainment is perhaps even more important to the buyers than any other feature, and BMW absolutely nailed it with i-Drive. Lexus system in comparison is like Blackberry vs iPhone.