Some Hondas are even worse LOL.



Back to the original topic, how do you feel about today's Lexus products? I feel that, in overall build-quality, they started going downhill in the mid-2000s, and, of course, the spindle-grilles and firmer suspensions/tires haven't helped any. But some of the interiors today, at least on the surface, are actually better-looking than back in the period when they had what IMO was their best quality.

 

When I talk about Toyota being conservative, I mean that it is very quiet and does not trumpet its own accomplishments nor its future plans very well, especially in comparison with the German brands, that are quite in-your-face when it comes to trumpeting their future plans.

 

I'd guess that is because they sell so many vehicles that they want to keep everything hush-hush as much a possible....don't need to advertise in advance.

 

The German brands may be ahead in the number of different plug-in hybrid models they offer but the technology is not very innovative. It is very easy to add battery capacity and an electrical outlet to an already-existing hybrid system, but what you are left with is neither fish nor fowl and with drawbacks of both.

The German brands' hybrid systems, with only 1 electric motor, as opposed to Toyota's, Ford's and Honda's hybrid systems that have 2 motors, can only drive in EV mode or charge the battery, not both. What that leaves you is a car that drags along a heavy, unused internal combustion engine while running in EV mode, and that drags along a large, heavy, unused battery while the ICE is running.

This may be good for marketing purposes but it is not very innovative (from an engineering perspective), efficient nor effective.

 

Whatever the cause, it is what Carmaker1 and I are talking about regarding Toyota needing to up their marketing.

 

 

i disagree with this. the v10 in the LFA was spectacular. the v8 used for years in LS and GS models was spectacularly smooth and refined. way better than anything else.

and while the camry may be 'boring' in many ways, even the new 4 cylinder in that is state of the art.

what makes you think toyota wants to cut down on their body styles?

makes sense and hardly unique to toyota, nissan, ford, gm, honda, mazda, vw, etc. all use many of the same engines over and over in different models.

'the germans' as you refer to them, play a lot to a home (european) audience, which also involves politics. toyota plays to their home market but also hugely to north america and in europe has been largely just 'different'. but to say toyota is master at nothing is frankly crazy. to have vehicles like camry, corolla, rav4, highlander, 4runner and many other models that sell in vast numbers says they're master at a great many things. they created the hybrid business. they created the midsize luxury utility market with the rx. they rewrote the luxury sedan with the ls. yes, some of these accomplishments were a long time ago, but some weren't. now it's no secret on here that i'm a) not thrilled with a lot of toyota/lexus styling these days, and b) not thrilled with limited distribution, option availability and packaging of lexus vehicles, and c) think toyota has made a HUGE mistake letting their lexus line-up get really old and stale, but that doesn't mean i don't have respect for them being MASTERS OF QUALITY MANUFACTURING, and choosing to go their own way even if i don't always agree with it.

 

By being conservative, I was referring to TMC's continuing atmospheric & NiMH hybrid line up, when F1 Racing and the Europeans have shifted to small capacity turbos & PHEV's - as Jill was talking about.

I am referring to TMC's very possible axing of the 4GS for reasons of poor ROI.
It is great to have lots of body style options, but it does hurt the corporate hip pocket, esp if the market doesn't like their new direction resulting in poor sales, hence poor ROI, with the ultimate axing of certain models.

Back in the 80's, just sedans and a few coupes to produce.
Now, it's sedans, a whole lineup of tall SUV wagons, and a few coupes to produce.
Easy to justify production when it sells, but difficult to justify production if sales stagnate.

Presently, TMC certainly has a broader band of different types of engines in production including: diesels, atmospheric, small capacity turbos, hybrids, PHEV's, HFCEV's, Lion power EV's and solid state EV's under development.
On the otherhand, the Europeans now focus mainly on: diesels, small capacity turbos, PHEV's, Lion powered EV's and solid state EV's under development.
In other words, the Europeans have cut down on the number of different types of engines by essentially axing: atmospheric, hybrids, and hydrogen fuel cell powered electric.

It is not good, especially financially to have too many variations in engine designs, especially if they are not selling in appreciable volume, because this increases corporate overhead costs.
The saying goes, when you try to be everything to everybody, you end up being a master of none.


On another note, like I said previously, these European alternative variations are actually arguably not that great.
For example, hybrids now cleverly sandwich the battery between the rear seat base and the fuel tank, for a full size trunk with rear seat backrest fold down possibility.
On the otherhand, the PHEV's have a very reduced trunk size, with a lot of weight over the rear overhang, and often have to use run flats or a tire repair kit because there is no room under the trunk for a spare tire.
Thus, the Europeans have been partly very clever in their marketing to promote small capacity turbos and PHEV's.
Somehow, the Europeans are able to literally dictate when dynamics is important, or when forced induction albeit with lag rules...
.

 

 

Since you keep talking about this two electric motors thing, could you explain why it is needed to driving and charging by electric at same time? LOL.

 

Hybrid gasoline-electric cars save fuel by having a second, parallel drivetrain assist the internal combustion engine. The electric motor draws electricity from the battery to provide extra power so that the internal combustion engine can be smaller and less powerful (and therefore burn less fuel). But to do this, the battery must have enough charge to run that electric motor (the battery should not be allowed to run down); if there is low or no charge, the electric motor will not be able to effectively add power to the engine when extra power is needed (under harder acceleration, for example).

The electric motor in the hybrid vehicle is versatile: When provided with electricity from the battery, the electric motor spins, providing power to turn the car's wheels or add power to the internal combustion engine; when provided with mechanical energy to spin the motor, it becomes a generator, topping up the battery. But it can only act as a motor or generator, never both at the same time. The battery is either being drained of electricity or being topped up.

If the hybrid vehicle only has one motor, it will draw electricity from the battery to provide driving power. With charge in the battery, the electric motor is available to provide additional power, helping the internal combustion engine.

Once the battery charge is low, however, the electric motor switches to generator mode so that the engine can turn it to recharge the battery. But if the motor-generator is acting as a generator, it cannot act as a motor to assist the internal combustion engine. Under generation mode, the engine must recharge the battery AND provide all power to drive the car, even under hard acceleration; a small, less powerful engine will not be enough under these circumstances.

If, however, the hybrid system has two electric motors, one can provide driving power while the second motor is acting as generator to top up the battery. One electric motor can draw electricity from the battery, even as the other one is topping up the battery.

With two motor-generators, the risk of the battery charge running low is much less, and there will be charge available to turn the motor to provide power to assist that small, less powerful engine. That saves fuel.

 

^^ great explanation Sulu

 

That is a nice explanation, however Toyota Prius Prime is a plug-in hybrid, all Lexus models should offer the same

 

while there might be some benefit to two electric motors, i'm not seeing it because a car is never going to be simultaneously using and generating electricity, only one, the other, or neither. when accelerating or even cruising, electricity might be used, but there's little upside at highway cruise for example because that's when the ICE is most efficient. when braking, there's no need to provide electric assist, and the regen can work then to recharge the battery. plus there's added weight, cost, and complexity to having 2 motors. ya get nothin' for nothin'

 

Regenerative braking provides very little recharging ability; most of it, in my experience, comes from the engine. Serial hybrid mode, where the engine (running at its most efficient constant rpm) keeps the battery topped up through one motor-generator while the other motor drives the vehicle, is the most efficient mode.

Remember that an internal combustion engine is at its most efficient at a constant rpm and not having to accelerate and decelerate. A vehicle in which the engine has to power the car through the full speed range, from full stop to high speed, is terribly inefficient. A single-motor hybrid system has to do that when the battery charge runs low and the one single motor is forced into generator mode. A second motor, dedicated to keeping the battery charge up, can take advantage of engine power that would otherwise be wasted to maintain a battery charge, ensuring that the main drive motor is always available to assist the engine.