Bob04

It just amazes me how GM can make a car as good as the Corvette, yet still crank out crappy sedans.

LexBob2

Nice riding sedans, Copernicus, Galeleo? Could it be this thread is mercifully nearing it's end?

mmarshall

Many lower volume vehicles, from many different manufacturers, have stayed in production without those companies going bankrupt. And, other companies, today (except for Ford) are not panicking at the downturn in sedan sales. Good Heavens, for a superb example, look at the Kia K900. Now THERE's a slow selling sedan if there ever was one. I see probably fewer of those on the road than I do even the Lincoln Continental....which itself has been a complete sales-flop. But do you see Kia panicking and yanking it from the American market? Heck, no.....not on your life. It's still there for those relatively few customers who are interested in it. In fact, I took a look at one last week (its interior and craftsmanship will knock your socks off) when I checked out the latest Cadenza.....another relatively slow-selling sedan that is still going to remain in production for those who are interested. The difference between Kia and GM is that Kia thinks in terms of customers and their satisfaction, not simply in numbers. Might cost a little more to keep those plants open, but you don't see Kia or Hyundai going out of business, do you?

mmarshall

Hey, if the mods want to close it, that's on them (and, per CL rules, I'll respect their decision). As long as it's open, You can have your say, and I'll have mine.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

engineering-wise, the corvette is incredible. but when i drove a c7 a couple of years ago, the interior felt like a cheap econobox even with some flashy options like HUD.
when i drove a buick enclave avenir (top trim), the steering wheel felt like it came out of a crackerjack box.

i've tried to like several gm models over the years but couldn't pull the trigger because of how cheap i felt they were, even cadillacs. but they're cheap because of the catch-22 gm is in... if it's not cheap they won't make enough margin to stay afloat. if they make it nicer, the car prices have to rise and margins suffer, and they can't cover their vast debt and pension obligations, and go bankrupt, again.

plex

iTrader: (11)

I would say it's low volume compared to the sedans and catered to a specific crowd so the attention to detail may be better.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

so i think your point is that you feel like galileo and copernicus who got in trouble even though they were RIGHT, because the powers that be / masses went against them?

mmarshall

The 'Vette, though with much better interiors today than in the past, has never been about a plush interior, but about HP, torque, a big V8 rumbling exhaust, 0-60 / quarter-mile times, braking, and the (often) ability to keep up with Euro-sports cars at twice the price. Not the car for me, but I can understand its staying power, and why so many people are attracted to it even if they don't actually take one home.

This might surprise you, but, yes, agreed. Same wheel in the Lacrosse.....it is one of the weakness in those two vehicles. Another thing on the wheel that is cheap is the Buick-emblem in a cheap outline instead of the nice tri-color like on the front and rear ends....Jill and I have both mentioned that.

You won't find that cheapness on the Opel-derived Buicks, as I have stated many times. And, yes, the Lacrosse and Enclave could use some more durable materials inside, but, IMO, they more than make up for it in comfort. And I like the way the Lacrosse does its wood trim, even if it is not real wood.....still looks nice, IMO. Most cars in that price range, IMO, simply do not use enough wood-tone on the dash...the Lacrosse does.

mmarshall

At this point, it doesn't really matter what either of us think (though we can certainly have our say in the forum). I've been right before, and I've been wrong before. We'll see what history brings this time. In the meantime, most of it is out of both of our hands. Mary Barra will fight this out with the politicians.....and we'll see who comes out ahead. But, if she wins, I don't, at this time, foresee me being a GM customer any more, but that could change if they introduce (or re-introduce) something in the future I'm interested in. Despite my talk about Buick (and fond memories) I am first and foremost a car enthusiast, and don't believe the world revolves around any one brand. Heck, there was once a time when I didn't think I'd ever be driving a Subaru....but that changed when I got tired of dealing with winter LOL.

Gojirra99

mmarshall

"Marshall's" War? Come on, Andrew. I myself did not make the decision to close down any plants.

And, like with bit, you two are mods. No offense, but, If you think the thread is nonsense, shut it down. I respect the decisions of moderators, even if I disagree with them.

SW17LS

You just don't have a very deep understanding of the way the auto industry, or any manufacturing to retail type industry works in a global economy. Your comparison to the K900 magnifies that. The K900 is an extremely popular vehicle in Korea, and in China. It costs them nothing to sell it here. The issue with these sedans is that they are built here, where it is very expensive to build them. it doesn't make sense to manufacture them here and then transport and sell them where they are more popular, such as China, Korea, etc...it makes sense to build them there where labor is much cheaper and transport cost is much cheaper. Tariffs exacerbate that issue, because Chinese put tariffs on incoming American goods and we put tariffs on incoming Chinese goods, so it doesn't make sense for them to sell Chinese built versions of those products here, and they cant export US built versions of the model to where they are popular.

To be clear, what happened here....GM did not set out to cancel these specific models...they set out to close the plant...and since the plant makes models that are on a downswing and aren't doing well or projected to do well, they simply are not going to reallocate production of those vehicles to other plants. The models are collateral losses from the closure of the plant.

If there were to be established tariffs that increased the cost of importing the K900, Kia would simply stop selling it here.

And again, at the end of the day if it becomes advantageous for GM to leave the United States entirely and relocate its headquarters in another country...they will do so. Think about that before you want Trump to "punish" them.

MattyG

Very intersting retrospective on the Lacrosse. It sold over 60,000 just eight years ago and then 20K last year... down to about 13K so far this year. Carbuzz actually liked it and even the guys over at CD thought it was a nice sedan for its niche.

https://carbuzz.com/features/disappe...buick-lacrosse

If the Trump tariff fight with China continues, then there is no hope of ever getting a Chinese built Lacrosse on these shores, for large sedan fans. So mmarshall, you may have to hang on to yours or get one of the last ones and hermatically seal it up until its ready for use

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

barra will have no fight. notice it's not even really in the news now and i know of no politicians are talking about it. so i'd say it's a 'war' that never started.

the world doesn't resolve around one customer either.

tex2670

Yet again, you twist this to your own biased slant; no cart/no horse.

Prior Fact: Hyudais and Kias used to be of poor quality.
New Fact: Hyundais and Kias are now much better, and compete very well with other competitors.
>>This we can agree on, and if someone bashes the quality of these cars, they are not looking at current facts.

Similarly:
Prior Fact: Americans loved large sedans (yes, the gas crisis impacted this, but, as you said, when the gas prices came down, demand for large sedans returned).
New Fact: Americans are migrating in droves from large sedans to SUVs. The sales numbers don't lie. Ford and GM have analyzed this and adjusted their business model to account for it.
>>No one says you have to like this. But just because you like large American sedans doesn't mean that Ford and GM have misread the market. Every single time any person has put out a rational argument in this thread in this regard, you have just dismissed it and denied it, either with your own opinions, or with "facts" that were relevant years or decades ago.

Even the title of the thread shows your "opinion". You think that your large Buick is a "nice riding" sedan; I disagree--I think large sedans like that are floaty, and unenjoyble to drive. I prefer my BMW 3-Series--but you'll tell me I'm wrong, and the ride is harsh because of the low profile tires. The thing is -- I LIKE IT. You don't have to.

Honestly, you could have a very similar thread about manual transmissions. Fans will tell you how great they are, and lament their shrinking numbers. Auto manufactures say "Yeah, but why should we offer them when no one buys them?" Even the new G20 BMW 3-Series has abandoned them.

No one denies you your sadness in GM cutting cars that you really like. But just don't try to impose your opinions and will upon others who may feel differently. And Ford and GM believe a lot of people feel differently.