Future of the Lexus GS around the world
03-30-18 | 09:22 PM
#106
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,591
Likes: 88
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
There is another factor that plagues all Toyota (and Lexus) models and that is the corporate culture of Toyota. It is a large, profitable company that does spend a lot on R&D and has a history of technological innovation, yet it is a very Japanese company, meaning that it is very conservative, much more so than other Japanese automakers, in my opinion. What this means is that its new products are innovative, with modern technology but not perceived to be changed at all over its lifetime.
Toyota is not perceived to be an automaker that keeps updating its technology (or its models) continually, like other automakers are perceived to do. The result is that late into a particular model's lifecycle, it is starting to seem stale in comparison with its competitors.
Toyota should learn to be less conservative, make more little changes in its models (like updating its infotainment systems), and blow its own horn more, so that customers don't think that a 3- or 4-year old model is 10-years out of date compared to its competitors.
Toyota is not perceived to be an automaker that keeps updating its technology (or its models) continually, like other automakers are perceived to do. The result is that late into a particular model's lifecycle, it is starting to seem stale in comparison with its competitors.
Toyota should learn to be less conservative, make more little changes in its models (like updating its infotainment systems), and blow its own horn more, so that customers don't think that a 3- or 4-year old model is 10-years out of date compared to its competitors.
03-30-18 | 09:41 PM
#107
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,371
Likes: 488
From: Ca
Be careful, aside from the badge, the styling - although subjective & arguable - styling is one of the biggest reason why consumers choose a particular motor vehicle.
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/buy...icle-1.2552707
http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...hicle-purchase
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...tain-cars.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/buy...icle-1.2552707
http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...hicle-purchase
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...tain-cars.html
03-30-18 | 09:43 PM
#108
Lead Lap
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 608
Likes: 87
From: Ohio
I agree with highrev6 that your post was well-done, but have a question: You mention the large size of Toyota/Lexus, but also how conservative it is. Isn't that how Toyota got to be so big in the first place.....by being conservative? Many decades ago, seems like that's also how GM took over such a large percentage of the American market, until they got arrogant and their quality tanked in the 70s, and especially the 1980s.
03-30-18 | 09:52 PM
#109
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 9,755
Likes: 171
From: California
Be careful, aside from the badge, the styling - although subjective & arguable - styling is one of the biggest reason why consumers choose a particular motor vehicle.
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/buy...icle-1.2552707
http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...hicle-purchase
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...tain-cars.html
http://www.nydailynews.com/autos/buy...icle-1.2552707
http://www.jdpower.com/cars/articles...hicle-purchase
http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2...tain-cars.html
03-30-18 | 11:02 PM
#110
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 11
From: California
If this rumor about stopping sales of the GS proves true, then you have to ask why Lexus doesn't stop selling the RC as well. It's sales numbers are invisible there. And why didn't Lexus pull the flagship 4LS on the Continent? It sold even worse than the GS. The basis of the rumor is supposedly that Lexus has stopped taking orders for the GS in Europe. So far they still show the GS on their European website.
Lexus has struggled against its European competition over the years. The IS has had pretty good success because it's an impressive product, but BMW's 3 series outsells it easily. Even the mighty RX is not a huge sales success because people opt for smaller crossovers like the NX. And is the ES even sold in Europe?
Lexus has struggled against its European competition over the years. The IS has had pretty good success because it's an impressive product, but BMW's 3 series outsells it easily. Even the mighty RX is not a huge sales success because people opt for smaller crossovers like the NX. And is the ES even sold in Europe?
It's a combination of poor product positioning, and undesirable product - less than brand name. Lexus' brand name is very strong, or at least it used to be in the pre-spindle "relentless pursuit of perfection" days where it was synonymous with luxury and money in American culture.
Problem 1 with the 4GS, is that it looks like this:
This doesn't look like a luxury car. It doesn't look like a sporty car. It looks like an ugly undesirable car.
Problem 2 with the 4GS is the Lexus ES. The 5er and E-class don't have to deal with a similar sized car at a $10k discount eating sales. Have Mercedes come up with an ES competitor for $10k less than the E-class and watch E-class sales plummet in favor of the new model.
If Lexus made a GS that was good looking, powerful, well made, and well priced next to its rivals - then killed the ES - I have no doubts that it would sell quite well. Too bad management is too stupid to realize this.
Lexus management has slowly been killing the brand over the last 10 years. Their only focus seems to be on what sells today. They uglified the lineup with the spindle grill, killed the "relentless pursuit of perfection" line (one of the best in the industry) in favor of the generic "experience amazing", shifted focus from mainstream luxury to niche sport, and ignored product in desirable segments in favor of low and mid tier CUVs.
Problem 1 with the 4GS, is that it looks like this:
This doesn't look like a luxury car. It doesn't look like a sporty car. It looks like an ugly undesirable car.
Problem 2 with the 4GS is the Lexus ES. The 5er and E-class don't have to deal with a similar sized car at a $10k discount eating sales. Have Mercedes come up with an ES competitor for $10k less than the E-class and watch E-class sales plummet in favor of the new model.
If Lexus made a GS that was good looking, powerful, well made, and well priced next to its rivals - then killed the ES - I have no doubts that it would sell quite well. Too bad management is too stupid to realize this.
Lexus management has slowly been killing the brand over the last 10 years. Their only focus seems to be on what sells today. They uglified the lineup with the spindle grill, killed the "relentless pursuit of perfection" line (one of the best in the industry) in favor of the generic "experience amazing", shifted focus from mainstream luxury to niche sport, and ignored product in desirable segments in favor of low and mid tier CUVs.
However - I don't believe styling has a big correlation to sales numbers and if it does its minimal at best. Here's an example: the 4th generation TL was so ugly, so ugly with that beak and the portions were just wrong. But, the 4th generation TL throughout its life-cycle manage to sell on average of 35K units. I mean - the 2012 Lexus GS (when it was brand new) sold 22K units and the 2012 Acura TL (which is 3 years old and ugly) sold 33K units. And we can probably all agree the 4th generation TL was an ugly boat. This is why I don't think styling had anything to do with the lack of Lexus GS sales. There were uglier cars that sold more units than the Lexus GS.
It has to do more with brand, marketing and price.
They would also have to deal with absolutely backwards, horrible Lexus controller. These day the infotainment is perhaps even more important to the buyers than any other feature, and BMW absolutely nailed it with i-Drive. Lexus system in comparison is like Blackberry vs iPhone.
I remember a time when people talked hella **** on the iDrive because it sucked. But BMW still sold like hotcakes. If someone really likes the car or the brand, they'll force themselves to like the car. The DCT on the E46 M3 was trash but people still got the E46 with the DCT.
Agreed. I think the E60 is one ugly car as well but yet it sold insanely well.
The 3rd generation Lexus GS looked miles better than the BMW E60 5 Series but the E60 5 Series on average sold 10-30K more cars per year. This is why I think styling plays almost no effect on the sale - if anything, its minimal.
In Europe, the mid-size GS is up against the BMW 5-Series and the Mercedes-Benz E-Class, both of which are not only hometown favourites, but models that have been around forever. That is 2 strikes against it.
In North America, the reason that the GS is not selling is probably a lot more complicated, and may all stem from the fact that it is competing against its sister model, the similarly-sized, yet less expensive ES.
Typical North American buyers are probably less concerned about driving dynamics and more concerned about getting the luxury badge for a good price. The ES definitely gives these buyers that.
For more discerning buyers, I agree with BippuLexus' price-brand correlation theory. True luxury-brand buyers are not shopping for "value" and getting the most car with the most features at the lowest price (especially when shopping established luxury brands, which Lexus is at this point in time); they are willing and able to pay for perception. To these buyers, a GS that is priced $10-thousand less that an "equivalent" 5-Series or E-Class would be perceived as a lesser car. If it is priced so low, there must be something wrong with it.
I do not believe that styling is a factor. There is a lot of loud talk about how ugly a new Lexus is, but reaction to styling is so personal -- what someone finds offensively ugly, someone else likes. And Lexus' currently styling does not seem to have hurt overall sales. (I remember when Audi first introduced its large Singleframe grille some years ago, and the initial reaction was that it was ugly and would spell the end of Audi. Yet, Audi still uses that same basic shape -- although revised and refined, and now it is copied by other, mainstream, mass market automakers -- and sales have not dropped.
There is another factor that plagues all Toyota (and Lexus) models and that is the corporate culture of Toyota. It is a large, profitable company that does spend a lot on R&D and has a history of technological innovation, yet it is a very Japanese company, meaning that it is very conservative, much more so than other Japanese automakers, in my opinion. What this means is that its new products are innovative, with modern technology but not perceived to be changed at all over its lifetime.
We see that with its new engines. Toyota's Dynamic Force engines are the most efficient engines in the world, at 40% thermal efficiency; even Mazda's critically-acclaimed SkyActiv engines (at only 29% efficiency) cannot match them. Yet, if history is a guide, Toyota will keep its Dynamic Force engines around for a decade (or more) with very little perceived changes to them.
Toyota is not perceived to be an automaker that keeps updating its technology (or its models) continually, like other automakers are perceived to do. The result is that late into a particular model's lifecycle, it is starting to seem stale in comparison with its competitors.
Toyota should learn to be less conservative, make more little changes in its models (like updating its infotainment systems), and blow its own horn more, so that customers don't think that a 3- or 4-year old model is 10-years out of date compared to its competitors.
In North America, the reason that the GS is not selling is probably a lot more complicated, and may all stem from the fact that it is competing against its sister model, the similarly-sized, yet less expensive ES.
Typical North American buyers are probably less concerned about driving dynamics and more concerned about getting the luxury badge for a good price. The ES definitely gives these buyers that.
For more discerning buyers, I agree with BippuLexus' price-brand correlation theory. True luxury-brand buyers are not shopping for "value" and getting the most car with the most features at the lowest price (especially when shopping established luxury brands, which Lexus is at this point in time); they are willing and able to pay for perception. To these buyers, a GS that is priced $10-thousand less that an "equivalent" 5-Series or E-Class would be perceived as a lesser car. If it is priced so low, there must be something wrong with it.
I do not believe that styling is a factor. There is a lot of loud talk about how ugly a new Lexus is, but reaction to styling is so personal -- what someone finds offensively ugly, someone else likes. And Lexus' currently styling does not seem to have hurt overall sales. (I remember when Audi first introduced its large Singleframe grille some years ago, and the initial reaction was that it was ugly and would spell the end of Audi. Yet, Audi still uses that same basic shape -- although revised and refined, and now it is copied by other, mainstream, mass market automakers -- and sales have not dropped.
There is another factor that plagues all Toyota (and Lexus) models and that is the corporate culture of Toyota. It is a large, profitable company that does spend a lot on R&D and has a history of technological innovation, yet it is a very Japanese company, meaning that it is very conservative, much more so than other Japanese automakers, in my opinion. What this means is that its new products are innovative, with modern technology but not perceived to be changed at all over its lifetime.
We see that with its new engines. Toyota's Dynamic Force engines are the most efficient engines in the world, at 40% thermal efficiency; even Mazda's critically-acclaimed SkyActiv engines (at only 29% efficiency) cannot match them. Yet, if history is a guide, Toyota will keep its Dynamic Force engines around for a decade (or more) with very little perceived changes to them.
Toyota is not perceived to be an automaker that keeps updating its technology (or its models) continually, like other automakers are perceived to do. The result is that late into a particular model's lifecycle, it is starting to seem stale in comparison with its competitors.
Toyota should learn to be less conservative, make more little changes in its models (like updating its infotainment systems), and blow its own horn more, so that customers don't think that a 3- or 4-year old model is 10-years out of date compared to its competitors.
Agreed. While combine sales of ES/GS together looks good, the ES is definitely eating GS sales. They are way too similar for the average American. You are 100% correct about the average American buyer. We would buy the cheaper luxury product to save money and get into the brand - to say "we drive a Lexus." This is why so many people in the USA have no packaged or minimally packaged BMW 3 Series/Mercedes Benz C-Class - to say they drive a Benz or BMW. Literally - today alone from going to work - I saw over 10 total BMW 3 Series/C&E Class without lighting options or anything. The evidence of this is shown on US sales: that's why a 2014 BMW 3 Series that's 3 years old sold 3 times as much as a brand new designed 2014 Lexus IS. And the Lexus IS was miles ahead in new tech and luxury.
The average North American buyers, especially in the USA, really think the badge is important. If you ask any average American car consumer "what's the best car brand", they'll tell you the exotic stuff and then telling you Mercedes Benz/BMW right after. We have this belief that any Mercedes Benz is good because Mercedes Benz. If you tell someone you drive a Benz, they'll think you made it. Ironically - Mercedes Benz and BMW are rental and taxi cars in Germany and throughout Europe. Americans would be shocked by that idea. Definitely - average luxury car buyers in this segment will think if something is cheaper, there might be something wrong with it.
Agreed. I also think styling isn't a factor. Looks are subjective. Further evidence of this is: the ugly 4th gen beak Acura TL and E60 5 Series sold way more than the Lexus GS. There are uglier cars that sold much better than the Lexus GS.
I also agree with your ending paragraphs. Toyota needs to be less conservative. I mentioned this earlier about Toyota's conservatism but not to the level of your details. Toyota definitely needs to be less conservative.
Last edited by BippuLexus; 03-30-18 at 11:14 PM.
03-30-18 | 11:47 PM
#111
Lexus Champion
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,874
Likes: 3
From: Canuckistan
I don't think the rumor holds true. The Lexus GS is definitely not going anywhere since the S220 Toyota Crown is being released this fall.
I personally think the Lexus GS looks pretty good and looks like a Japanese luxury car. I don't see this non-luxury aspect you speak of. But hey, looks is subjective.
However - I don't believe styling has a big correlation to sales numbers and if it does its minimal at best. Here's an example: the 4th generation TL was so ugly, so ugly with that beak and the portions were just wrong. But, the 4th generation TL throughout its life-cycle manage to sell on average of 35K units. I mean - the 2012 Lexus GS (when it was brand new) sold 22K units and the 2012 Acura TL (which is 3 years old and ugly) sold 33K units. And we can probably all agree the 4th generation TL was an ugly boat. This is why I don't think styling had anything to do with the lack of Lexus GS sales. There were uglier cars that sold more units than the Lexus GS.
It has to do more with brand, marketing and price.
I personally think the Lexus GS looks pretty good and looks like a Japanese luxury car. I don't see this non-luxury aspect you speak of. But hey, looks is subjective.
However - I don't believe styling has a big correlation to sales numbers and if it does its minimal at best. Here's an example: the 4th generation TL was so ugly, so ugly with that beak and the portions were just wrong. But, the 4th generation TL throughout its life-cycle manage to sell on average of 35K units. I mean - the 2012 Lexus GS (when it was brand new) sold 22K units and the 2012 Acura TL (which is 3 years old and ugly) sold 33K units. And we can probably all agree the 4th generation TL was an ugly boat. This is why I don't think styling had anything to do with the lack of Lexus GS sales. There were uglier cars that sold more units than the Lexus GS.
It has to do more with brand, marketing and price.
The GS competes with the RL/RLX.
03-30-18 | 11:47 PM
#112
Lead Lap
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 608
Likes: 87
From: Ohio
I agreed with your whole statement. Average North American buyers, especially in the USA, really think the badge is important. If you ask any average American car consumer "what's the best car brand", they'll tell you the exotic stuff and then telling you Mercedes Benz/BMW right after. We have this belief that any Mercedes Benz is good because Mercedes Benz. If you tell someone you drive a Benz, they'll think you made it. Ironically - Mercedes Benz and BMW are rental and taxi cars in Germany and throughout Europe. Americans would be shocked by that idea.
Definitely - average luxury car buyers in this segment will think if something is cheaper, there might be something wrong with it.
I also agree with your ending paragraphs. Toyota needs to be less conservative. I mentioned this earlier about Toyota's conservatism but not to the level of your details. Toyota definitely needs to be less conservative.[/QUOTE]
I agree with your final statement and must give Mercedes their props for being a highly innovative company. They have only been innovating new car technoloy for 133 years. I remember when I bought my first W204 aka 4th gen C-class, it was mainly because I was enamored by their history of innovation. But the icing on the cake was when I saw this silly commercial where Mercedes claimed their car was so over engineered it could withstand the stress of a 200lb man hanging from the car door without damaging it. They actually showed a quick visual of this happening on the TV advertisement. I was sold after seeing that short commercial a hand full of times. I’m not sure if that is even possible or if other companies have built their door hinges to the same standards, but it convinced me that the C-class was the best engineered compact car money could buy. I believe they still use the slogan “the best or nothing” today.
Lexus did a similar TV spot with the original LS400 and it’s V8 engine being so smooth and refined it could drive on a dynometer without disturbing stacked wine glasses. This commercial definitely swayed my opinion that Lexus was a unique luxury car manufacturer back then.
Lexus should maybe go back to focusing on refinement and luxury for their tv ads.
Definitely - average luxury car buyers in this segment will think if something is cheaper, there might be something wrong with it.
I also agree with your ending paragraphs. Toyota needs to be less conservative. I mentioned this earlier about Toyota's conservatism but not to the level of your details. Toyota definitely needs to be less conservative.[/QUOTE]
I agree with your final statement and must give Mercedes their props for being a highly innovative company. They have only been innovating new car technoloy for 133 years. I remember when I bought my first W204 aka 4th gen C-class, it was mainly because I was enamored by their history of innovation. But the icing on the cake was when I saw this silly commercial where Mercedes claimed their car was so over engineered it could withstand the stress of a 200lb man hanging from the car door without damaging it. They actually showed a quick visual of this happening on the TV advertisement. I was sold after seeing that short commercial a hand full of times. I’m not sure if that is even possible or if other companies have built their door hinges to the same standards, but it convinced me that the C-class was the best engineered compact car money could buy. I believe they still use the slogan “the best or nothing” today.
Lexus did a similar TV spot with the original LS400 and it’s V8 engine being so smooth and refined it could drive on a dynometer without disturbing stacked wine glasses. This commercial definitely swayed my opinion that Lexus was a unique luxury car manufacturer back then.
Lexus should maybe go back to focusing on refinement and luxury for their tv ads.
03-31-18 | 12:56 AM
#113
I agree. The infotainment system is important to buyers. However, I don't think the Lexus infotainment system is that bad - it has room to improve.
I remember a time when people talked hella **** on the iDrive because it sucked. But BMW still sold like hotcakes. If someone really likes the car or the brand, they'll force themselves to like the car. The DCT on the E46 M3 was trash but people still got the E46 with the DCT.
I remember a time when people talked hella **** on the iDrive because it sucked. But BMW still sold like hotcakes. If someone really likes the car or the brand, they'll force themselves to like the car. The DCT on the E46 M3 was trash but people still got the E46 with the DCT.
03-31-18 | 02:47 AM
#114
Pole Position
Joined: Jan 2004
Posts: 2,675
Likes: 5
From: Florida
This is evidence of the mindset being carried over from Toyota. Unpopular models with no volume will get the ax. Thats why Lexus still has a ways to go in catching up to the Germans. Luxury cars are not always about volume. Lexus has to learn to cultivate, grow and improve their models and not only keep what sells.
Problem with next gen IS and RC is the drivetrain, if the standard drivetrain remains uncompetitive (IS250 replacement) nothing will save it from a demise. They need a proper 2.0 or 2.5 turbo to compete, V6 twin turbo is optional but a welcome addition to build up the product strength and awareness. Lets see if Lexus has cojones to come up with such "bold" move that each of their competitor already has. If they don't pull it off it means they are giving up on RWD altogether. I mean at this point it has to be beyond obvious to them that lackluster and outdated powertrains are the one of the elite reasons why RWD products are not selling. They want to command the premium pricing with a ten year old engine or half arsed - quick fix turbo four attempt of the ten year old engine.
I have to congratulate them for pulling off UX, they should have done that at the same time when they've debuted CT cause they had the means to do so and they would have conquered the economy premium market 5 years ago. Arguably at that time hatches were already dyeing off since CT was at least one generation late to fight A3 but again better late then never. If UX has debuted along side CT as some family siblings Lexus would have had a whole pie for themselves but it didn't. It didn't because Lexus was not mature enough back in 2011 like it is now in 2018.
03-31-18 | 05:14 PM
#115
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,371
Likes: 488
From: Ca
I agreed with your whole statement. Average North American buyers, especially in the USA, really think the badge is important. If you ask any average American car consumer "what's the best car brand", they'll tell you the exotic stuff and then telling you Mercedes Benz/BMW right after. We have this belief that any Mercedes Benz is good because Mercedes Benz. If you tell someone you drive a Benz, they'll think you made it.Ironically - Mercedes Benz and BMW are rental and taxi cars in Germany and throughout Europe. Americans would be shocked by that idea.
Definitely - average luxury car buyers in this segment will think if something is cheaper, there might be something wrong with it.
I also agree with your ending paragraphs. Toyota needs to be less conservative. I mentioned this earlier about Toyota's conservatism but not to the level of your details. Toyota definitely needs to be less conservative.
Definitely - average luxury car buyers in this segment will think if something is cheaper, there might be something wrong with it.
I also agree with your ending paragraphs. Toyota needs to be less conservative. I mentioned this earlier about Toyota's conservatism but not to the level of your details. Toyota definitely needs to be less conservative.
What is most important when it comes to choosing a motor vehicle is subjective and varies from person to person.
However, we make that a more objective parameter by "polling".
Notice how I don't say that brand name is "the third" most important parameter when choosing a motor car, but I just say that brand name is "one of" the most important parameters when choosing a motor car - this is because the actual rank will vary from survey to survey.
However, generally speaking most surveys find brand name and styling amongst the top five criteria when choosing a motor car.
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...ity-car-buyers
Only 4% of car buyers place safety at the top of their list of criteria for choosing a new vehicle, according to new research.
But despite safety being a low priority, Co-op Insurance found that over three quarters (77%) of drivers want the motor industry to be more proactive when highlighting the safety features of new and used vehicles.
The research has revealed that although 79% of consumers say that car safety is very important when buying a car, 71% don't actually place safety in their top five priories when buying: price, value for money and car brand are instead the top three criteria when buying a new vehicle.
Top 10 car buying considerations
1. Price
2. Value for money
3. Brand
4. Mileage
5. Colour
6. Appearance (if there are scratches)
7. Performance (how fast it goes)
8. Fuel economy
9. Size
10. Safety
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 03-31-18 at 06:38 PM.
03-31-18 | 05:39 PM
#116
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,371
Likes: 488
From: Ca
However - I don't believe styling has a big correlation to sales numbers and if it does its minimal at best. Here's an example: the 4th generation TL was so ugly, so ugly with that beak and the portions were just wrong. But, the 4th generation TL throughout its life-cycle manage to sell on average of 35K units. I mean - the 2012 Lexus GS (when it was brand new) sold 22K units and the 2012 Acura TL (which is 3 years old and ugly) sold 33K units. And we can probably all agree the 4th generation TL was an ugly boat. This is why I don't think styling had anything to do with the lack of Lexus GS sales. There were uglier cars that sold more units than the Lexus GS.
It has to do more with brand, marketing and price.
Agreed. I think the E60 is one ugly car as well but yet it sold insanely well.
The 3rd generation Lexus GS looked miles better than the BMW E60 5 Series but the E60 5 Series on average sold 10-30K more cars per year. This is why I think styling plays almost no effect on the sale - if anything, its minimal.
Agreed. I also think styling isn't a factor. Looks are subjective. Further evidence of this is: the ugly 4th gen beak Acura TL and E60 5 Series sold way more than the Lexus GS. There are uglier cars that sold much better than the Lexus GS.
It has to do more with brand, marketing and price.
Agreed. I think the E60 is one ugly car as well but yet it sold insanely well.
The 3rd generation Lexus GS looked miles better than the BMW E60 5 Series but the E60 5 Series on average sold 10-30K more cars per year. This is why I think styling plays almost no effect on the sale - if anything, its minimal.
Agreed. I also think styling isn't a factor. Looks are subjective. Further evidence of this is: the ugly 4th gen beak Acura TL and E60 5 Series sold way more than the Lexus GS. There are uglier cars that sold much better than the Lexus GS.
Acura TL shares budget FWD platform with Honda Accord, and is similar price or even cheaper than FWD-based Lexus ES.
TL/TLX is NOT on par with premium rear drive multilink suspension GS.
1995-98 Satisfactory looking 1st Gen TL peaked at 31k.
1998-03 Good looking 2nd Gen TL peaked at 69k.
2003-08 Satisfactory looking 3rd Gen TL peaked at 78k.
2008-14 Iffy looking 4th Gen TL tanked by peaking at only 46k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2014-20 Iffy looking current 5th Gen TLX also tanked by peaking at only 47k units.
For comparison, the equivalent 2007-13 Lexus 5ES reached peak sales of 82k units/year.
Current 2013-19 6ES peaked at 72k.
Thus the 2008-14 4th Gen Acura TL has not sold that well compared to its predecessors.
Styling is certainly subjective and arguable, but numerous studies have shown that styling plays a major role in sales volume.
Also, no amount of marketing and reasonable pricing [without sending Lexus broke], will get the current generation 4GS to debut as well as the previous generation 3GS.
It's checkmate, and Lexus needs to go back to the design stage with 5GS...
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 03-31-18 at 08:40 PM.
03-31-18 | 05:50 PM
#117
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 2,300
Likes: 4
From: RightHere
Thing to remember Acura is that it was always a fwd company and their drivetrains were always transverse engine layouts. They did incredibly well with that setup but their peak sales were in the mid-2000s. After that they never did quite as well. The "beak" era and weird styling didn't help. The GS, 5 and E class are all proper luxury car architectures. The GS simply doesn't have the brand cachet, but a big part of that is in fact, clear styling cues. It kept changing all the time. The Germans tend to stick to styling/grills etc.
IMO, people don't necessarily avoid a car because it doesn't suit their styling tastes but OTH, they don't flock to it either. If the German cars were ugly as people say they are/were, they would see a serious dip in sales despite the badge prestige factor.
IMO, people don't necessarily avoid a car because it doesn't suit their styling tastes but OTH, they don't flock to it either. If the German cars were ugly as people say they are/were, they would see a serious dip in sales despite the badge prestige factor.
03-31-18 | 10:24 PM
#118
Racer
Joined: Aug 2012
Posts: 1,927
Likes: 15
From: CALIFORNIA
I've always wondered what would happen if they killed the ES and only had the GS.
Would people buy the GS for $10k more instead? I don't think so.
If the ES was no more, there would probably be a 3000+ sales hole every month. I think Lexus knows its ES targets luxury shoppers who want bang for the buck and a roomy interior.
ES shoppers would look elsewhere and ignore the GS because the GS doesn't really provide value for the money.
10+ years ago, the GS was the value alternative to the germans. It was much cheaper.
Now the GS has crept way up in price, downsized its engine, and doesn't even include real leather as standard equipment.
That's not much different from Merc and BMW, which people could acquire for not much more.
The GS doesn't have the cachet to command similar pricing.
The GS also lacks road presence relative to merc and bmw.
The current one looks like a crying anime character.
If Ford can create a RWD mustang for $25000, I don't see why lexus can't do a RWD GS starting from the low $40k.
Would people buy the GS for $10k more instead? I don't think so.
If the ES was no more, there would probably be a 3000+ sales hole every month. I think Lexus knows its ES targets luxury shoppers who want bang for the buck and a roomy interior.
ES shoppers would look elsewhere and ignore the GS because the GS doesn't really provide value for the money.
10+ years ago, the GS was the value alternative to the germans. It was much cheaper.
Now the GS has crept way up in price, downsized its engine, and doesn't even include real leather as standard equipment.
That's not much different from Merc and BMW, which people could acquire for not much more.
The GS doesn't have the cachet to command similar pricing.
The GS also lacks road presence relative to merc and bmw.
The current one looks like a crying anime character.
If Ford can create a RWD mustang for $25000, I don't see why lexus can't do a RWD GS starting from the low $40k.
03-31-18 | 11:13 PM
#119
Lead Lap
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 4,371
Likes: 488
From: Ca
Yes, you're too right pman6.
The Camry/Avalon-based ES is a cash cow for Lexus.
Just look at the Highlander-based RX which was again America's biggest selling luxury vehicle again last year, using such low cost FWD-based underpinnings too - again, a real cash cow for Lexus.
The ES brings in the money to pay for reskinning the midsize luxury RWD Toyota Crown-based Lexus GS.
No wonder Toyota Motor Corp has the most equity amongst its peers in the world @ $171 billion dollars...
The Camry/Avalon-based ES is a cash cow for Lexus.
Just look at the Highlander-based RX which was again America's biggest selling luxury vehicle again last year, using such low cost FWD-based underpinnings too - again, a real cash cow for Lexus.
The ES brings in the money to pay for reskinning the midsize luxury RWD Toyota Crown-based Lexus GS.
No wonder Toyota Motor Corp has the most equity amongst its peers in the world @ $171 billion dollars...
04-01-18 | 12:58 AM
#120
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Jan 2018
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 11
From: California
Problem with next gen IS and RC is the drivetrain, if the standard drivetrain remains uncompetitive (IS250 replacement) nothing will save it from a demise. They need a proper 2.0 or 2.5 turbo to compete, V6 twin turbo is optional but a welcome addition to build up the product strength and awareness. Lets see if Lexus has cojones to come up with such "bold" move that each of their competitor already has. If they don't pull it off it means they are giving up on RWD altogether. I mean at this point it has to be beyond obvious to them that lackluster and outdated powertrains are the one of the elite reasons why RWD products are not selling. They want to command the premium pricing with a ten year old engine or half arsed - quick fix turbo four attempt of the ten year old engine.
I have to congratulate them for pulling off UX, they should have done that at the same time when they've debuted CT cause they had the means to do so and they would have conquered the economy premium market 5 years ago. Arguably at that time hatches were already dyeing off since CT was at least one generation late to fight A3 but again better late then never. If UX has debuted along side CT as some family siblings Lexus would have had a whole pie for themselves but it didn't. It didn't because Lexus was not mature enough back in 2011 like it is now in 2018.
I have to congratulate them for pulling off UX, they should have done that at the same time when they've debuted CT cause they had the means to do so and they would have conquered the economy premium market 5 years ago. Arguably at that time hatches were already dyeing off since CT was at least one generation late to fight A3 but again better late then never. If UX has debuted along side CT as some family siblings Lexus would have had a whole pie for themselves but it didn't. It didn't because Lexus was not mature enough back in 2011 like it is now in 2018.
Note: The Lexus IS Turbo and 2GR-FKS in the IS350 isn't 10 years old. The Turbo in the Lexus IS was introduced in 2014 which makes it 4 years old. The 2GR-FKS in the Lexus IS350 was introduced in 2016 which makes it 2 years old. These engines are new, not outdated.
Note: Engine size does not hurt Lexus IS sales. In 2014, the Lexus IS250/350's engine was about 8 years old. The 2014 Lexus IS sold 51.3 units - close to matching its same sales number in 2006 when the engine was brand new. 2015 Lexus IS250/350 sold about 46.4K units with the engines being 9 years old. Also - majority of Lexus IS sales are the Lexus IS250 models, which is a slow V6. This is proof that your theory about Lexus IS dying out because of engine performance is false.
What is most important when it comes to choosing a motor vehicle is subjective and varies from person to person.
However, we make that a more objective parameter by "polling".
Depending on the survey, one example below, brand name is one of the most important parameters when choosing a motor vehicle.
Notice how I don't say that brand name is "the third" most important parameter when choosing a motor car, but I just say that brand name is "one of" the most important parameters when choosing a motor car - this is because the actual rank will vary from survey to survey.
However, generally speaking most surveys find brand name and styling amongst the top five criteria when choosing a motor car.
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...ity-car-buyers
Only 4% of car buyers place safety at the top of their list of criteria for choosing a new vehicle, according to new research.
But despite safety being a low priority, Co-op Insurance found that over three quarters (77%) of drivers want the motor industry to be more proactive when highlighting the safety features of new and used vehicles.
The research has revealed that although 79% of consumers say that car safety is very important when buying a car, 71% don't actually place safety in their top five priories when buying: price, value for money and car brand are instead the top three criteria when buying a new vehicle.
Top 10 car buying considerations
1. Price
2. Value for money
3. Brand
4. Mileage
5. Colour
6. Appearance (if there are scratches)
7. Performance (how fast it goes)
8. Fuel economy
9. Size
10. Safety
.
However, we make that a more objective parameter by "polling".
Depending on the survey, one example below, brand name is one of the most important parameters when choosing a motor vehicle.
Notice how I don't say that brand name is "the third" most important parameter when choosing a motor car, but I just say that brand name is "one of" the most important parameters when choosing a motor car - this is because the actual rank will vary from survey to survey.
However, generally speaking most surveys find brand name and styling amongst the top five criteria when choosing a motor car.
https://www.express.co.uk/life-style...ity-car-buyers
Only 4% of car buyers place safety at the top of their list of criteria for choosing a new vehicle, according to new research.
But despite safety being a low priority, Co-op Insurance found that over three quarters (77%) of drivers want the motor industry to be more proactive when highlighting the safety features of new and used vehicles.
The research has revealed that although 79% of consumers say that car safety is very important when buying a car, 71% don't actually place safety in their top five priories when buying: price, value for money and car brand are instead the top three criteria when buying a new vehicle.
Top 10 car buying considerations
1. Price
2. Value for money
3. Brand
4. Mileage
5. Colour
6. Appearance (if there are scratches)
7. Performance (how fast it goes)
8. Fuel economy
9. Size
10. Safety
.
Mr Burns is absolutely correct.
Acura TL shares budget FWD platform with Honda Accord, and is similar price or even cheaper than FWD-based Lexus ES.
TL/TLX is NOT on par with premium rear drive multilink suspension GS.
1995-98 Satisfactory looking 1st Gen TL peaked at 31k.
1998-03 Good looking 2nd Gen TL peaked at 69k.
2003-08 Satisfactory looking 3rd Gen TL peaked at 78k.
2008-14 Iffy looking 4th Gen TL tanked by peaking at only 46k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2014-20 Iffy looking current 5th Gen TLX also tanked by peaking at only 47k units.
For comparison, the equivalent 2007-13 Lexus 5ES reached peak sales of 82k units/year.
Current 2013-19 6ES peaked at 72k.
Thus the 2008-14 4th Gen Acura TL has not sold that well compared to its predecessors.
Styling is certainly subjective and arguable, but numerous studies have shown that styling plays a major role in sales volume.
Also, no amount of marketing and reasonable pricing [without sending Lexus broke], will get the current generation 4GS to debut as well as the previous generation 3GS.
It's checkmate, and Lexus needs to go back to the design stage with 5GS...
.
Acura TL shares budget FWD platform with Honda Accord, and is similar price or even cheaper than FWD-based Lexus ES.
TL/TLX is NOT on par with premium rear drive multilink suspension GS.
1995-98 Satisfactory looking 1st Gen TL peaked at 31k.
1998-03 Good looking 2nd Gen TL peaked at 69k.
2003-08 Satisfactory looking 3rd Gen TL peaked at 78k.
2008-14 Iffy looking 4th Gen TL tanked by peaking at only 46k!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
2014-20 Iffy looking current 5th Gen TLX also tanked by peaking at only 47k units.
For comparison, the equivalent 2007-13 Lexus 5ES reached peak sales of 82k units/year.
Current 2013-19 6ES peaked at 72k.
Thus the 2008-14 4th Gen Acura TL has not sold that well compared to its predecessors.
Styling is certainly subjective and arguable, but numerous studies have shown that styling plays a major role in sales volume.
Also, no amount of marketing and reasonable pricing [without sending Lexus broke], will get the current generation 4GS to debut as well as the previous generation 3GS.
It's checkmate, and Lexus needs to go back to the design stage with 5GS...
.
I do fully understand the Acura TL sold horribly compared to the its previous models. However, I maintain styling plays a minimal affect into sales figures. While styling might hurt sales, it won't be a major component. IE: For a car like the Acura TL, there were more pressing matters why the car tanked in sales. It had to do with brand, price and value. The Acura TL was sold for about over 40K with options. To the average luxury consumer, Acura isn't a "top tier" brand. (Same goes for Infiniti. Evidence of this is shown by some people spelling Infiniti with a y - Infinity. You know brand prestige is low when people can't spell your brand.) Being that Acura isn't considered a "top tier" brand in the average luxury consumers eyes - people will ask themselves - "why should I pay over 40K for an Acura?" "what's the value?" These luxury buyers will look towards the Lexus IS350 - which is about a few thousand dollars more expensive. These buyers will likely shell out the extra money to get a better brand This is price-brand correlation again. Basically - the Lexus GS is in the same situation as the 4th gen Acura TL was once in.
Another example of this: The Acura TL costed over 40K with options but performs worst than the Infiniti G37 Sedan (which costed the same) - this goes into the price-value situation. The average luxury buyer will look at an equivalent brand of Acura, such as Infiniti. They'll likely see that both cars costing the same. But they'll likely end up purchasing the one that offers more value to dollar. IE: Which one offers more for the same price. The Infiniti G37 performs like a monster and offered more equipment compared to the Acura TL. This is another reason why the Acura TL sales tank.
Again - my point is - the Acura TL had more than just a styling issue. It had a ton of issues that plague its sales. But I would argue styling wasn't its biggest problem because its subjective. I knew people that thought the 4G TL was good looking.
Thing to remember Acura is that it was always a fwd company and their drivetrains were always transverse engine layouts. They did incredibly well with that setup but their peak sales were in the mid-2000s. After that they never did quite as well. The "beak" era and weird styling didn't help. The GS, 5 and E class are all proper luxury car architectures. The GS simply doesn't have the brand cachet, but a big part of that is in fact, clear styling cues. It kept changing all the time. The Germans tend to stick to styling/grills etc.
IMO, people don't necessarily avoid a car because it doesn't suit their styling tastes but OTH, they don't flock to it either. If the German cars were ugly as people say they are/were, they would see a serious dip in sales despite the badge prestige factor.
IMO, people don't necessarily avoid a car because it doesn't suit their styling tastes but OTH, they don't flock to it either. If the German cars were ugly as people say they are/were, they would see a serious dip in sales despite the badge prestige factor.
The E60 5 Series was ugly as hell, but the E60 5 Series sales were insanely good. On average it sold about 50K units throughout its life-cycle.
I've always wondered what would happen if they killed the ES and only had the GS.
Would people buy the GS for $10k more instead? I don't think so.
If the ES was no more, there would probably be a 3000+ sales hole every month. I think Lexus knows its ES targets luxury shoppers who want bang for the buck and a roomy interior.
ES shoppers would look elsewhere and ignore the GS because the GS doesn't really provide value for the money.
10+ years ago, the GS was the value alternative to the germans. It was much cheaper.
Now the GS has crept way up in price, downsized its engine, and doesn't even include real leather as standard equipment.
That's not much different from Merc and BMW, which people could acquire for not much more.
The GS doesn't have the cachet to command similar pricing.
The GS also lacks road presence relative to merc and bmw.
The current one looks like a crying anime character.
If Ford can create a RWD mustang for $25000, I don't see why lexus can't do a RWD GS starting from the low $40k.
Would people buy the GS for $10k more instead? I don't think so.
If the ES was no more, there would probably be a 3000+ sales hole every month. I think Lexus knows its ES targets luxury shoppers who want bang for the buck and a roomy interior.
ES shoppers would look elsewhere and ignore the GS because the GS doesn't really provide value for the money.
10+ years ago, the GS was the value alternative to the germans. It was much cheaper.
Now the GS has crept way up in price, downsized its engine, and doesn't even include real leather as standard equipment.
That's not much different from Merc and BMW, which people could acquire for not much more.
The GS doesn't have the cachet to command similar pricing.
The GS also lacks road presence relative to merc and bmw.
The current one looks like a crying anime character.
If Ford can create a RWD mustang for $25000, I don't see why lexus can't do a RWD GS starting from the low $40k.
So the Lexus GS pricing its fine because of the amount of standard equipment its offering. The Lexus GS commands only about 55K for the Lexus GS loaded. The 5 Series/E-Class will set you back over 65K. If you look at it, the Lexus GS is cheaper and offers you just as much as the BMW/Mercedes. It just doesn't offer you a brand perception. Wealthy people in this market tend to think the BMW/Mercedes Benz is better so they'll blow out another 10K for it - you can do that when money isn't an object.