Declining sales of anything without 'utility' in its description
09-28-19, 11:37 AM
#331
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I saw test-drove, and yes, owned several new vehicles in the 1980s. Some problems, yes, were designed-in, but much of it was simple slipshod assembly.....parts loose or out of line, misaligned wheels /steering wheel, gauges that had not been wired in properly, shimmies from bad wheel balance or improperly-mounted tires, speedometer cables that pulled out of their housings.....the list was endless.
In fact, for small things that I didn't need the shop for, I spent a fair amount of time finishing the assembly on some of these cars, at home, working on them myself.
09-28-19, 11:45 AM
#332
Lexus Fanatic
I saw test-drove, and yes, owned several new vehicles in the 1980s. Some problems, yes, were designed-in, but much of it was simple slipshod assembly.....parts loose or out of line, misaligned wheels /steering wheel, gauges that had not been wired in properly, shimmies from bad wheel balance or improperly-mounted tires, speedometer cables that pulled out of their housings.....the list was endless.
In fact, for small things that I didn't need the shop for, I spent a fair amount of time finishing the assembly on some of these cars, at home, working on them myself.
In fact, for small things that I didn't need the shop for, I spent a fair amount of time finishing the assembly on some of these cars, at home, working on them myself.
09-28-19, 11:51 AM
#333
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I wasn't driving Toyotas in those days. I didn't get my first one until a brand-new 1995 Celica....Japanese built. Friends and colleagues of mine, though, had NUMMI-built products, including the Chevy/Geo Prizm.....essentially a rebadged Corolla. They were definitely better than what came out of most GM and Chrysler plants at the time.
UAW or not, though, Toyota, at that time, treated their employees better than the Big Three....and got better work out of them as a result. Roger Smith, who was GM chief at the time, was, IMO, one of the worst auto executives I can remember...though he did partially redeem himself with one thing....starting the Saturn Division, which completely revolutionized the concepts of customer treatment, small-car design, and employee working-conditions. Despite the crap-plastic interiors, I fell in love with the plastic-body S-series Saturns, owned two of them (one was excellent...the other had some stubborn built-in problems) and still lament their loss today.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-28-19 at 11:58 AM.
09-28-19, 12:01 PM
#335
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
I don't think you quite got what I said. In NUMMI's case, it was both. The Corolla has always been a good car mechanically, but even the best-designed vehicle will suffer if you have slipshod work at the plant.
09-28-19, 12:12 PM
#337
Lexus Champion
But, yet again, that is not how you present your argument. You don't say "I like the LaCrosse and MKZ". You say "These cars have a better ride." There's a difference in those 2 statements, even though you mean them the same way. YOU like the soft cushy ride, and you have every right to. But you are in a shrinking minority, which is why these cars, and cars like them, are going away.
09-28-19, 12:20 PM
#338
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
But, yet again, that is not how you present your argument. You don't say "I like the LaCrosse and MKZ". You say "These cars have a better ride." There's a difference in those 2 statements, even though you mean them the same way. YOU like the soft cushy ride, and you have every right to. But you are in a shrinking minority, which is why these cars, and cars like them, are going away.
YOU like the soft cushy ride, and you have every right to. But you are in a shrinking minority,
All of us, IMO, myself included, need to be more tolerant of other opinions....there's sometimes too much negativity and hostility in Car Chat. Second, it's true that my tastes are not currently in vogue with a lot of crossover/SUV buyers today...or with those who like stiff-riding sports-sedans. Third, don't forget that (although many of us don't want to hear it LOL) 
....none of us are getting any younger. The vehicles that many spurn today as Grandpa/Grandma sedans may not look so much out of place in a few more years, when those people themselves start to get arthritis, weak backs/knees, stiff joints, and lose some of that Fountain-of-Youth strength and vigor. 
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-28-19 at 12:34 PM.
09-28-19, 02:28 PM
#339
Lexus Champion
The next generation bought many more foreign cars. I remember my dad's 1st Subaru; the ride was pretty stiff. When that generation of drivers reaches "elderly" status, they don't necessarily migrate to a softer ride--they continue with what they are used to, and to them, what constitutes a "nice ride". Again, part of the reason sedans sales are being outpaced by SUVs. As parents turn into empty nesters, they are not as inclined to go back to a sedan with a lower seating position and lower view of the road; they want to stay with what they like, and what they are used to.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
09-28-19, 02:46 PM
#340
Lexus Champion
I hear what you are saying, but I see it slightly differently. Those grandmas and grandpas grew up with big American vehicles that had a softer ride. They like those cars, and that ride, because that's what they have driven for years.
The next generation bought many more foreign cars. I remember my dad's 1st Subaru; the ride was pretty stiff. When that generation of drivers reaches "elderly" status, they don't necessarily migrate to a softer ride--they continue with what they are used to, and to them, what constitutes a "nice ride". Again, part of the reason sedans sales are being outpaced by SUVs. As parents turn into empty nesters, they are not as inclined to go back to a sedan with a lower seating position and lower view of the road; they want to stay with what they like, and what they are used to.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
The next generation bought many more foreign cars. I remember my dad's 1st Subaru; the ride was pretty stiff. When that generation of drivers reaches "elderly" status, they don't necessarily migrate to a softer ride--they continue with what they are used to, and to them, what constitutes a "nice ride". Again, part of the reason sedans sales are being outpaced by SUVs. As parents turn into empty nesters, they are not as inclined to go back to a sedan with a lower seating position and lower view of the road; they want to stay with what they like, and what they are used to.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
09-28-19, 03:36 PM
#341
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
This might (?) surprise some of you folks, but I'm actually open to some SUV purchases or leases myself. Although, yes, it's no secret that I like traditional bigger plush sedans, there are a number of alternatives that I'd probably have no problem with. After all, I'm a vehicle-enthusiast....not just a sedan enthusiast. In fact, with the exception of the 2020 Corolla XSE, which I did a write-up on because of the unique starter-gear CVT I wanted to sample, look at what most of my latest write-ups have been....Explorer, Aviator, Telluride, Palisade, Rogue Sport, etc...)
I've liked the Subaru Outback for years.....owned a 2006 model myself for 6 years. Best winter car I've ever owned...absolutely nothing that D.C. winters (and even a two-foot blizzard) could toss at it that would stop it, although it fell a little short of the common image of the Outback's Rock-of-Gibraltar reliability.
And, even today, there are several SUVs that I like, and are (at least somewhat) attracted to. The 2Gen GMC Acadia, particularly in Denali trim, leads the list (one might expect me to say the Buick Enclave, but, for my purposes, it is too big and bulky, and, being single, I don't need or want third-row seating or huge amounts of space in back). But the Acadia has a lot of horror-stories in its forums on reliability and early-failures, and Consumer Reports also ranks it quite low on the reliability scale. The just-introduced Lincoln Aviator, though not perfect by any means, impressed me enough that I'm going to take a serious look at its smaller Corsair brother when it is introduced (expect a write-up from me.....and I'll also be interested in what Alex Dykes has to say). The small Lexus UX, in the AWD hybrid 2.0L version (the only way you can get AWD) really impressed me with its road manners for something that size (actually, IMO, more comfortable than the larger NX), though the tiny console controls for the radio s**k and, for someone my size, it is somewhat cramped inside.
So, never say never. Though I'm not in the market for a new vehicle right now (probably at least another 1-3 years), with the Lacrosse gone, the Impala almost gone, and a RWD coupe like a Camaro or Challenger not on my radar screen, a SUV is not out of the question. No credit to GM's recent actions at the corporate level, but it's possible that I might even stay with them next time because of the superb treatment my dealership (particularly my usual Service Advisor) gives me. I also casually know one of the dealership's owners (it's a family-owned buisness).....I went to a local high school with him back in the 60s, and we sat right next to each other in a couple of classes. Don't get to see him much, though...he's always busy.
Who knows?....might end up in an Acadia yet, problems or no.
I've liked the Subaru Outback for years.....owned a 2006 model myself for 6 years. Best winter car I've ever owned...absolutely nothing that D.C. winters (and even a two-foot blizzard) could toss at it that would stop it, although it fell a little short of the common image of the Outback's Rock-of-Gibraltar reliability.
And, even today, there are several SUVs that I like, and are (at least somewhat) attracted to. The 2Gen GMC Acadia, particularly in Denali trim, leads the list (one might expect me to say the Buick Enclave, but, for my purposes, it is too big and bulky, and, being single, I don't need or want third-row seating or huge amounts of space in back). But the Acadia has a lot of horror-stories in its forums on reliability and early-failures, and Consumer Reports also ranks it quite low on the reliability scale. The just-introduced Lincoln Aviator, though not perfect by any means, impressed me enough that I'm going to take a serious look at its smaller Corsair brother when it is introduced (expect a write-up from me.....and I'll also be interested in what Alex Dykes has to say). The small Lexus UX, in the AWD hybrid 2.0L version (the only way you can get AWD) really impressed me with its road manners for something that size (actually, IMO, more comfortable than the larger NX), though the tiny console controls for the radio s**k and, for someone my size, it is somewhat cramped inside.
So, never say never. Though I'm not in the market for a new vehicle right now (probably at least another 1-3 years), with the Lacrosse gone, the Impala almost gone, and a RWD coupe like a Camaro or Challenger not on my radar screen, a SUV is not out of the question. No credit to GM's recent actions at the corporate level, but it's possible that I might even stay with them next time because of the superb treatment my dealership (particularly my usual Service Advisor) gives me. I also casually know one of the dealership's owners (it's a family-owned buisness).....I went to a local high school with him back in the 60s, and we sat right next to each other in a couple of classes. Don't get to see him much, though...he's always busy.
Who knows?....might end up in an Acadia yet, problems or no.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-28-19 at 05:44 PM.
09-28-19, 06:10 PM
#342
Lexus Champion
This might (?) surprise some of you folks, but I'm actually open to some SUV purchases or leases myself. Although, yes, it's no secret that I like traditional bigger plush sedans, there are a number of alternatives that I'd probably have no problem with. After all, I'm a vehicle-enthusiast....not just a sedan enthusiast. In fact, with the exception of the 2020 Corolla XSE, which I did a write-up on because of the unique starter-gear CVT I wanted to sample, look at what most of my latest write-ups have been....Explorer, Aviator, Telluride, Palisade, Rogue Sport, etc...)
I've liked the Subaru Outback for years.....owned a 2006 model myself for 6 years. Best winter car I've ever owned...absolutely nothing that D.C. winters (and even a two-foot blizzard) could toss at it that would stop it, although it fell a little short of the common image of the Outback's Rock-of-Gibraltar reliability.
And, even today, there are several SUVs that I like, and are (at least somewhat) attracted to. The 2Gen GMC Acadia, particularly in Denali trim, leads the list (one might expect me to say the Buick Enclave, but, for my purposes, it is too big and bulky, and, being single, I don't need or want third-row seating or huge amounts of space in back). But the Acadia has a lot of horror-stories in its forums on reliability and early-failures, and Consumer Reports also ranks it quite low on the reliability scale. The just-introduced Lincoln Aviator, though not perfect by any means, impressed me enough that I'm going to take a serious look at its smaller Corsair brother when it is introduced (expect a write-up from me.....and I'll also be interested in what Alex Dykes has to say). The small Lexus UX, in the AWD hybrid 2.0L version (the only way you can get AWD) really impressed me with its road manners for something that size (actually, IMO, more comfortable than the larger NX), though the tiny console controls for the radio s**k and, for someone my size, it is somewhat cramped inside.
So, never say never. Though I'm not in the market for a new vehicle right now (probably at least another 1-3 years), with the Lacrosse gone, the Impala almost gone, and a RWD coupe like a Camaro or Challenger not on my radar screen, a SUV is not out of the question. No credit to GM's recent actions at the corporate level, but it's possible that I might even stay with them next time because of the superb treatment my dealership (particularly my usual Service Advisor) gives me. I also casually know one of the dealership's owners (it's a family-owned buisness).....I went to a local high school with him back in the 60s, and we sat right next to each other in a couple of classes. Don't get to see him much, though...he's always busy.
Who knows?....might end up in an Acadia yet, problems or no.
I've liked the Subaru Outback for years.....owned a 2006 model myself for 6 years. Best winter car I've ever owned...absolutely nothing that D.C. winters (and even a two-foot blizzard) could toss at it that would stop it, although it fell a little short of the common image of the Outback's Rock-of-Gibraltar reliability.
And, even today, there are several SUVs that I like, and are (at least somewhat) attracted to. The 2Gen GMC Acadia, particularly in Denali trim, leads the list (one might expect me to say the Buick Enclave, but, for my purposes, it is too big and bulky, and, being single, I don't need or want third-row seating or huge amounts of space in back). But the Acadia has a lot of horror-stories in its forums on reliability and early-failures, and Consumer Reports also ranks it quite low on the reliability scale. The just-introduced Lincoln Aviator, though not perfect by any means, impressed me enough that I'm going to take a serious look at its smaller Corsair brother when it is introduced (expect a write-up from me.....and I'll also be interested in what Alex Dykes has to say). The small Lexus UX, in the AWD hybrid 2.0L version (the only way you can get AWD) really impressed me with its road manners for something that size (actually, IMO, more comfortable than the larger NX), though the tiny console controls for the radio s**k and, for someone my size, it is somewhat cramped inside.
So, never say never. Though I'm not in the market for a new vehicle right now (probably at least another 1-3 years), with the Lacrosse gone, the Impala almost gone, and a RWD coupe like a Camaro or Challenger not on my radar screen, a SUV is not out of the question. No credit to GM's recent actions at the corporate level, but it's possible that I might even stay with them next time because of the superb treatment my dealership (particularly my usual Service Advisor) gives me. I also casually know one of the dealership's owners (it's a family-owned buisness).....I went to a local high school with him back in the 60s, and we sat right next to each other in a couple of classes. Don't get to see him much, though...he's always busy.
Who knows?....might end up in an Acadia yet, problems or no.
09-28-19, 06:54 PM
#343
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Yes, but a couple of things. First, it's not cavernous inside like some three-row SUVs....and markedly smaller than even the last-generation Acadia (I don't need a huge amount of space). Second, even on the high-trim Denali version, dropping and raising the 3rd-row seats (I'd keep them down most of the time), is ingeniously simple....just pull on a strap. Third, much of the time, I'd even probably have the second row seats down as well.
In my book, there's a lot going for the new Acadia. The Denali trim has the same instrument panel, V6 engine, and 9-speed transmission my Lacrosse has....with a couple of years of improvements to the engineering. The stop/start system for the engine now has an on/off button that was missing a couple of years ago. It has a lot of nice trim, chrome, and real brushed-aluminum strips inside. You can turn the A/C on and off with a button, not having to use the touch screen. The big 20-inch wheels at least have 55-series tires for a decent ride. I can do without the actual sunroofs (they can leak or fail with age) but it's nice to have a retractible shade to let in some light from overhead. The only thing I don't care for inside is the lack of shift-paddles (my Lacrosse did have paddles).....you have to manual-shift with tiny + / - buttons on the lower-dash, with L (Low) in between. I suspect the 2021 version will have the paddles.
In my book, there's a lot going for the new Acadia. The Denali trim has the same instrument panel, V6 engine, and 9-speed transmission my Lacrosse has....with a couple of years of improvements to the engineering. The stop/start system for the engine now has an on/off button that was missing a couple of years ago. It has a lot of nice trim, chrome, and real brushed-aluminum strips inside. You can turn the A/C on and off with a button, not having to use the touch screen. The big 20-inch wheels at least have 55-series tires for a decent ride. I can do without the actual sunroofs (they can leak or fail with age) but it's nice to have a retractible shade to let in some light from overhead. The only thing I don't care for inside is the lack of shift-paddles (my Lacrosse did have paddles).....you have to manual-shift with tiny + / - buttons on the lower-dash, with L (Low) in between. I suspect the 2021 version will have the paddles.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-28-19 at 07:05 PM.
09-28-19, 08:11 PM
#344
Lexus Fanatic
Yes, but a couple of things. First, it's not cavernous inside like some three-row SUVs....and markedly smaller than even the last-generation Acadia (I don't need a huge amount of space). Second, even on the high-trim Denali version, dropping and raising the 3rd-row seats (I'd keep them down most of the time), is ingeniously simple....just pull on a strap. Third, much of the time, I'd even probably have the second row seats down as well.
In my book, there's a lot going for the new Acadia. The Denali trim has the same instrument panel, V6 engine, and 9-speed transmission my Lacrosse has....with a couple of years of improvements to the engineering. The stop/start system for the engine now has an on/off button that was missing a couple of years ago. It has a lot of nice trim, chrome, and real brushed-aluminum strips inside. You can turn the A/C on and off with a button, not having to use the touch screen. The big 20-inch wheels at least have 55-series tires for a decent ride. I can do without the actual sunroofs (they can leak or fail with age) but it's nice to have a retractible shade to let in some light from overhead. The only thing I don't care for inside is the lack of shift-paddles (my Lacrosse did have paddles).....you have to manual-shift with tiny + / - buttons on the lower-dash, with L (Low) in between. I suspect the 2021 version will have the paddles.
In my book, there's a lot going for the new Acadia. The Denali trim has the same instrument panel, V6 engine, and 9-speed transmission my Lacrosse has....with a couple of years of improvements to the engineering. The stop/start system for the engine now has an on/off button that was missing a couple of years ago. It has a lot of nice trim, chrome, and real brushed-aluminum strips inside. You can turn the A/C on and off with a button, not having to use the touch screen. The big 20-inch wheels at least have 55-series tires for a decent ride. I can do without the actual sunroofs (they can leak or fail with age) but it's nice to have a retractible shade to let in some light from overhead. The only thing I don't care for inside is the lack of shift-paddles (my Lacrosse did have paddles).....you have to manual-shift with tiny + / - buttons on the lower-dash, with L (Low) in between. I suspect the 2021 version will have the paddles.
09-28-19, 08:17 PM
#345
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
^^^ those shift controls are bizarre. 