It's not so much the maps that change, as the metadata around the maps. That often changes literally by the minute, and that's where the value is for me. Waze reroutes me around accidents, road closures, construction, and just heavy traffic. I've literally had my route change 3 or 4 times just on one trip home, because it found a faster way based on the current road conditions that specific minute. No factory system I've seen does anything even remotely like that.

Ours is an '11. A quick googling suggest this means it is one Nav generation behind current.

Now we're starting to get to the root of the issue. I don't give a **** what other people think about my Audi or my BMW. I bought the latter because I enjoy driving it and it meets my needs, and the former because it was the absolute best family-wagon we found to meet our needs. Neither the cars themselves, nor any particular options, bring me prestige. Other than my immediate family (and some fellow enthusiasts on this board), I didn't tell anybody that we bought a Q7 (Prestige trim level, ironically ). Not friends, not coworkers. A few asked about it after they noticed a different car parked in "my" spot, but that's about it. I answered their questions and went on with my life.

What you're describing here is one of the big problems with Americans, and that is--to blatantly steal from Walter Slezak--that many of us spend money we don't have, buying things we don't need, to impress people we don't like. Way too many people are way too caught up in what their car says about them. I want the car, infotainment, and navigation that meets my needs to the best degree possible. My status in life is not grounded in that choice.

Keeping a car for the long haul actually makes the situation worse. Do you honestly think the 2007 RX350 we traded in was significantly more luxurious or more valuable than it would have been without it? The system was pretty crappy when it was new, which only became more obvious with age. We got $4k for a car that we bought for $50k. How much additional resale value did the nav system bring us? $100-200?

That's the entire point--it won't be the same 10 years from now. It will be better. My 2018 MMI will be the same as it is today. Well, technically that's not true--in 2 years, it'll lose the Google Earth functionality.

 

Yeah. They have it now because they were updated since Enform 2.0 is allowed to have it. However - they don't have Android Auto.
How does having the ability to use Waze, Google Maps, AudioBook and Pandora on a Lexus LS/LC make the car more luxurious? It doesn't change the luxury factor one bit because its not an "exclusive" feature. The way I see it is - luxury is defined by the uniqueness to having it all. Meaning - having things that other cars don't have. Having the features first is luxury.
Apple Car Play and Android Auto is too generic to be considered "luxurious."

If Apple Car Play and Android Auto were to be considered a luxury feature - in my mind - they would have to do more than the Apple Car Play/Android in what "economy cars" are doing. There has to be a scale of Apple Car Play and Android Auto.

Lets take a look at BMW. All BMW cars and especially the BMW 7 Series - does not offer Apple Car Play as standard nor do they offer Android Auto. Now this begs the question - does this make 7 Series less luxurious and less of a car than the Audi A8 which offers Apple Car Play and Android Auto? No. In fact - the BMW 7 Series is actually better than the Audi A8 in many ways still.

Sure - its nice to have the option of Apple Car Play and Android Auto for you purchase if you need it. But is it considered a luxury feature? In my opinion, no, because a KIA could even have Apple Car Play/Android Auto.

So then we are talking about live-traffic system?
I'm not 100% sure about the system on Nissan vehicles as they are pretty outdated systems in general. But - the free live traffic updates on the Lexus, Audi and MB systems are pretty good. They were comparable to that of Google Maps - from experience.

You nailed it on the head. At the end of the day - you buy a car to fit your needs. Full stop. That's why I have always said its good to have Apple Car Play and Android Auto as an option during the purchase-phase of the vehicle, like what BMW is doing. I prefer Apple Car Play and Android Auto to be optional so people that want it - pay for it. While the people that don't - save money. Not everyone feels the needs for Apple Car Play/Android Auto.
Some people think they rather get an empty car + Apple Car Play and they'll be good.
Some people would rather have all the options and they'll be good.

I think you are misunderstanding what I meant by for the long haul.
You are talking about a car that is already 11 years old. Of course - an 11 year old car would not be as luxurious as the items we have today. What I'm trying to get at is: an 11 year old car with more options on it will stay up to date longer than a car without these options on it.
I have a friend that owns an 07 Acura TSX - he optioned in the navigation package. Firstly - obviously - his navigation isn't updated anymore and its 100% not as good as Google Maps. That's just a fact because its 11 years old now, like your RX is.
However - from 2007 to about roughly 2015 - his 07 Acura TSX stayed relatively up-to-date compared to TSX models that didn't have the navigation. That's what I'm trying to say. Your "older" car can possibly keep up with "newer" cars if you have the options. Luxury is about being to have it first.
Here's another good example: The 2019 Lexus ES.
You'll definitely have people that will skip the navigation package and just use Apple Car Play but then you'll be stuck with a non-luxurious smaller screen (same size screen as the Camry). As the car ages to maybe 3-4 years old, majority of cars will start to have bigger and bigger screens. You'll be stuck with an out-dated small screen and using Apple Car Play.
What I'm saying is - your car will likely feel newer and more premium longer if you got the navigation package that came with the bigger screen.

You are misunderstanding my point. I think a lot of people think Apple Car Play and Android Auto will interact the same or look the same in 10 years and Apple/Google. Car companies, in 10 years, can allow a better integration of Apple Car Play and Android Auto that can't be done by a iOS update. My point is - sooner or later - there will be Apple Car Play 1.0 and 2.0 where newer cars will have a different format of Apple Car Play that can be used within the infotainment system.

 

Meh, my Toyota and my Lexus have the same basic infotainment/navigation system. It doesn't really bother me that Lexus and Toyota use the same one. I guess that either means that my Toyota is a luxury vehicle or my Lexus isn't.

 

LOL That is a good one

 

You know well aware I wasn't talking specifically about that. There are going to be cross features within luxury and "economy cars".

I would consider the LFA Gauges a luxury item because its unique to Lexus.
I would consider vent seats a luxury feature because majority of cars that are luxurious tend to have it (only some non luxury cars have this.)
and etc....

But hey - its just my opinion. I guess, if Apple Car Play is such a luxurious feature, then I guess the new Lexus ES is 10x more luxurious than a BMW 7 Series without Apple Car Play.

 

Nobody is saying that it is 10X better. People just see Apple Car play something to have or desirable. I am just fascinated how you are so vehemently opposed to it. To me, Apple Car Play is no different than full time all wheel drive, a power rear hatch, auto up/down windows among other things.

 

I'm not "opposed" to Apple Car Play. I'm more fascinated by the idea how someone can believe Apple Car Play is a deal breaker within cars with good infotainment systems.
I'm fascinated by the idea how Apple Car Play can make a car like the BMW 7 Series more luxurious.
I'm fascinated by the idea how some people think Apple Car Play is better than iDrive, MBUX or Virtual Cockpit.

Like I said before - I think Apple Car Play is a good feature to provide to consumers as an optional extra if they feel like they need it.

The thing is - Apple Car Play can be subjected to being useless by having a good infotainment system.
You can't replace things like the traction AWD gives you.
You can't replace the convenience of auto/up down windows or power hatch.

 

Ok, but it doesn't seem like you are not opposed to it.

 

I'm opposed to the idea of someone thinking Apple Car Play is better than good infotainment systems.

I'll agree that Apple Car Play is better than crappy infotainment systems and I can see why some people want to use it over those systems. However - I can never understand why someone would ever want to use it over iDrive or MBUX. If you read bimmerpost or MBWorld, 90% of MB/BMW owners hate Apple Car Play or Android Auto.
Its not like they didn't give it a chance. They did.

What they say about it on the forums there, mirror what I said here before, the problem with Apple Car Play is that it takes full control of your screen. Its either iDrive or Apple Car Play. I think better integration is needed. I think Google Maps + split screen is needed. However - this won't ever happen until car companies allow better integration.

 

Why the aggression/contentious attitude?

I thought this entire thread was about infotainment/navigation systems? Several posts here, including ones by you, discuss the connection between specialized nav systems, Apple CarPlay, Android Auto, etc. and how they play into the definition of a luxury vehicle. I don't think my comment pointing out that Toyota (mainstream brand) and Lexus (luxury brand) use the same system is out of line.

So maybe I don't understand what you are talking about anymore.

Oh, and by the way, my Toyota has ventilated seats.

 

Virtual Cockpit is available in the second cheapest Audi model in existence - A3 "Premium Plus". Just select the "technology package". It's about $3k. Do you know what that pays for? It pays for the Bang & Olufsen system. The "virtual cockpit" is just a screen - it's not a $3,000 screen. It's a $3,000 sound system. Virtual Cockpit looks cool, but it doesn't do anything. It's just a map and the main MMI screen installed where the tach usually goes. It's not even "virtual". It's called marketing. It's also redundant bc (again) all that info is accessible via the screen on the dash.

I'm still lost to your point, because VC is literally a less-than $500 option when you consider how much of that option comprises the sound system upgrade. Hardly the pinnacle of "luxury". In other words, it costs somewhere between the ski-rack accessory and the illuminated door sills.

This is just patently false. There is no infotainment system in the world that can do what iOS can. Or Android. The sooner I have full functionality of my phone through the vehicles interface, the better. Any vehicle not offering CarPlay is already a dinosaur. I hope it's at least fast and looks cool.

 

 

I know I have seen videos of the refreshed Golf with it as well (I believe it was either a GTI or R).

I think VC is a lot more useful than the F Sport instrument clusters Lexus offers, but I wouldn't consider either to be "luxury". I think luxury nowadays is defined more by materials quality and prestige more than anything... AC and AA are starting to just become commonplace now and don't really set premium brands apart anymore.

 

What aggression? I didn't think anything I said was remotely aggressive. Apologizes if it did come off aggressive as that wasn't my intention.

I didn't say your post about Toyota/Lexus sharing infotainment was out of line. But I was trying to reference the fact that isn't what I was trying to get at in terms of luxury equipment. Part of the equation of making something luxurious is the uniqueness of the vehicle. While LFA Gauges aren't crazy or does anything important - it is cool and does have a "wow" factor. This makes it a luxury item that only Lexus has. This gives Lexus uniqueness/prestige.
My reference is that: Apple Car Play is way too generic at its current form to be considered a "luxury" item. How is it luxurious when almost everything offers it? Sure. Its good to have if you like using it but luxurious? Far from it.

Again - you keep bringing different cars. We started off with the A4, then you bring up the Q5 and now the A3.
Like I said before - Premium Plus is not the base model. You were clearing referencing the base-model trim, which is the Premium trim. Only Premium Plus model allow Virtual Cockpit as an option and Prestige as standard.

Cheapest Audi model is cheap relatively to an Audi - not cheap relative to the car market. The Audi A3 starts at 31K as a Golf re-skin - that's rather expensive for a vehicle that is loaded with plastic.

Secondly - I want to point out the package is 3.2K (Technology package) and you have to upgrade to the Premium Plus model to get this package (which is a another 3.3K). So in total, you would have to spend about 6.5K in order to get the Virtual Cockpit. Where did you get a "$500 cost" for the Virtual Cockpit? That sounds made-up. Regardless of what the Virtual Cockpit cost individually - the fact that you need to spend at least 6.5K in total just to have it screams at least some forum of luxury.

Thirdly - if you think Virtual Cockpit doesn't do anything, then you haven't used it at all. In my friend's S4 - I can turn off the small screen in the center and make my Audi Maps (with traffic) onto my gauges. I usually set my gauges smaller with the digital display showing for MPH. This way - I can check my speed and my maps at the same time. This is customization. This makes it luxurious. Not sure how you think using Apple Car Play on Audi's 7inch screen is better than Virtual Cockpit 12 inch screen.

The thing is - we aren't using iOS. Are we? The iPhone is mirrored into the screen of the infotainment system. Its the car's infotainment system that is mirroring specific parts of iOS. Besides - iDrive is 100x times better than Apple Car Play. Anything Apple Car Play can do - iDrive can destroy it with more ease and flexibility. My wish is Lexus develops something like BMW's iDrive.
The second is - your phone will NEVER get full integration onto car's system. That's saying the car will allow you to YouTube and surf the web.
The third thing is - your last comment about how a car is considered a dinosaur if it doesn't offer Apple Car Play/Android Auto is foolish.
If a F80 BMW M3/BMW M4 doesn't have Apple Car Play, its a dinosaur? So you are saying a Nissan Rogue with Apple Car Play will be more modern than that?
If a Lexus LC/LS doesn't have Android Auto, its a dinosaur? So you are saying a Nissan Rogue with Apple Car Play will be more modern than that?
If a any BMW product doesn't have Apple Car Play, a Honda Civic is more modern than that?
So a Lexus IS350 (2019) is less modern than a Honda Civic?

Please - don't get ahead of yourself. You like Apple Car Play and Apple - I get it. But lets not assume that a car is considered ancient for not offering a mirroring service application.

Jetta gets less custom and cheaper version of the Virtual Cockpit, yes.

VC and LFA gauges are considered "luxury" because its unique to the brand. Just like how HIDs were unique to luxury cars back in the 2000s. Its about exclusivity.

That's exactly what I have been saying. AC/AA are so common they aren't considered luxury items.

 

Yes, that's one of the primary advantages of Waze over everything.

I don't own a Lexus or MB, so can't speak from experience there. But Lexus gets traffic updates via the FM radio, which another poster has reported upthread is not great. MB uses XM NavTraffic, which I DO have direct experience with, and it doesn't work well. I obviously own an Audi, and can definitively say that their live traffic (provided by google via LTE) is still far less effective than the crowdsourced data in Waze. Again, same trip, same day, same time, 50% longer following MMI vs. Waze. That is not even remotely close to comparable.

I get that not everyone needs/wants these systems. But once there's a certain level of hardware in the car, they literally cost nothing to include on a per-vehicle basis (there is a small per-manufacturer cost to create the compatibility layer). All CP/AA require is a screen, some method of interacting with it, a USB port and a realtime OS--the same things that are required for a navigation system or a screen-based infotainment. There are no licensing fees or dedicated hardware required. There's literally no reason not to include it, unless the car is a stripped model that doesn't include the prerequisites.

BMW is even worse here, as they were already gouging people by charging $300 for a feature that cost them nothing and is included as standard equipment on the $13k Chevy Cruze. The move to a subscription is purely to wring more money out of this free feature over the life of any given vehicle.

Now we're well into the realm of fantasy. An 07 TSX is in no way comparable to the all-new second-generation model (introduced in '09) just because it has a crappy navigation system. Older cars only "keep up" with newer models if they're intrinsically superior in some way, which is fairly rare but does happen. For example, my E90 3-series is smaller and has fewer features than the F30 that replaced it, but it drives way better across the lineup, and my model in particular makes dramatically more power than its closest equivalent (there is no direct equivalent) in the F30 generation. Therefore, I'd rather drive the older model, and in fact bought mine after the disappointing F30 was released.

You do have a point here. But I'd argue that this is more about the progressive march of standard equipment. Meaning, a substantial chunk of the folks who choose the smaller screen and no navigation option, would have also chosen the no navigation option in prior years when that meant no screen at all.

True, technology marches onward. But CP/AA will always have a longer runway in any given car compared to the factory systems, because they're not frozen at the time of manufacture. My MMI will never have more features than it does today, and starting in 2020 will actually lose some (as will all 2018 and older Audis, and most if not all of the 2019s). And as you've repeatedly pointed out--CP/AA are a screen mirroring system. All the intelligence and advancement occurs on the software side on the phone. So the likelihood of being left behind of some major new feature is pretty low (but not zero).