GM closing Ontario, Detroit, and Ohio factories
01-08-19, 05:21 PM
#331
Lexus Fanatic
Disagree. Just wait. Trump is tied up wth the shutdown and wall-funding right now, but he is well-aware of what Mary Barra is doing to Ohio and Michigan. Just because something is on the back-burner doesn't mean no burner at all. And this latest announcement on the Canadian plant is going to bring Trudeau back into the picture, too.
01-08-19, 05:29 PM
#332
Lexus Champion
Honestly, I don’t think most people really care. Canada has lost two GM plants in the last 10 years, they lost the Camaro plant in Quebec and the plants St Thomas. I think they lost Windsor years ago. People don’t care like we do. Mexico wages are $2 per hour, that high cost of Unifor is the reason.
Toyota and Honda in Ontario are not unionized, and they are still not competitive with Mexican wages. Even if GM were to re-establish a plant in Ontario after some absence and without a union, it would still not be competitive with Mexico.
There are a number of factors that bring this about. The key one is the cost of living; it costs about $20 per hour to cover the actual costs of living in the Greater Toronto (Ontario) Region (of which Oshawa is on the eastern edge) and so $2 to $5 per hour, as they pay in Mexico, would not be nearly enough pay in Ontario.
Another important factor is the Ontario minimum wage, which is $14 per hour. No legal employer can pay their employees less than the minimum wage. The Ontario minimum wage is far higher than the Mexican minimum wage.
01-08-19, 05:40 PM
#333
Lexus Fanatic
Is that $14 in U.S. or Canadian dollars? At the current exchange rate, 14 U.S. dollars are worth about $18.50 in Canadian dollars. Conversely, 14 Canadian dollars are worth a little under $10.60 in the U.S.
Source: https://www.exchange-rates.org/converter/CAD/USD/14/Y
01-08-19, 05:42 PM
#334
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Perhaps so, but there is also a thing as going too far. And, when a sleeping bear awakes...............watch out.
And there is a reason why we should care. Even over and above the GM sedan production-issue (which, yes, is personal on my part), I care about people, and morally don't believe in exploiting labor. $2 an hour, IMO, is not an adequate wage, even in low-cost Mexico. I made more than that, right out of high school, almost a half century ago, working part-time, filling up gas tanks and doing minor service on vehicles...and I made twice that much (with health-insurance) on my first true full-time job. And I was not a goof-off....I earned it.
And there is a reason why we should care. Even over and above the GM sedan production-issue (which, yes, is personal on my part), I care about people, and morally don't believe in exploiting labor. $2 an hour, IMO, is not an adequate wage, even in low-cost Mexico. I made more than that, right out of high school, almost a half century ago, working part-time, filling up gas tanks and doing minor service on vehicles...and I made twice that much (with health-insurance) on my first true full-time job. And I was not a goof-off....I earned it.
The presence of the union is not what is keeping us uncompetitive with Mexico.
Toyota and Honda in Ontario are not unionized, and they are still not competitive with Mexican wages. Even if GM were to re-establish a plant in Ontario after some absence and without a union, it would still not be competitive with Mexico.
There are a number of factors that bring this about. The key one is the cost of living; it costs about $20 per hour to cover the actual costs of living in the Greater Toronto (Ontario) Region (of which Oshawa is on the eastern edge) and so $2 to $5 per hour, as they pay in Mexico, would not be nearly enough pay in Ontario.
Another important factor is the Ontario minimum wage, which is $14 per hour. No legal employer can pay their employees less than the minimum wage. The Ontario minimum wage is far higher than the Mexican minimum wage.
Toyota and Honda in Ontario are not unionized, and they are still not competitive with Mexican wages. Even if GM were to re-establish a plant in Ontario after some absence and without a union, it would still not be competitive with Mexico.
There are a number of factors that bring this about. The key one is the cost of living; it costs about $20 per hour to cover the actual costs of living in the Greater Toronto (Ontario) Region (of which Oshawa is on the eastern edge) and so $2 to $5 per hour, as they pay in Mexico, would not be nearly enough pay in Ontario.
Another important factor is the Ontario minimum wage, which is $14 per hour. No legal employer can pay their employees less than the minimum wage. The Ontario minimum wage is far higher than the Mexican minimum wage.
To note, the yearly salary of Mary Barra is greater than the entire payroll of the Mexico assembly plent. GM profits were $6 billion last year. It's all about greed.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 01-08-19 at 05:46 PM.
01-08-19, 05:51 PM
#335
Lexus Fanatic
Here is what the Canadian UNIFOR President, Jerry Dias, had to say.
(I tried to actually upload the video itself, but the system wouldn't allow it)
https://globalnews.ca/video/4828244/...eeting-with-gm
(I tried to actually upload the video itself, but the system wouldn't allow it)
https://globalnews.ca/video/4828244/...eeting-with-gm
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-08-19 at 05:54 PM.
01-08-19, 06:05 PM
#336
Lexus Champion
Disagree. Just wait. Trump is tied up wth the shutdown and wall-funding right now, but he is well-aware of what Mary Barra is doing to Ohio and Michigan. Just because something is on the back-burner doesn't mean no burner at all. And this latest announcement on the Canadian plant is going to bring Trudeau back into the picture, too.
01-08-19, 06:49 PM
#337
Lexus Champion
Is that $14 in U.S. or Canadian dollars? At the current exchange rate, 14 U.S. dollars are worth about $18.50 in Canadian dollars. Conversely, 14 Canadian dollars are worth a little under $10.60 in the U.S.
Source: https://www.exchange-rates.org/converter/CAD/USD/14/Y
Source: https://www.exchange-rates.org/converter/CAD/USD/14/Y
Sulu, I disagree with you. I was listening to the GM Canada President on CFRB today after Dias spoke. He mentioned loud and clear, that a retiring Unifor employee at this plant will collect a $3500-$3800 monthly pension, a $20,000 new car voucher. It is absolutely the reason. Then, the GM Oshawa plant at one time made 1.2 million cars while it is now down to 150K. Closure of this plant is absolutely the goal. You eliminate so many costs going forward. To retrofit the plant, cost of labour, cost of Ontario's electricity etc etc. Just open Blazer production in Mexico.
To note, the yearly salary of Mary Barra is greater than the entire payroll of the Mexico assembly plent. GM profits were $6 billion last year. It's all about greed.
To note, the yearly salary of Mary Barra is greater than the entire payroll of the Mexico assembly plent. GM profits were $6 billion last year. It's all about greed.
The only way that we will get our automakers to be competitive is by a legal trade agreement (such as the US, Mexico, Canada Agreement) or there is an absolutely tragic economic collapse and the bottom truly drops out of the Canadian dollar (in which case we would be no better off than Venezuela).
So there is no way to go back to paying employees only $2 per hour in Ontario.
01-08-19, 07:36 PM
#338
Lexus Fanatic
I'd hope not. A wage at that level, IMO, is an insult to one's labor, even in Mexico. I'm all for capitalism and free-markets, but there is also such a thing as greed. True capitalism is a system of investments, expenses/profits, returns, and using those investments to work for the public good....not paying your top executives three and four hundred times (or even a thousand times) what the typical man or woman on the assembly line makes. Making money in extremes, to the point where you are not compensating employees for their hard work, in my book, is not capitalism, but simple greed.
01-08-19, 08:17 PM
#339
Lexus Champion
I'd hope not. A wage at that level, IMO, is an insult to one's labor, even in Mexico. I'm all for capitalism and free-markets, but there is also such a thing as greed. True capitalism is a system of investments, expenses/profits, returns, and using those investments to work for the public good....not paying your top executives three and four hundred times (or even a thousand times) what the typical man or woman on the assembly line makes. Making money in extremes, to the point where you are not compensating employees for their hard work, in my book, is not capitalism, but simple greed.
01-08-19, 08:24 PM
#340
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I'd hope not. A wage at that level, IMO, is an insult to one's labor, even in Mexico. I'm all for capitalism and free-markets, but there is also such a thing as greed. True capitalism is a system of investments, expenses/profits, returns, and using those investments to work for the public good....not paying your top executives three and four hundred times (or even a thousand times) what the typical man or woman on the assembly line makes. Making money in extremes, to the point where you are not compensating employees for their hard work, in my book, is not capitalism, but simple greed.
01-09-19, 07:25 AM
#344
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I don’t think I suggested GM to pay Oshawa workers $2. The high cost of Unifor workers is the reason why GM put the blazer in Mexico and not in Oshawa. Because of NAFTA, the opportunity to exists to make more money by paying Mexico workers $2 vs what GM would have to pay workers in Oshawa, why would you want Oshawa if you are GM?. That and the fact that Oshawa is running just one shift and is nowhere near even 15% capacity.
GM could very easily put the Blazer and in fast ANY product at Oshawa, they are on record for saying they could do this but they don’t want to.
What the media is not reporting is that GM is hiring high paying engineering jobs for Oshawa innovation center.
You brought up Toyota and how they can succeed, yes, they pay well at Cambridge however they are also at peak capacity, they can close up shop in they want as there is no union to deal with.
And Toyota or Honda could very easily move Rav4 and RX to Mexico if they want and pay $2 per hour. The political negativity would be bad for Toyota or Honda. But not for GM.
GM could very easily put the Blazer and in fast ANY product at Oshawa, they are on record for saying they could do this but they don’t want to.
What the media is not reporting is that GM is hiring high paying engineering jobs for Oshawa innovation center.
You brought up Toyota and how they can succeed, yes, they pay well at Cambridge however they are also at peak capacity, they can close up shop in they want as there is no union to deal with.
And Toyota or Honda could very easily move Rav4 and RX to Mexico if they want and pay $2 per hour. The political negativity would be bad for Toyota or Honda. But not for GM.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 01-09-19 at 07:33 AM.
01-09-19, 07:52 AM
#345
Lexus Fanatic
One question is, potentially, how well would the Blazer actually sell against its own Equinox and Traverse brothers?.....we've already had a CL thread on that. Too many cooks can sometimes spoil the broth.