Declining sales of anything without 'utility' in its description
12-04-18, 07:03 AM
#122
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Resale (residual) values only show projected demand for them as used cars. They do not accurately gauge the actual build-quality of those vehicles. Today's Korean vehicles, for instance, are, in some ways, built as well or better than Japanese vehicles, yet still lag in resale value because so many people are living in the past and, in their minds, still associate Hyundai and Kia with their 1980s and 1990s junk. It's very frustrating to deal with those people (I've have to do it more than once)..but, once they actually go and LOOK, they often change their minds.
12-04-18, 07:08 AM
#123
Lexus Fanatic
Disagree. There have been some real problems in full-size GM trucks. For a number of years, for example, they had inexcusably poor, Push-and-Pray brakes that was not rectified until the 2007 model year. That was also the year that the big trucks and SUVs finally started getting away from plastic-toy-grade interiors. The original Cadillac Escalade was also not very impressive....it was a quick knee-jerk reaction, using a basic Chevy Suburban, to the then-new Lincoln Navigator, and was not well done at all.....many reviewers and CR panned it. The next-generation Escalade, which was planned that way from the ground up, was a noticeable improvement.
Even Toyota has had periods of vehicles where there have been issues. Remember engine sludging in the 3.0 V6 models between 1998-2001? Unintended acceleration claims? Toyota recalled a ton of Siennas because their sliding doors wouldn't stay latched, there are lots of issues. BUT, the product overall is good and Toyota for the most part stands by their product, hence those issues didnt define Toyota to the consumer. GM's poor quality cars made for decades DEFINE GM to the car consumer to this day. I'm almost 38, and for my ENTIRE life until the last 5-7 years GM has built total garbage rental cars. Total garbage. That stays with me and my peers as a consumer. For my entire life Toyota has built excellent cars. That also stays with me and my peers.
Who cares who panned the Escalade, people bought a ton of them, and the Escalade won out as the bling-ey American luxury SUV over the Navigator. Its a business, what matters is what people buy. Arguing what people "should" buy is a worthless argument, because what the consumer wants is paramount when you are selling something to a consumer. Consumers in the US don't want GM cars, they don't want Ford cars. They DO want GM and Ford TRUCKS, which is why they are doubling down on trucks where they are strongest and their profits are the best.
Last edited by SW17LS; 12-04-18 at 07:12 AM.
12-04-18, 07:26 AM
#124
Lexus Fanatic
The point is the buying public agrees. I understand that you don't agree, but theres a reason why people don't buy the cars that you like, and buyers have a stigma about the cars that you like and they don't against the trucks. GM trucks last, they don't rust out and fall apart, along the way there were periods where there were issues (there are with any car) but those issues didn't define GM's trucks like it did their cars.
Even Toyota has had periods of vehicles where there have been issues. Remember engine sludging in the 3.0 V6 models between 1998-2001? Unintended acceleration claims? Toyota recalled a ton of Siennas because their sliding doors wouldn't stay latched, there are lots of issues. BUT, the product overall is good and Toyota for the most part stands by their product, hence those issues didnt define Toyota to the consumer. GM's poor quality cars made for decades DEFINE GM to the car consumer to this day. I'm almost 38, and for my ENTIRE life until the last 5-7 years GM has built total garbage rental cars. Total garbage. That stays with me and my peers as a consumer. For my entire life Toyota has built excellent cars. That also stays with me and my peers.
Who cares who panned the Escalade, people bought a ton of them, and the Escalade won out as the bling-ey American luxury SUV over the Navigator. Its a business, what matters is what people buy. Arguing what people "should" buy is a worthless argument, because what the consumer wants is paramount when you are selling something to a consumer. Consumers in the US don't want GM cars, they don't want Ford cars. They DO want GM and Ford TRUCKS, which is why they are doubling down on trucks where they are strongest and their profits are the best.
Even Toyota has had periods of vehicles where there have been issues. Remember engine sludging in the 3.0 V6 models between 1998-2001? Unintended acceleration claims? Toyota recalled a ton of Siennas because their sliding doors wouldn't stay latched, there are lots of issues. BUT, the product overall is good and Toyota for the most part stands by their product, hence those issues didnt define Toyota to the consumer. GM's poor quality cars made for decades DEFINE GM to the car consumer to this day. I'm almost 38, and for my ENTIRE life until the last 5-7 years GM has built total garbage rental cars. Total garbage. That stays with me and my peers as a consumer. For my entire life Toyota has built excellent cars. That also stays with me and my peers.
Who cares who panned the Escalade, people bought a ton of them, and the Escalade won out as the bling-ey American luxury SUV over the Navigator. Its a business, what matters is what people buy. Arguing what people "should" buy is a worthless argument, because what the consumer wants is paramount when you are selling something to a consumer. Consumers in the US don't want GM cars, they don't want Ford cars. They DO want GM and Ford TRUCKS, which is why they are doubling down on trucks where they are strongest and their profits are the best.
12-04-18, 07:59 AM
#125
Lexus Champion
Interesting discussion on GM trucks versus cars.
I have owned one GM car, a 2001 Saturn SL2 that I bought brand new (my first new car out of college). I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I bought it because it was cheaper and better equipped than a comparable Civic or Corolla, which is what I really wanted. The car was decent, though there were some issues. Had to have the head gasket replaced at 40k miles (just out of warranty), the fuel pump was out by 60k, and my sunroof motor was dead at about the 4 year mark (I'm in Seattle, come on). But overall, I wouldn't mind a GM car, it's just that they don't really appeal to me right now.
I currently have a 2001 Silverado. It sits for weeks at a time, as I just use it for runs to Home Depot, the recycling center, yard work, etc. Has about 80k miles on it. All I've had to replace is tires, a battery, and the alternator. I think that's decent. Always starts right up.
But I have no personal issues with GM's decision here. They are a for-profit company, and if they can improve profits by abandoning certain markets, then I think it makes total sense. Trump attacked my employer too when our CEO made a negative comment about the tariffs, which have impacted us significantly. It's just what he does, and soon he'll move on to a new target.
I have owned one GM car, a 2001 Saturn SL2 that I bought brand new (my first new car out of college). I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I bought it because it was cheaper and better equipped than a comparable Civic or Corolla, which is what I really wanted. The car was decent, though there were some issues. Had to have the head gasket replaced at 40k miles (just out of warranty), the fuel pump was out by 60k, and my sunroof motor was dead at about the 4 year mark (I'm in Seattle, come on). But overall, I wouldn't mind a GM car, it's just that they don't really appeal to me right now.
I currently have a 2001 Silverado. It sits for weeks at a time, as I just use it for runs to Home Depot, the recycling center, yard work, etc. Has about 80k miles on it. All I've had to replace is tires, a battery, and the alternator. I think that's decent. Always starts right up.
But I have no personal issues with GM's decision here. They are a for-profit company, and if they can improve profits by abandoning certain markets, then I think it makes total sense. Trump attacked my employer too when our CEO made a negative comment about the tariffs, which have impacted us significantly. It's just what he does, and soon he'll move on to a new target.
12-04-18, 12:29 PM
#126
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Interesting discussion on GM trucks versus cars.I have owned one GM car, a 2001 Saturn SL2 that I bought brand new (my first new car out of college). I thoroughly enjoyed it, but I bought it because it was cheaper and better equipped than a comparable Civic or Corolla, which is what I really wanted. The car was decent, though there were some issues. Had to have the head gasket replaced at 40k miles (just out of warranty), the fuel pump was out by 60k, and my sunroof motor was dead at about the 4 year mark (I'm in Seattle, come on). But overall, I wouldn't mind a GM car, it's just that they don't really appeal to me right now.
I had one that was two years older than yours (a 1999)...right before the 2000 redesign. Although the reliability of the S-series cars was considered above average for the period (almost comparable to the Corolla or Civic) they were not without issues. For one, they didn't even get my order right at the Spring Hill plant, and sent through one with more options on it than I ordered (I accepted delivery just the same). But the real jewel in these cars was their ingenious features. The thermoplastic side-body panels were almost imperious to dents, dings, or corrosion. The space-frame was quite sturdy and protective in accidents. Damaged body panels went on and off the space-frame with a couple of clips....and they could be ordered from the factory already pre-painted. The water-borne paint job (on the plastic panels) was like a mirror..though soft and rather easily scratched. And the spin-off transmission filter made fluid changes, like with engine oil changes, a simple, inexpensive function. I still think, to this day, that it was one of the most ingenious small cars ever designed.
12-05-18, 05:45 AM
#127
Lexus Champion
Resale (residual) values only show projected demand for them as used cars. They do not accurately gauge the actual build-quality of those vehicles. Today's Korean vehicles, for instance, are, in some ways, built as well or better than Japanese vehicles, yet still lag in resale value because so many people are living in the past and, in their minds, still associate Hyundai and Kia with their 1980s and 1990s junk. It's very frustrating to deal with those people (I've have to do it more than once)..but, once they actually go and LOOK, they often change their minds.
And--I find it very ironic that you are complaining about the past reputation of Hyundai and Kia, while constantly romanticizing about the nostalgic era of large American sedans. You want Kia and Hyundai haters to change their minds....but you are steadfast in your beliefs about Buicks and Cadillacs.
12-05-18, 06:15 AM
#128
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
unless i missed it, mmarshall, it appears no one agrees with you in this thread about the 'great war'.
to paraphrase the late daniel patrick moynihan, you're certainly entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
to paraphrase the late daniel patrick moynihan, you're certainly entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
Last edited by bitkahuna; 12-05-18 at 06:27 AM.
12-05-18, 06:33 AM
#130
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
And facts are not always determined simply by by numbers. If they were, Galileo and Copernicus would not have gotten into trouble.
Last edited by mmarshall; 12-05-18 at 06:41 AM.
12-05-18, 06:39 AM
#131
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
This is why consumer publications publish "Total Cost of Ownership" figures. If a car has a high residual value, the fact that you "pay more" up front on the purchase price doesn't necessarily mean you pay more over the total life of the car. Even putting aside repair costs, when you are ready to sell/trade your car, if the value of a Honda is higher than the value of a comparable Chevy, in the long run, maybe you didn't "pay more" for your Honda.
And--I find it very ironic that you are complaining about the past reputation of Hyundai and Kia, while constantly romanticizing about the nostalgic era of large American sedans. You want Kia and Hyundai haters to change their minds....but you are steadfast in your beliefs about Buicks and Cadillacs.
And--I find it very ironic that you are complaining about the past reputation of Hyundai and Kia, while constantly romanticizing about the nostalgic era of large American sedans. You want Kia and Hyundai haters to change their minds....but you are steadfast in your beliefs about Buicks and Cadillacs.
No. You are putting the cart before the horse. The quality of new Hyundais and Kia speak for themselves.....they don't need any help from me. If people don't want to go look at them, then that's their loss, not mine. As for big American sedans, again, it is not an issue about me. There always was, and always will be fans...it is simply an issue of numbers. Right now, the numbers are down. They were also down in the mid-late 1970s, after the first fuel shortage, for those of you too young to remember, yet bounced back a few years later.
12-05-18, 06:46 AM
#132
Lexus Champion
No. You are putting the cart before the horse. The quality of new Hyundais and Kia speak for themselves.....they don't need any help from me. If people don't want to go look at them, then that's their loss, not mine. As for big American sedans, again, it is not an issue about me. There always was, and always will be fans...it is simply an issue of numbers. Right now, the numbers are down. They were also down in the mid-late 1970s, after the first fuel shortage, for those of you too young to remember, yet bounced back a few years later.
12-05-18, 06:49 AM
#134
Lexus Fanatic
Lol. It’s not even a “Great War”. It’s not a world war that’s for sure. China still gets these big Buick’s and Cadillac’s. It’s a war on American soil against those who like big American cars.
sounds like some sort of civil war to me 
how dare consumers make choices and buy what they please.