Future of Lexus: Electric or Fuel-Cell?
#46
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hopefully lexus can make a big splash with a BEV.
i have zero interest in hydrogen fuel cells.
i have zero interest in hydrogen fuel cells.
#47
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I suspect Lexus will mass produce both BEV and HFCEV's.
However, the vast majority will be BEV's for use in dense metropolitan areas.
The minority will be HFCEV's for long range vehicles, and commercial vehicles.
A commercial vehicle is essentially a long range vehicle in itself - using hydrogen for quick refuelling, and energy dense long range.
However, the vast majority will be BEV's for use in dense metropolitan areas.
The minority will be HFCEV's for long range vehicles, and commercial vehicles.
A commercial vehicle is essentially a long range vehicle in itself - using hydrogen for quick refuelling, and energy dense long range.
#48
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I can see hydrogen being viable for heavy transport vehicles.
I suggest a poll added to this thread
What would like to see from Lexus
Fuel Cells
Battery Electric Vehicles
I suggest a poll added to this thread
What would like to see from Lexus
Fuel Cells
Battery Electric Vehicles
#49
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Another article on fuel cell vehicles in the far East. Do you think they have a chance?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1W22VQ
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1W22VQ
#50
Driver School Candidate
#51
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But proponents counter hydrogen is the cleanest energy source for autos available...
Hydrogen’s proponents point to how clean it is as an energy source as water and heat are the only byproducts and how it can be made from a number of sources, including methane, coal, water, even garbage.
Hydrogen’s proponents point to how clean it is as an energy source as water and heat are the only byproducts and how it can be made from a number of sources, including methane, coal, water, even garbage.
#52
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BEVs have proven to be the solution for urban and even suburban use at this point while hydrogen still has a lot of problems.
I still think long haul trucking will need hydrogen but I don't see momentum shifting for small vehicles.
I hope Lexus releases a great BEV. I want Lexus reliability in my car. Make a deal with Tesla to use their Supercharger network too! Just don't touch their manufacturing lol.
I still think long haul trucking will need hydrogen but I don't see momentum shifting for small vehicles.
I hope Lexus releases a great BEV. I want Lexus reliability in my car. Make a deal with Tesla to use their Supercharger network too! Just don't touch their manufacturing lol.
#53
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Another article on fuel cell vehicles in the far East. Do you think they have a chance?
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1W22VQ
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1W22VQ
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#54
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WHY HYDROGEN?
Hydrogen’s proponents point to how clean it is as an energy source as water and heat are the only byproducts and how it can be made from a number of sources, including methane, coal, water, even garbage. Resource-poor Japan sees hydrogen as a way to greater energy security.They also argue that driving ranges and refueling times for FCVs are comparable to gasoline cars, whereas EVs require hours to recharge and provide only a few hundred kilometers of range.
Many backers in China and Japan see FCVs as complementing EVs rather than replacing them. In general, hydrogen is seen as the more efficient choice for heavier vehicles that drive longer distances, hence the current emphasis on city buses.
EV is the way to the future.
EV is more energy efficient than HFCEV, but presently liquid HFCEV has quicker refuelling for long range vehicles.
100 kWh of renewable energy can generate some 69 kWh of energy in an EV, but the same 100 kWh of renewable energy can only generate some 19-23 kWh of energy in a HFCEV.
HFCEV also has the disadvantage of being less energy dense storage than gasoline, such that much larger, or even multiple hydrogen tanks are needed, and while this is a problem for coupes and sedans, it is easily absorbed by the much greater sizes of CUV/SUV tall wagons and commercial vehicles like buses and trucks.
2nd pic below, notice how Mirai needs two whopping hydrogen fuel tanks, one under the rear seat base, and a second whopping tank between the rear axle!
![](https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.clublexus.com-vbulletin/1897x1566/3_b429233eeda877b9cf204f5b2e44a023d8639bea.jpg)
![](https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/www.clublexus.com-vbulletin/1600x900/bbua1a5_f57c88c885d2fd8857fdb392394ee6c08adf050d.jpg)
OPINION
"Tesla" is the way to the future?
Tesla is only the present.
Which manufacturer actually dominates the EV future is anyone's guess.
Ford was first with the mass produced Model T - but Toyota Motor Corp doesn't give a hoot!
S Class, 7 Series and Jaguar XJ dominated the 1980's - but the 1990 Lexus LS400 couldn't care less.
Which manufacturer actually dominates the EV future is anyone's game.
Give the established marques a bit of time, and anything can happen. Eg Taycan has already beaten Model S on the Nurburgring, so Elon needs a non-production plaid - but Porsche will also ready their own non-production upgrade - in a "tit for tat" - though Porsche doesn't need to boast about it, let alone Toyota Motor Corp.
With their financial capacity, money certainly has the advantage....
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 09-18-19 at 02:45 PM.
#55
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One thing missing from that chart is it takes significant energy to pump hydrogen from the tanker into the station storage tanks. And not sure the chart is accounting for leakage which is impossible to eliminate with hydrogen.
#56
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I think HFC could be good for long haul trucking and vehicles with fixed routes like buses. Both large vehicles that can handle a lot of tank space and with fixed routes they can go to known refueling stations so they don’t have to be ‘all over’ like gas stations today.
As for energy needed to produce hydrogen it might sound counter-intuitive to have that come from renewables (solar, wind, hydro) but it might make sense because recharging vehicles with those may not be the best net use.
anyway, i’m trying to keep an open mind.
the hideous and useless mirai is not the answer though.
As for energy needed to produce hydrogen it might sound counter-intuitive to have that come from renewables (solar, wind, hydro) but it might make sense because recharging vehicles with those may not be the best net use.
anyway, i’m trying to keep an open mind.
the hideous and useless mirai is not the answer though.
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#57
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Have you ever seen any scenario where renewable generation>grid>batteries>propulsion was less efficient than any other method?
#58
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so if we have a CRAPLOAD of available hydrogen made from natural gas for example, that might make more sense, since it can be made ‘off line’ not directly as needed like recharging EVs. I’m no energy scientist so i don’t know that math on energy needed to capture hydrogen vs. using that same energy for EVs but i’d bet it’s a net win to produce hydrogen (e.g., potential miles that can be driven, vs. just using the electricity for driving). Hydrogen (like natural gas, gasoline, etc.) is captured potential energy because it burns/explodes.
But way more learned people than me, like Japan’s government and industry leaders have concluded hydrogen is the way to go. Now they may be WAY off base, but i’m sure they have a lot of well-researched reasons.
i know EV fans such as yourself just think everything can happen with ‘clean electricity’ but i don’t think it’s that simple as the volumes get higher. Teslas volumes are still minuscule. In California where they do best they have 5% of sales and that amounts to 50% of tesla’s u.s. sales. A good start, but still tiny numbers.
To be clear i’m not saying EVs are bad - i will definitely look at getting one next cycle!
#59
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No, but it’s not that simple. Because it’s also about availability / capacity. If we want say 200 million EVs in the u.s., we’re going to need a CRAPLOAD more electric capacity i believe, and besides the challenge of it, i personally don’t want the entire u.s. buried in solar panels and wind turbines (which are hideous).
so if we have a CRAPLOAD of available hydrogen made from natural gas for example,
that might make more sense, since it can be made ‘off line’ not directly as needed like recharging EVs. I’m no energy scientist so i don’t know that math on energy needed to capture hydrogen vs. using that same energy for EVs but i’d bet it’s a net win to produce hydrogen (e.g., potential miles that can be driven, vs. just using the electricity for driving).
Hydrogen (like natural gas, gasoline, etc.) is captured potential energy because it burns/explodes.
But way more learned people than me, like Japan’s government and industry leaders have concluded hydrogen is the way to go. Now they may be WAY off base, but i’m sure they have a lot of well-researched reasons.
i know EV fans such as yourself just think everything can happen with ‘clean electricity’ but i don’t think it’s that simple as the volumes get higher. Teslas volumes are still minuscule. In California where they do best they have 5% of sales and that amounts to 50% of tesla’s u.s. sales. A good start, but still tiny numbers.
To be clear i’m not saying EVs are bad - i will definitely look at getting one next cycle!
Here's what's currently happening, VW, Ford, GM, Tesla and others are all talking about or bringing out BEVs. Toyota is talking about "electrified" vehicles which is code for we don't have any BEVs so pretend our hybrids are in the same class.