bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

hopefully lexus can make a big splash with a BEV.

i have zero interest in hydrogen fuel cells.

peteharvey

I suspect Lexus will mass produce both BEV and HFCEV's.
However, the vast majority will be BEV's for use in dense metropolitan areas.
The minority will be HFCEV's for long range vehicles, and commercial vehicles.
A commercial vehicle is essentially a long range vehicle in itself - using hydrogen for quick refuelling, and energy dense long range.

LeX2K

I can see hydrogen being viable for heavy transport vehicles.

I suggest a poll added to this thread

What would like to see from Lexus
Fuel Cells
Battery Electric Vehicles

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

Another article on fuel cell vehicles in the far East. Do you think they have a chance?

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-a...-idUSKBN1W22VQ

n134sky

Why hydrogen when EV is a much better response to he explosion?

LeX2K

Sigh, I think we really are living in an idiocracy.

ChronoR

BEVs have proven to be the solution for urban and even suburban use at this point while hydrogen still has a lot of problems.

I still think long haul trucking will need hydrogen but I don't see momentum shifting for small vehicles.

I hope Lexus releases a great BEV. I want Lexus reliability in my car. Make a deal with Tesla to use their Supercharger network too! Just don't touch their manufacturing lol.

EZZ

I think its not going to fly in the US. Electricity has several advantages that will be too difficult to overcome. Building charging stations is fractional cost compared to a hydrogen station. Also, don't believe the Hydrogen Fuel Cells are cleaner hype...it takes a ton of energy to create hydrogen fuel cells such as the process to extract the hydrogen and the electricity to create this is as dirty or clean depending on the source of electricity. By the time Fuel Cells climb the developmental ladder, how far will battery tech or charging tech have gone? The Porsche can already have a theoretical limit of 350kw. If the batteries get to 500 miles of range by putting in a 150kwh battery, then theoretically, you can probably get to 300 miles of range in ~15 minutes... Further development on charging will probably have comparable figures to traditional gasoline in 10 years. By that time, EVs will probably have major market share and will keep climbing. Plus, i'm not too thrilled about having to drive a mini Hindinburg as my daily commuter

peteharvey

FACT
EV is the way to the future.

EV is more energy efficient than HFCEV, but presently liquid HFCEV has quicker refuelling for long range vehicles.
100 kWh of renewable energy can generate some 69 kWh of energy in an EV, but the same 100 kWh of renewable energy can only generate some 19-23 kWh of energy in a HFCEV.

HFCEV also has the disadvantage of being less energy dense storage than gasoline, such that much larger, or even multiple hydrogen tanks are needed, and while this is a problem for coupes and sedans, it is easily absorbed by the much greater sizes of CUV/SUV tall wagons and commercial vehicles like buses and trucks.

2nd pic below, notice how Mirai needs two whopping hydrogen fuel tanks, one under the rear seat base, and a second whopping tank between the rear axle!







OPINION
"Tesla" is the way to the future?

Tesla is only the present.
Which manufacturer actually dominates the EV future is anyone's guess.

Ford was first with the mass produced Model T - but Toyota Motor Corp doesn't give a hoot!
S Class, 7 Series and Jaguar XJ dominated the 1980's - but the 1990 Lexus LS400 couldn't care less.

Which manufacturer actually dominates the EV future is anyone's game.
Give the established marques a bit of time, and anything can happen. Eg Taycan has already beaten Model S on the Nurburgring, so Elon needs a non-production plaid - but Porsche will also ready their own non-production upgrade - in a "tit for tat" - though Porsche doesn't need to boast about it, let alone Toyota Motor Corp.
With their financial capacity, money certainly has the advantage....
.

LeX2K

One thing missing from that chart is it takes significant energy to pump hydrogen from the tanker into the station storage tanks. And not sure the chart is accounting for leakage which is impossible to eliminate with hydrogen.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

I think HFC could be good for long haul trucking and vehicles with fixed routes like buses. Both large vehicles that can handle a lot of tank space and with fixed routes they can go to known refueling stations so they don’t have to be ‘all over’ like gas stations today.

As for energy needed to produce hydrogen it might sound counter-intuitive to have that come from renewables (solar, wind, hydro) but it might make sense because recharging vehicles with those may not be the best net use.

anyway, i’m trying to keep an open mind.

the hideous and useless mirai is not the answer though.

LeX2K

Have you ever seen any scenario where renewable generation>grid>batteries>propulsion was less efficient than any other method?

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

No, but it’s not that simple. Because it’s also about availability / capacity. If we want say 200 million EVs in the u.s., we’re going to need a CRAPLOAD more electric capacity i believe, and besides the challenge of it, i personally don’t want the entire u.s. buried in solar panels and wind turbines (which are hideous).

so if we have a CRAPLOAD of available hydrogen made from natural gas for example, that might make more sense, since it can be made ‘off line’ not directly as needed like recharging EVs. I’m no energy scientist so i don’t know that math on energy needed to capture hydrogen vs. using that same energy for EVs but i’d bet it’s a net win to produce hydrogen (e.g., potential miles that can be driven, vs. just using the electricity for driving). Hydrogen (like natural gas, gasoline, etc.) is captured potential energy because it burns/explodes.

But way more learned people than me, like Japan’s government and industry leaders have concluded hydrogen is the way to go. Now they may be WAY off base, but i’m sure they have a lot of well-researched reasons.

i know EV fans such as yourself just think everything can happen with ‘clean electricity’ but i don’t think it’s that simple as the volumes get higher. Teslas volumes are still minuscule. In California where they do best they have 5% of sales and that amounts to 50% of tesla’s u.s. sales. A good start, but still tiny numbers.

To be clear i’m not saying EVs are bad - i will definitely look at getting one next cycle!

LeX2K

I'm no fan of wind power in fact I hate wind turbines. I like the idea of solar on every roof but currently the installations are way too ugly. I am a fan of giant solar farms in uninhabited and largely unlivable areas. Nuclear generation powering BEVs is easily the greenest option, if we use modern nuclear plants.
This doesn't make sense, use the natural gas directly to run a generator. Why would you go from natural gas, to hydrogen, into a tank, pumped into many smaller tanks, shipped by truck, into another tank, then into another tank then used to generate electricity to drive the wheels. This is in fact insane.
FCV is 1/3rd as efficient as a BEV, well to wheel it's not even close. On grid load the BEV makes the grid much more efficient because it can capture energy that is normally wasted since the grid can't turn itself up and down quickly so much of the time it is waiting for surge demand.
Hydrogen is not an energy source it is only energy storage, and a poor one at that. Oil is the same in respect to be ultimately stored energy from the sun but it's dense energy and plentiful (for now) that's why we use it.
Those reasons have little to do with environmental concerns or energy efficiency.
Do you have any data to show if every car was BEV we'd have to massively build up the grid? And if so how much? How much would it cost? And if we don't do that and use hydrogen instead how much would that infrastructure cost? How many hydrogen production plants would we need? Is that going to fall from the sky? How much will it cost to replace all gas stations with hydrogen from what I've read each station costs $1 million or more a BEV charging stop about $40,000. Another thing hardly anyone talks about is highly compressed gases are dangerous that's a big reason we don't use propane or natural gas in cars. Hydrogen is not as bad but still very dangerous in enclosed spaces like a parking garage, or in your own garage.
To be clear I think hydrogen cars are idiotic based on the energy in/return factor until we find a way to build a pipeline from Jupiter they make no sense. One other thing I'd like to make crystal clear I am not an "EV fan" just for the sake of it I am a fan of the most efficient well to wheel process and currently a BEV is by far the best at it. If the FCV was better in this respect I'd tout it instead.

Here's what's currently happening, VW, Ford, GM, Tesla and others are all talking about or bringing out BEVs. Toyota is talking about "electrified" vehicles which is code for we don't have any BEVs so pretend our hybrids are in the same class.

EZZ

Video on HFC efficiency.