peteharvey

IMO, both Jill and Mr Sulu are correct.

Although the new measuring standards does see a slight rise in Prius Prime PHEV emissions, because the Prime PHEV has already been fully charged from the wall outlet, the Prime PHEV still produces much less emissions than a regular Prius hybrid.

Mr Sulu maybe correct in that, if the PHEV's were banned from being charged from the wall outlet altogether, then the conventional Lexus [2.5L naturally aspirated] hybrids may be both more fuel efficient and produce less emissions than the C350e & 330e PHEV's.
However, just remember that the small capacity turbocharged with large battery pack and large electric motor C350e & 330e PHEV's are blasting the metric 0-100 kph in just 5.9 & 6.1 seconds respectively to the European IS300h's sluggish 8.5 seconds.

Thus, both hybrids and plug-in hybrids are good, but in different ways.
Horses for courses and each to their own.
That's why Toyota Motor Corporation seem to be producing a bit of just about every power train format including atmospheric, rather than specializing in small capacity turbos and PHEV's like the Germans...

spwolf

how is that not a win for Toyota?

They will sell over 1m vehicles in Europe this year, a definitive win for Toyota. Record market share of 5%.
Diesel sales are falling down at alarming rate in EU (>30% down YoY), and they have no real hybrids to compete with.

In any case, all of these plugin vehicles together had pretty small sales, they were PR drivers, nothing else. Unlike them, Toyota actually sells >500,000 hybrids per year in Europe.

On the other hand, check latest EU sales of plugins until August 2018... all these VW, BMW, Mercedes and Porsche plugins sell in tiny numbers compared to their overall EU sales. I mean VW group sold 408,000 vehicles in July 2018 in Europe, out of which 5000 were plugins? At the same time, Toyota sold 45000 hybrids in Europe, out of overall sales of 85k-90k?



So yeah, only thing that Germans are doing right now is PR's their plugin hybrids... they are certainly not selling them.

Sulu

But that efficiency does not come free. You are buying that greater efficiency by using -- and paying for -- that second external fuel source, electricity. Yet, the regulators, like the EPA, do not openly tell you how much you pay for that electricity.

Sulu

This is a double standard. The Germans are selling performance of their plug-in hybrids to attract buyers, yet trying to game and claim from the regulators that they are fuel-efficient cars.

But as I said earlier, they are buying that efficiency without telling us what the cost of buying that efficiency is. Externally-sourced plugged-in electricity is not free.

peteharvey

True.
Just as they have developed a proper method for testing PHEV emissions, they must also develop a proper method for testing PHEV fuel economy.
As it stands, while the European IS300h has a metric combined fuel efficiency of 4.9L/100 km, the C350e PHEV drinks just 2.4L/100 km, while the 330e PHEV drinks just 2.1L/100 km.
They must develop a way of testing the PHEV's starting from a depleted battery pack, and not recharging via the power point at all.

spwolf

sure, there is testing on the EPA that does it... EU does not want to do it since Germany is lobbying against it, due to these plugins specifically being very poor on fuel efficiency (for cost, tech reasons)