GM closing Ontario, Detroit, and Ohio factories
12-07-18, 08:59 PM
#226
Lexus Fanatic
I think this is just PR posturing by Toyota to take advantage of the current situation of GM abandoning large cars. Surprised to read how bad car sales have fallen.
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/to...er-car-biased/
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/12/to...er-car-biased/
Let's see if they drop the Avalon or ES in the American market.....I'm not holding my breath. I agree that Toyota would be wise to keep them both, and they know it.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-07-18 at 09:06 PM.
12-07-18, 09:41 PM
#227
Lexus Fanatic
Toyota is not in the position GM is in. They don't have more capacity in the US than they have production, they're financially a much healthier company.
12-08-18, 11:48 AM
#228
Lexus Champion
I haven't checked sales numbers, but here's the thing--this is not necessarily a situation where everyone is affected equally. Just because there are fewer purchasers of full sized sedans, it doesn't mean that everyone is impacted the same way. Maybe Toyota was better prepared than GM; maybe some buyers have been migrating to Toyota from GM products over the years; and maybe, when the large Buick sedans are gone, Toyota and Lexus will pick up those customers that still want a large sedan.
12-08-18, 12:29 PM
#229
Lexus Fanatic
12-08-18, 12:32 PM
#230
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I haven't checked sales numbers, but here's the thing--this is not necessarily a situation where everyone is affected equally. Just because there are fewer purchasers of full sized sedans, it doesn't mean that everyone is impacted the same way. Maybe Toyota was better prepared than GM; maybe some buyers have been migrating to Toyota from GM products over the years; and maybe, when the large Buick sedans are gone, Toyota and Lexus will pick up those customers that still want a large sedan.
12-08-18, 01:35 PM
#231
Lexus Champion
Well, that's one reason why I checked out the new ES350, Cadenza, and Avalon lately......and will try out the latest Genesis G80 once it reaches area dealerships. But if a suitable replacement for the Lacrosse comes back on the market, with the same level of comfort, I'll probably be on it like a hot potato.
My dad was a reluctant buyer of Japanese cars in the early 80s. He flirted with an Accord, but hated that the Honda dealer wouldn't budge on price. He settled with a Subaru. He never even considered an American car again.
If you need to replace your Buick with a Japanese or Korean car, who knows how you will feel after that. The gap between them and American cars is not what it was in the 80s, but you never know....
12-08-18, 03:39 PM
#233
Lexus Fanatic
No buts about it. That's exactly how I feel.
Absolutely. 
1980s Toyota and Honda dealers were the absolute definition of arrogance. They had a good (though somewhat rust-prone) product, and they knew it...especially compared to the American, Italian, and French competition. And, because there were import-quotas on Japanese-sourced vehicles at the time, it artificially restricted their supply during a period of high demand, allowing those salespeople to act like jerks and essentially say "Our price....take it or leave it".
I myself had an Outback for six years. Unbelievable winter car, good overall comfort, space-efficient, and arguably one the best AWD systems ever designed for that type of driving. I never got stuck, even in a two-foot blizzard, or in ice (sleet) pellets five inches deep. But Subarus, though generally good, are not as reliable as the ads would lead you to believe (I speak not only from my own experience, but from a number of others as well) and, though it does not reflect on the vehicles themselves, I am not a fan of the company's politics.
True, but I've had an affinity for the Buick nameplate since I was a teen..I quit driving them, though, for decades, when the quality tanked. The 2012 Verano finally got me back behind the Tri-Shield, but, of course, benefitted from Opel-sourced quality that the American-sourced Buicks didn't have. My Lacrosse is more comfy and traditional Buick-like than the Verano was but, like Steve's Pacifica, has not been without issues.
Don't worry...some of you may have overdone my reaction to Lacrosses and Impalas being discontinued (perhaps I myself also did, to an extent). I won't end up at the shrink LOL
.....there are four or five potentially decent replacements, though a couple of them could (?) be on the chopping block, too 
....and, for the money (35-40K), it's really tough to find the Lacrosse's ride comfort short of getting a Mercedes S-class or Lexus LS.
My dad was a reluctant buyer of Japanese cars in the early 80s. He flirted with an Accord, but hated that the Honda dealer wouldn't budge on price.
1980s Toyota and Honda dealers were the absolute definition of arrogance. They had a good (though somewhat rust-prone) product, and they knew it...especially compared to the American, Italian, and French competition. And, because there were import-quotas on Japanese-sourced vehicles at the time, it artificially restricted their supply during a period of high demand, allowing those salespeople to act like jerks and essentially say "Our price....take it or leave it".
He settled with a Subaru. He never even considered an American car again
If you need to replace your Buick with a Japanese or Korean car, who knows how you will feel after that. The gap between them and American cars is not what it was in the 80s, but you never know....
Don't worry...some of you may have overdone my reaction to Lacrosses and Impalas being discontinued (perhaps I myself also did, to an extent). I won't end up at the shrink LOL
.....there are four or five potentially decent replacements, though a couple of them could (?) be on the chopping block, too ....and, for the money (35-40K), it's really tough to find the Lacrosse's ride comfort short of getting a Mercedes S-class or Lexus LS.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-08-18 at 03:44 PM.
12-08-18, 04:04 PM
#234
Lexus Champion
The fact that GM is closing plants and Toyota and other Japanese car manufacturers are not doing the same is partly rooted in history and the rise of the Japanese car industry. Japanese cars were not always so solid but they were wonderfully engineered with attention to detail that Detroit simply missed.
In the 70s, Toyota, Honda and even Nissan (Datsun) had already figured out what was wrong with American, German and British cars. So they took those designs and reworked them to make them better. This actually resulted in the US auto industry putting up tariff walls, (yes there's that word - it's not just a Trump administration thing). That led to these same car manufacturers moving to the US and building their cars in non-union, "right to work" states.
This is the baggage that GM is carrying among other things. The UAW is simply part of the Detroit industry and its history. It should not be the scapegoat for what's systemically wrong with management decisions which have proven disastrous. The Japanese are always careful and incremental in how they do things vs the swaggering marketing style of the Detroit car makers.
If you don't engineer the product you're selling to a customer's satisfaction, then that customer eventually may overcome his/her biases and look elsewhere for that sedan.
In the 70s, Toyota, Honda and even Nissan (Datsun) had already figured out what was wrong with American, German and British cars. So they took those designs and reworked them to make them better. This actually resulted in the US auto industry putting up tariff walls, (yes there's that word - it's not just a Trump administration thing). That led to these same car manufacturers moving to the US and building their cars in non-union, "right to work" states.
This is the baggage that GM is carrying among other things. The UAW is simply part of the Detroit industry and its history. It should not be the scapegoat for what's systemically wrong with management decisions which have proven disastrous. The Japanese are always careful and incremental in how they do things vs the swaggering marketing style of the Detroit car makers.
If you don't engineer the product you're selling to a customer's satisfaction, then that customer eventually may overcome his/her biases and look elsewhere for that sedan.
12-08-18, 04:24 PM
#235
Lexus Fanatic
This actually resulted in the US auto industry putting up tariff walls, (yes there's that word - it's not just a Trump administration thing). That led to these same car manufacturers moving to the US and building their cars in non-union, "right to work" states.
The quotas, however, were something else. They were a number regulation, and limited the actual number of vehicles imported, which had nothing to do with the tariffs or fees on the vehicles themselves.
12-08-18, 06:29 PM
#236
Lexus Champion
Originally Posted by mmarshall
To some extent, though, the Japanese never would have been able to do that if we, as a nation, had not helped them rebuild their industries, particularly the auto industry, after World War II. At one time, "Made in Japan" was considered a joke. However, they learned quickly, and the rest is history.
Yes, the "Made in Japan" label was not a good thing at one time. Especially electronics of all things. It was the US made electronics stuff that was considered quality with a sturdy quality to the products. History has taught us what happened next.
I think you're confusing tariffs with quotas. The tariffs (import fees) were only on the Japanese-sourced trucks. That's why Toyota would ship the cabs/ frames/drivetrains over on the ship from Japan in one piece, and have the beds welded on here, at the West Coast warehouse....legally, that got around the tariff. It also caused a lot of trouble with rust on the bed's mounting-points from poor-quality welds....all those 1980s Toyota trucks rusted out in exactly the same place.
The quotas, however, were something else. They were a number regulation, and limited the actual number of vehicles imported, which had nothing to do with the tariffs or fees on the vehicles themselves.
The quotas, however, were something else. They were a number regulation, and limited the actual number of vehicles imported, which had nothing to do with the tariffs or fees on the vehicles themselves.
The "quotas" were essentially "manufactured" by Detroit's Washington sock puppets. The Japanese car industry didn't suffer. It just passed on the costs to the consumer, who collectively was willing to pay. The Arab Oil Embargo of 1974 certainly did its part as gigantic gas guzzlers suddenly didn't look so good.
Tariffs today do the same thing. The consumer will pay.
12-08-18, 06:44 PM
#237
Lexus Fanatic
Technicalities aside and hair splitting about terminology aside, didn't this amount to the same thing?
The "quotas" were essentially "manufactured" by Detroit's Washington sock puppets. The Japanese car industry didn't suffer. It just passed on the costs to the consumer, who collectively was willing to pay. The Arab Oil Embargo of 1974 certainly did its part as gigantic gas guzzlers suddenly didn't look so good.
12-09-18, 04:17 AM
#238
Tesla would consider buying shuttered GM factories [again], says Elon Musk
I personally think this would be good for those workers losing jobs because of GM. They would have the ability to work for Tesla, I have no idea if they would get paid the same and what the Union and Tesla would agree to etc...
Source: https://electrek.co/2018/12/07/tesla...ies-elon-musk/
If GM goes through with its recently announced restructuring that would see several North America plants shut down, Tesla CEO Elon Musk says that they would consider buying some of those shuttered factories.
Last month, GM announced that they are closing 3 assembly factories in North America.
In an article, we suggested Tesla should buy one of those GM factories after they shut down since it went so well the last time they did it.
Now in a new interview, CEO Elon Musk said that they would consider it again:
Back in 2010, Tesla bought NUMMI, a car factory jointly owned by General Motors and Toyota in Fremont California, for just $42 million shortly after it was shut down.
The company gradually built the workforce back, including many former NUMMI workers, and now 8 years later, Tesla Fremont employs more employees than the original factory and it produces electric vehicles at a current rate of over 300,000 units per year.
The move to acquire the existing plant instead of building something from scratch is believed to be an important part of Tesla’s early success.
Last month, GM announced that they are closing 3 assembly factories in North America.
In an article, we suggested Tesla should buy one of those GM factories after they shut down since it went so well the last time they did it.
Now in a new interview, CEO Elon Musk said that they would consider it again:
“It’s possible that we would be interested if [GM] are going to sell a plant or not use it that we would take it over.”
The company gradually built the workforce back, including many former NUMMI workers, and now 8 years later, Tesla Fremont employs more employees than the original factory and it produces electric vehicles at a current rate of over 300,000 units per year.
The move to acquire the existing plant instead of building something from scratch is believed to be an important part of Tesla’s early success.
Source: https://electrek.co/2018/12/07/tesla...ies-elon-musk/
12-09-18, 06:34 AM
#239
Lexus Fanatic
Tesla is nonunion.
What I find funny is look at the picture at the top of the screen of presumably employee cars parked behind the plant's sign. I see a Range Rover, an Infiniti QX60 and a Toyota Corolla. Remember, these employees get HUGE discounts on GM vehicles, yet, they bought these...
What I find funny is look at the picture at the top of the screen of presumably employee cars parked behind the plant's sign. I see a Range Rover, an Infiniti QX60 and a Toyota Corolla. Remember, these employees get HUGE discounts on GM vehicles, yet, they bought these...
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-09-18 at 06:37 AM.
12-09-18, 07:50 AM
#240
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
no guarantee ANY of the gm workers would get hired at tesla, and tesla will vigorously oppose any uaw infiltration i'm sure.