VW, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche stop plug-in hybrid sales on new WLTP emissions rules
09-27-18, 07:48 PM
#1
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
VW, BMW, Mercedes, Porsche stop plug-in hybrid sales on new WLTP emissions rules
So, are the German automakers stopping the sales of their plug-in hybrids because they would not sell without large subsidies (that will now be gone); or are they tacitly admitting that their plug-in hybrid models were designed to take advantage of loopholes in the old NEDC (the New European Driving Cycle was so full of holes that you could drive a large Volkswagen or Mercedes-Benz Diesel through it)?
It looks like the solution is to fit a larger, higher-capacity battery to the plug-in hybrid models. But it seems that may come with drawbacks: The larger batteries will cost more, perhaps negating the effect of subsidies on prices; and larger batteries will take up more space (cargo and/or passenger space) and add not insignificant weight to these vehicles. If large batteries take up so much space and weight, why not get rid of the internal combustion engine and build EVs instead?
Source: Automotive News Europe
It looks like the solution is to fit a larger, higher-capacity battery to the plug-in hybrid models. But it seems that may come with drawbacks: The larger batteries will cost more, perhaps negating the effect of subsidies on prices; and larger batteries will take up more space (cargo and/or passenger space) and add not insignificant weight to these vehicles. If large batteries take up so much space and weight, why not get rid of the internal combustion engine and build EVs instead?
Volkswagen, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and Porsche are among the automakers that have halted sales of some of their plug-in hybrid cars in Europe in the wake of new emissions regulations.
The regulations, known as the Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP), went into effect in the European Union this month. Under WLTP, plug-in hybrids are tested differently than under the previous regulations, known as the New European Driving Cycle or NEDC.
As a result, the effect of the fully charged battery has been reduced. That, in turn, has pushed the crucial CO2 emissions figure above 50 grams per kilometer. The cars lose tax benefits offered in many countries to ultralow-emissions vehicles.
In Germany, many plug-in hybrid models have fallen out of the category where they qualified for the 3,000-euro (about $3,500) subsidy, said Matthias Schmidt, an analyst for Sweden's AID automotive research company. In most cases, automakers will need to fit a bigger battery into the vehicle to keep the tax benefits, Schmidt said.
Automakers have to decide whether the extra cost to fit a bigger battery is worth the incentives given.
VW has stopped sales of the midsize Passat GTE, Europe's No. 2-selling plug-in hybrid. A VW spokesman said the model will not be sold again until next July, when an update for the Passat range is due.
VW also has stopped selling the compact Golf GTE, Europe's No. 4-selling plug-in hybrid. The company did not give a date for its return.
The VW spokesman said its plug-in hybrid models were at the back of the line for WLTP testing behind more popular conventional gasoline and diesel models. "There is a bottleneck with the testing," he said. "We have to get priority for highest-volume models."
Porsche has pulled sales of its plug-in hybrid Panamera sedan and Cayenne SUV. "We will not start taking orders again until the cars are being built, the timing of which has not yet been confirmed," a spokesman said.
Plug-in hybrid versions accounted for 69 percent of Panamera sales in western Europe in the first half, AID figures show.
Mercedes currently has no plug-in hybrids available to order but will start selling them again within the next two months, starting with the S-class and E-class models. The C class is not due until next year, a spokesman said. All will record under 50g/km of CO2, he said.
Mitsubishi meets rules
Mitsubishi Europe, meanwhile, has overhauled its Outlander plug-in SUV, Europe's best-selling plug-in hybrid. The SUV has CO2 emissions of 46 g/km under WLTP, Mitsubishi said.
"As a result, it will still be eligible for numerous incentives and entry to low-emissions zones throughout the world, including Europe," Mitsubishi said in a statement.
The new Outlander plug-in switched to a 2.4-liter gasoline engine from a 2.0-liter engine and increased the size of the battery to 13.8 kWh from 12kWh.
Volvo, maker of the third-best-selling plug-in hybrid vehicle with the XC60 crossover, sells its plug-in hybrids with WLTP certification — but its vehicles are rated above 50g/km of CO2.
BMW is working to switch its plug-in hybrids over to WLTP. The company says the 530e sedan is available to order with emissions below 50g/km. The BMW 225xe Active Tourer minivan also can be ordered but with a CO2 figure of 57g/km, which is above the critical threshold.
BMW has said its new X5 large SUV will include the xDrive 45e plug-in hybrid with a beefed-up battery to increase its electric-only range to 80 km (50 miles) from 31 km (19.2 miles) and record a CO2 figure of 49g/km. It will arrive in 2019.
Tough tests
Plug-in hybrids must complete the WLTP test several times, Germany's VDA said. "Roll-out of the WLTP signifies a major change for plug-in hybrid vehicles," it said on its website. The vehicles are tested with a full battery, then the test is repeated until the battery is empty, when they are tested again.
"The CO2 value is then calculated as the ratio of the electrical range to the total range," the VDA said.
The regulations, known as the Worldwide harmonized Light vehicles Test Procedure (WLTP), went into effect in the European Union this month. Under WLTP, plug-in hybrids are tested differently than under the previous regulations, known as the New European Driving Cycle or NEDC.
As a result, the effect of the fully charged battery has been reduced. That, in turn, has pushed the crucial CO2 emissions figure above 50 grams per kilometer. The cars lose tax benefits offered in many countries to ultralow-emissions vehicles.
In Germany, many plug-in hybrid models have fallen out of the category where they qualified for the 3,000-euro (about $3,500) subsidy, said Matthias Schmidt, an analyst for Sweden's AID automotive research company. In most cases, automakers will need to fit a bigger battery into the vehicle to keep the tax benefits, Schmidt said.
Automakers have to decide whether the extra cost to fit a bigger battery is worth the incentives given.
VW has stopped sales of the midsize Passat GTE, Europe's No. 2-selling plug-in hybrid. A VW spokesman said the model will not be sold again until next July, when an update for the Passat range is due.
VW also has stopped selling the compact Golf GTE, Europe's No. 4-selling plug-in hybrid. The company did not give a date for its return.
The VW spokesman said its plug-in hybrid models were at the back of the line for WLTP testing behind more popular conventional gasoline and diesel models. "There is a bottleneck with the testing," he said. "We have to get priority for highest-volume models."
Porsche has pulled sales of its plug-in hybrid Panamera sedan and Cayenne SUV. "We will not start taking orders again until the cars are being built, the timing of which has not yet been confirmed," a spokesman said.
Plug-in hybrid versions accounted for 69 percent of Panamera sales in western Europe in the first half, AID figures show.
Mercedes currently has no plug-in hybrids available to order but will start selling them again within the next two months, starting with the S-class and E-class models. The C class is not due until next year, a spokesman said. All will record under 50g/km of CO2, he said.
Mitsubishi meets rules
Mitsubishi Europe, meanwhile, has overhauled its Outlander plug-in SUV, Europe's best-selling plug-in hybrid. The SUV has CO2 emissions of 46 g/km under WLTP, Mitsubishi said.
"As a result, it will still be eligible for numerous incentives and entry to low-emissions zones throughout the world, including Europe," Mitsubishi said in a statement.
The new Outlander plug-in switched to a 2.4-liter gasoline engine from a 2.0-liter engine and increased the size of the battery to 13.8 kWh from 12kWh.
Volvo, maker of the third-best-selling plug-in hybrid vehicle with the XC60 crossover, sells its plug-in hybrids with WLTP certification — but its vehicles are rated above 50g/km of CO2.
BMW is working to switch its plug-in hybrids over to WLTP. The company says the 530e sedan is available to order with emissions below 50g/km. The BMW 225xe Active Tourer minivan also can be ordered but with a CO2 figure of 57g/km, which is above the critical threshold.
BMW has said its new X5 large SUV will include the xDrive 45e plug-in hybrid with a beefed-up battery to increase its electric-only range to 80 km (50 miles) from 31 km (19.2 miles) and record a CO2 figure of 49g/km. It will arrive in 2019.
Tough tests
Plug-in hybrids must complete the WLTP test several times, Germany's VDA said. "Roll-out of the WLTP signifies a major change for plug-in hybrid vehicles," it said on its website. The vehicles are tested with a full battery, then the test is repeated until the battery is empty, when they are tested again.
"The CO2 value is then calculated as the ratio of the electrical range to the total range," the VDA said.
09-28-18, 01:57 PM
#3
Advanced
It's not only a small win. It's a real confirmation that Toyota got the right way and the honesty of builder is actually paying.
Yes, in Europe, the impression lots of us had about plug-in Hybrids, was that they where a comfortable mesure to mask the true fuel consumption.
Yes, in Europe, the impression lots of us had about plug-in Hybrids, was that they where a comfortable mesure to mask the true fuel consumption.
09-28-18, 07:54 PM
#4
Almost bought an A3 e-tron, but ended up with the trusty ct200h last minute. Wow did I make the right decision. Like literally in Miami the Lexus and Audi dealer are literally 20 feet next to each other & I kept walking to both lmao. But I just thought the plug in hybrid was not gonna last from them, but Toyota hybrid line will .
09-29-18, 01:48 PM
#5
http://europe.autonews.com/article/2.../ANE/180929899
Previously, old emission testing methods unfairly and favorably measured the CO2 emissions per kilometer for plug-in hybrids, by not taking into account the fact that the plug-in hybrids were already initially charged from the wall outlet.
Under new emission testing standards, the initially pre-charged plug-in from the wall outlet is repeatedly run until the battery is flat and then retested several times, and the CO2 emission is calculated as the ratio of the CO2 produced by the electrical range to the CO2 produced by the total range.
However, Matthias Schimdt the analyst for Sweeden's AID automotive research company, has only proposed one solution - the use of "larger" batteries so that the plug-in vehicles can produce less than 50 grams of CO2/kilometer to maintain their tax subsidies.
The other solution not mentioned by Matthias Schimdt under new fairer testing methods to keep the CO2 emissions below 50 grams/kilometer is to directly reduce the fuel consumption, but this will obviously reduce the power output and performance too.
This is why the European Lexus IS300h has the following stats relative to the BMW 330e & Benz C350e:
IS300h: 1720 kg, useful 450 L trunk, sluggish 0-100 kph 8.5 secs.
330e: 1660 kg, disgusting 370 L trunk, but a rocketship 0-100 kph in just 6.1 secs.
C350e: 1780 kg, deplorable 335 L trunk, but an even quicker 0-100 kph in just 5.9 seconds.
The stats indicate the other, and much more obvious solution to meeting the newer and more correct emissions testing procedures - simply by lowering fuel consumption, at the expense of rocketship performance relative to an IS300h hybrid.
Hybrid HEV vs Plug-in Hybrid PHEV?
Like I've said before, horses for courses, and each to their own.
Each design has its pros and cons, and presently, there is simply no perfect engine format.
Semantically, the only difference between a hybrid HEV and a plug-in hybrid PHEV - is the latter's power socket to take advantage of electricity from the wall outlet which is 1/4 the cost of gasoline.
Aside from that, hybrids and plug-ins are the same.
In practice, it is common for plug-ins to use much bigger battery packs and much bigger electric motors for both longer range and more explosive acceleration.
Thus, ignoring the power point wall outlet for a moment, comparing two hybrids with different battery pack and electric motor sizes - is something else.
When we compare a GS450h Mk 1 with bigger battery pack and bigger electric motors to GS450h Mk II, how are they different?
The 1st gen GS450h is heavier, with a tiny trunk, yet more explosive acceleration.
The 2nd gen GS450h is slightly lighter, with a much bigger trunk, and slightly slower performance - thanks to improvements over a 7 year model cycle.
Apart from the availability & advantages of a power charging socket in a plug-in PHEV, the most important aspect in the distinction between HEV vs PHEV, or even HEV vs another HEV, or PHEV vs another PHEV - is the varying ratios of ICEV:EV mix.
The higher the EV contribution: the smaller the trunk, the heavier the vehicle with reduced agility, the more explosive the acceleration, the longer the EV range, the lower the CO2 grams per kilometer, and the more the battery pack will be discharged for more "cylcing", such that the expensive battery packs will have to replaced sooner.
Save on gasoline, but pay for battery packs - this is simply what EV motoring is all about!
Hybrids & plug-in hybrids are an intermediate transition from ICEV to EV.
Higher EV contribution ratios simply means an even greater transition to electrification.
The transition to electrification comes with both pros and cons.
I used to love PHEV's, and I always thought that there should be an ES300p and GS450p.
However, after a while, I realized the pros and cons of each design.
Hybrid HEV's are not perfect either, although the recent idea to sandwich the battery pack between the rear seat base and the fuel tank certainly gives hybrids a practicality advantage with a spare tire stored under the trunk, such that run flats and anxious spare tire repair kits don't have to be used.
Horses for courses, and each to their own.
Presently, there is simply no perfect type of driveline...
.
Previously, old emission testing methods unfairly and favorably measured the CO2 emissions per kilometer for plug-in hybrids, by not taking into account the fact that the plug-in hybrids were already initially charged from the wall outlet.
Under new emission testing standards, the initially pre-charged plug-in from the wall outlet is repeatedly run until the battery is flat and then retested several times, and the CO2 emission is calculated as the ratio of the CO2 produced by the electrical range to the CO2 produced by the total range.
However, Matthias Schimdt the analyst for Sweeden's AID automotive research company, has only proposed one solution - the use of "larger" batteries so that the plug-in vehicles can produce less than 50 grams of CO2/kilometer to maintain their tax subsidies.
The other solution not mentioned by Matthias Schimdt under new fairer testing methods to keep the CO2 emissions below 50 grams/kilometer is to directly reduce the fuel consumption, but this will obviously reduce the power output and performance too.
This is why the European Lexus IS300h has the following stats relative to the BMW 330e & Benz C350e:
IS300h: 1720 kg, useful 450 L trunk, sluggish 0-100 kph 8.5 secs.
330e: 1660 kg, disgusting 370 L trunk, but a rocketship 0-100 kph in just 6.1 secs.
C350e: 1780 kg, deplorable 335 L trunk, but an even quicker 0-100 kph in just 5.9 seconds.
The stats indicate the other, and much more obvious solution to meeting the newer and more correct emissions testing procedures - simply by lowering fuel consumption, at the expense of rocketship performance relative to an IS300h hybrid.
Hybrid HEV vs Plug-in Hybrid PHEV?
Like I've said before, horses for courses, and each to their own.
Each design has its pros and cons, and presently, there is simply no perfect engine format.
Semantically, the only difference between a hybrid HEV and a plug-in hybrid PHEV - is the latter's power socket to take advantage of electricity from the wall outlet which is 1/4 the cost of gasoline.
Aside from that, hybrids and plug-ins are the same.
In practice, it is common for plug-ins to use much bigger battery packs and much bigger electric motors for both longer range and more explosive acceleration.
Thus, ignoring the power point wall outlet for a moment, comparing two hybrids with different battery pack and electric motor sizes - is something else.
When we compare a GS450h Mk 1 with bigger battery pack and bigger electric motors to GS450h Mk II, how are they different?
The 1st gen GS450h is heavier, with a tiny trunk, yet more explosive acceleration.
The 2nd gen GS450h is slightly lighter, with a much bigger trunk, and slightly slower performance - thanks to improvements over a 7 year model cycle.
Apart from the availability & advantages of a power charging socket in a plug-in PHEV, the most important aspect in the distinction between HEV vs PHEV, or even HEV vs another HEV, or PHEV vs another PHEV - is the varying ratios of ICEV:EV mix.
The higher the EV contribution: the smaller the trunk, the heavier the vehicle with reduced agility, the more explosive the acceleration, the longer the EV range, the lower the CO2 grams per kilometer, and the more the battery pack will be discharged for more "cylcing", such that the expensive battery packs will have to replaced sooner.
Save on gasoline, but pay for battery packs - this is simply what EV motoring is all about!
Hybrids & plug-in hybrids are an intermediate transition from ICEV to EV.
Higher EV contribution ratios simply means an even greater transition to electrification.
The transition to electrification comes with both pros and cons.
I used to love PHEV's, and I always thought that there should be an ES300p and GS450p.
However, after a while, I realized the pros and cons of each design.
Hybrid HEV's are not perfect either, although the recent idea to sandwich the battery pack between the rear seat base and the fuel tank certainly gives hybrids a practicality advantage with a spare tire stored under the trunk, such that run flats and anxious spare tire repair kits don't have to be used.
Horses for courses, and each to their own.
Presently, there is simply no perfect type of driveline...
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 09-29-18 at 09:18 PM.
09-30-18, 05:32 AM
#6
Lexus Fanatic
"Larger Prius+ models now have official CO2 emissions of 106g/km – 112g/km, depending on wheel size.
The plug-in hybrid version of the Prius is still the most efficient with CO2 emissions of 28g/km, increasing from 22g/km"
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/man...rius-and-prius
09-30-18, 11:07 AM
#7
The Toyota Prius Prime is still more efficient under the new procedure than the regular Prius. Many of the plug ins will be more efficient than non.
"Larger Prius+ models now have official CO2 emissions of 106g/km – 112g/km, depending on wheel size.
The plug-in hybrid version of the Prius is still the most efficient with CO2 emissions of 28g/km, increasing from 22g/km"
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/man...rius-and-prius
"Larger Prius+ models now have official CO2 emissions of 106g/km – 112g/km, depending on wheel size.
The plug-in hybrid version of the Prius is still the most efficient with CO2 emissions of 28g/km, increasing from 22g/km"
https://www.fleetnews.co.uk/news/man...rius-and-prius
Trending Topics
09-30-18, 12:49 PM
#10
Lexus Fanatic
09-30-18, 02:39 PM
#11
Mass production of solid state batteries is now more than a decade away.
https://insideevs.com/toyota-says-so...n-decade-away/
09-30-18, 02:50 PM
#12
Pole Position
This is not a win for Toyota this is about Germans getting exposed of taking the shortcuts in hybrid development and trying to make up for it in battery size. That's what it is. Look at Mitsubishi, this change didn't affect them at all since the Outlander was made from ground up to be proper hybrid vehicle and it still has the most real world EV range on the PHEV market.
09-30-18, 05:03 PM
#13
Lexus Champion
Thread Starter
This is not a win for Toyota this is about Germans getting exposed of taking the shortcuts in hybrid development and trying to make up for it in battery size. That's what it is. Look at Mitsubishi, this change didn't affect them at all since the Outlander was made from ground up to be proper hybrid vehicle and it still has the most real world EV range on the PHEV market.
Unlike true hybrid gasoline-electric vehicles, where there is only one external fuel source (gasoline), there are two external fuel sources for plug-in hybrids -- gasoline and electricity.
Where there is only one fuel source, the goal is to have both gasoline and electric drivetrains work together (gather gasoline-derived energy that would otherwise be wasted, to generate and store electricity as the secondary fuel) to reduce the single source fuel use, and it is obvious if the goal is met or not.
Where there are two external fuel sources, however, and one (electricity) is cheaper than the other (gasoline), it is very tempting -- and very easy -- to want to use the drivetrain fueled by the cheaper (and seldom measured) source to mask the fact that the other drivetrain may not be very efficient.
Instead of having both drivetrains work together for maximum efficiency, the method of these plug-in hybrids is to use both drivetrains separately -- drive on electricity alone until it is exhausted, then drive on gasoline -- but look at a combined fuel economy number, as though the drivetrains are combined.
09-30-18, 05:44 PM
#14
Lexus Fanatic
The Prius plug in is not penalized like other plug ins. The Prius plug in is far more efficient under the new standards that the regular hybrid.
09-30-18, 07:23 PM
#15
Lexus Fanatic
Instead of having both drivetrains work together for maximum efficiency, the method of these plug-in hybrids is to use both drivetrains separately -- drive on electricity alone until it is exhausted, then drive on gasoline -- but look at a combined fuel economy number, as though the drivetrains are combined.