Hydrogen vehicles discussion
02-24-23, 08:02 AM
#196
Lead Lap
02-26-23, 07:17 PM
#197
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
Energy experts sound alarm about US electric grid: ‘Not designed to withstand the impacts of climate change’
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/us/po...nge/index.html
02-27-23, 07:47 AM
#198
Lead Lap
ok then...
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/us/po...nge/index.html
Energy experts sound alarm about US electric grid: ‘Not designed to withstand the impacts of climate change’
https://www.cnn.com/2022/05/31/us/po...nge/index.html
02-27-23, 07:53 AM
#199
Lexus Champion
Car and Driver got some seat time in a 2023 BMW iX5 Hydrogen.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ototype-drive/
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews...ototype-drive/
02-27-23, 09:27 AM
#200
Pole Position
I have some experience here, I ran a hydrogen car for three years. And for me, it worked well. The car was quiet, comfortable, decent technology, extremely well built (largely by hand, in Japan, on the same production facility that built the LFA), it got me HOV access (a huge benefit in Silicon Valley) and it was basically free. Free fuel totalling much more than the entire cost of leasing, nearly 5K in rebates, no cost to service and so on. The fueling infrastructure mostly worked well, more on that in a bit, and the main benefit was that you could generally add full range in about five minutes. For a current gen Mirai that's around 400 miles. You can't currently do that or even close to that in a BEV and it's going to be a long while before we can. We generally have pretty good H2 infrastructure in California. With that said, there were some problems, we had a couple of hydrocalypses when one of the Air Products facilities had a fire and some other availability issues. It also highlighted that even here we only just had enough infrastructure, and there was no plan B. If your stations were down or had no H2, you've no alternative. It wasn't like with a BEV where if one station is down there will be another reasonably near by.
with all this in mind, it highlighted for me that there probably is a passenger car use-case for hydrogen, and it's for people who can't charge a BEV at home. A group that gets brought up a lot here on CL. If you can't charge at home, you haven option other than to use public charging, There's a lot of EV charging out there. but even in the best cases you're taking 20 mins or so to go from 10% or 20% to around 80% charge. That doesn't scale. You're not getting full range with these charges, so you're back more option because you're adding fewer miles with each partial charge. The H2 fill is more like filling up an ICE car, a full 300 to 400 mile range in around 5 mins. Sure, BEVs absolutely have advantages, and where you can it makes sense to push energy straight into the battery, but not everyone can do that. If you can't charge at home but an electric vehicle otherwise makes sense for a customer then H2 makes it possible. Electric cars are an inevitable future, and BEVs and H2 fuel cells can coexist as needed. We will always be able to produce clean 100% renewable electricity, well at least until the sun, wind and waves stop working, and we will always be able to make 100% renewable hydrogen.
with all this in mind, it highlighted for me that there probably is a passenger car use-case for hydrogen, and it's for people who can't charge a BEV at home. A group that gets brought up a lot here on CL. If you can't charge at home, you haven option other than to use public charging, There's a lot of EV charging out there. but even in the best cases you're taking 20 mins or so to go from 10% or 20% to around 80% charge. That doesn't scale. You're not getting full range with these charges, so you're back more option because you're adding fewer miles with each partial charge. The H2 fill is more like filling up an ICE car, a full 300 to 400 mile range in around 5 mins. Sure, BEVs absolutely have advantages, and where you can it makes sense to push energy straight into the battery, but not everyone can do that. If you can't charge at home but an electric vehicle otherwise makes sense for a customer then H2 makes it possible. Electric cars are an inevitable future, and BEVs and H2 fuel cells can coexist as needed. We will always be able to produce clean 100% renewable electricity, well at least until the sun, wind and waves stop working, and we will always be able to make 100% renewable hydrogen.
Last edited by swajames; 02-27-23 at 09:33 AM.
02-27-23, 09:46 AM
#201
Lexus Champion
I have some experience here, I ran a hydrogen car for three years. And for me, it worked well. The car was quiet, comfortable, decent technology, extremely well built (largely by hand, in Japan, on the same production facility that built the LFA), it got me HOV access (a huge benefit in Silicon Valley) and it was basically free. Free fuel totalling much more than the entire cost of leasing, nearly 5K in rebates, no cost to service and so on. The fueling infrastructure mostly worked well, more on that in a bit, and the main benefit was that you could generally add full range in about five minutes. For a current gen Mirai that's around 400 miles. You can't currently do that or even close to that in a BEV and it's going to be a long while before we can. We generally have pretty good H2 infrastructure in California. With that said, there were some problems, we had a couple of hydrocalypses when one of the Air Products facilities had a fire and some other availability issues. It also highlighted that even here we only just had enough infrastructure, and there was no plan B. If your stations were down or had no H2, you've no alternative. It wasn't like with a BEV where if one station is down there will be another reasonably near by.
with all this in mind, it highlighted for me that there probably is a passenger car use-case for hydrogen, and it's for people who can't charge a BEV at home. A group that gets brought up a lot here on CL. If you can't charge at home, you haven option other than to use public charging, There's a lot of EV charging out there. but even in the best cases you're taking 20 mins or so to go from 10% or 20% to around 80% charge. That doesn't scale. You're not getting full range with these charges, so you're back more option because you're adding fewer miles with each partial charge. The H2 fill is more like filling up an ICE car, a full 300 to 400 mile range in around 5 mins. Sure, BEVs absolutely have advantages, and where you can it makes sense to push energy straight into the battery, but not everyone can do that. If you can't charge at home but an electric vehicle otherwise makes sense for a customer then H2 makes it possible. Electric cars are an inevitable future, and BEVs and H2 fuel cells can coexist as needed. We will always be able to produce clean 100% renewable electricity, well at least until the sun, wind and waves stop working, and we will always be able to make 100% renewable hydrogen.
with all this in mind, it highlighted for me that there probably is a passenger car use-case for hydrogen, and it's for people who can't charge a BEV at home. A group that gets brought up a lot here on CL. If you can't charge at home, you haven option other than to use public charging, There's a lot of EV charging out there. but even in the best cases you're taking 20 mins or so to go from 10% or 20% to around 80% charge. That doesn't scale. You're not getting full range with these charges, so you're back more option because you're adding fewer miles with each partial charge. The H2 fill is more like filling up an ICE car, a full 300 to 400 mile range in around 5 mins. Sure, BEVs absolutely have advantages, and where you can it makes sense to push energy straight into the battery, but not everyone can do that. If you can't charge at home but an electric vehicle otherwise makes sense for a customer then H2 makes it possible. Electric cars are an inevitable future, and BEVs and H2 fuel cells can coexist as needed. We will always be able to produce clean 100% renewable electricity, well at least until the sun, wind and waves stop working, and we will always be able to make 100% renewable hydrogen.
02-27-23, 12:42 PM
#202
I have some experience here, I ran a hydrogen car for three years. And for me, it worked well. The car was quiet, comfortable, decent technology, extremely well built (largely by hand, in Japan, on the same production facility that built the LFA), it got me HOV access (a huge benefit in Silicon Valley) and it was basically free. Free fuel totalling much more than the entire cost of leasing, nearly 5K in rebates, no cost to service and so on. The fueling infrastructure mostly worked well, more on that in a bit, and the main benefit was that you could generally add full range in about five minutes. For a current gen Mirai that's around 400 miles. You can't currently do that or even close to that in a BEV and it's going to be a long while before we can. We generally have pretty good H2 infrastructure in California. With that said, there were some problems, we had a couple of hydrocalypses when one of the Air Products facilities had a fire and some other availability issues. It also highlighted that even here we only just had enough infrastructure, and there was no plan B. If your stations were down or had no H2, you've no alternative. It wasn't like with a BEV where if one station is down there will be another reasonably near by.
with all this in mind, it highlighted for me that there probably is a passenger car use-case for hydrogen, and it's for people who can't charge a BEV at home. A group that gets brought up a lot here on CL. If you can't charge at home, you haven option other than to use public charging, There's a lot of EV charging out there. but even in the best cases you're taking 20 mins or so to go from 10% or 20% to around 80% charge. That doesn't scale. You're not getting full range with these charges, so you're back more option because you're adding fewer miles with each partial charge. The H2 fill is more like filling up an ICE car, a full 300 to 400 mile range in around 5 mins. Sure, BEVs absolutely have advantages, and where you can it makes sense to push energy straight into the battery, but not everyone can do that. If you can't charge at home but an electric vehicle otherwise makes sense for a customer then H2 makes it possible. Electric cars are an inevitable future, and BEVs and H2 fuel cells can coexist as needed. We will always be able to produce clean 100% renewable electricity, well at least until the sun, wind and waves stop working, and we will always be able to make 100% renewable hydrogen.
with all this in mind, it highlighted for me that there probably is a passenger car use-case for hydrogen, and it's for people who can't charge a BEV at home. A group that gets brought up a lot here on CL. If you can't charge at home, you haven option other than to use public charging, There's a lot of EV charging out there. but even in the best cases you're taking 20 mins or so to go from 10% or 20% to around 80% charge. That doesn't scale. You're not getting full range with these charges, so you're back more option because you're adding fewer miles with each partial charge. The H2 fill is more like filling up an ICE car, a full 300 to 400 mile range in around 5 mins. Sure, BEVs absolutely have advantages, and where you can it makes sense to push energy straight into the battery, but not everyone can do that. If you can't charge at home but an electric vehicle otherwise makes sense for a customer then H2 makes it possible. Electric cars are an inevitable future, and BEVs and H2 fuel cells can coexist as needed. We will always be able to produce clean 100% renewable electricity, well at least until the sun, wind and waves stop working, and we will always be able to make 100% renewable hydrogen.
04-06-23, 07:22 PM
#203
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
iTrader: (20)
As fossil fuel emissions continue warming Earth’s atmosphere, the Biden administration is turning to hydrogen as an energy source for vehicles, manufacturing and generating electricity.
It's (fed govt) offering $8 billion to entice the nation’s industries, engineers and planners to figure out how to produce and deliver clean hydrogen. States and businesses are making final pitches Friday as they compete for a new program that will create regional networks, or “hubs,” of hydrogen producers, consumers and infrastructure. The aim is to accelerate the availability and use of the colorless, odorless gas that already powers some vehicles and trains.
It's (fed govt) offering $8 billion to entice the nation’s industries, engineers and planners to figure out how to produce and deliver clean hydrogen. States and businesses are making final pitches Friday as they compete for a new program that will create regional networks, or “hubs,” of hydrogen producers, consumers and infrastructure. The aim is to accelerate the availability and use of the colorless, odorless gas that already powers some vehicles and trains.
04-06-23, 07:44 PM
#204
Lexus Fanatic
A hydrogen pipeline is starting to take shape in Europe. Canada has a new hydrogen facility on then east coast. Same with Alberta that is coming. No carbon tax on hydrogen so I think it’s cheaper in BC and Quebec to fill a Mirai than it is a Corolla
04-06-23, 10:49 PM
#205
Intermediate
I have some experience here, I ran a hydrogen car for three years. And for me, it worked well. The car was quiet, comfortable, decent technology, extremely well built (largely by hand, in Japan, on the same production facility that built the LFA), it got me HOV access (a huge benefit in Silicon Valley) and it was basically free. Free fuel totalling much more than the entire cost of leasing, nearly 5K in rebates, no cost to service and so on. The fueling infrastructure mostly worked well, more on that in a bit, and the main benefit was that you could generally add full range in about five minutes. For a current gen Mirai that's around 400 miles. You can't currently do that or even close to that in a BEV and it's going to be a long while before we can. We generally have pretty good H2 infrastructure in California. With that said, there were some problems, we had a couple of hydrocalypses when one of the Air Products facilities had a fire and some other availability issues. It also highlighted that even here we only just had enough infrastructure, and there was no plan B. If your stations were down or had no H2, you've no alternative. It wasn't like with a BEV where if one station is down there will be another reasonably near by.
with all this in mind, it highlighted for me that there probably is a passenger car use-case for hydrogen, and it's for people who can't charge a BEV at home. A group that gets brought up a lot here on CL. If you can't charge at home, you haven option other than to use public charging, There's a lot of EV charging out there. but even in the best cases you're taking 20 mins or so to go from 10% or 20% to around 80% charge. That doesn't scale. You're not getting full range with these charges, so you're back more option because you're adding fewer miles with each partial charge. The H2 fill is more like filling up an ICE car, a full 300 to 400 mile range in around 5 mins. Sure, BEVs absolutely have advantages, and where you can it makes sense to push energy straight into the battery, but not everyone can do that. If you can't charge at home but an electric vehicle otherwise makes sense for a customer then H2 makes it possible. Electric cars are an inevitable future, and BEVs and H2 fuel cells can coexist as needed. We will always be able to produce clean 100% renewable electricity, well at least until the sun, wind and waves stop working, and we will always be able to make 100% renewable hydrogen.
with all this in mind, it highlighted for me that there probably is a passenger car use-case for hydrogen, and it's for people who can't charge a BEV at home. A group that gets brought up a lot here on CL. If you can't charge at home, you haven option other than to use public charging, There's a lot of EV charging out there. but even in the best cases you're taking 20 mins or so to go from 10% or 20% to around 80% charge. That doesn't scale. You're not getting full range with these charges, so you're back more option because you're adding fewer miles with each partial charge. The H2 fill is more like filling up an ICE car, a full 300 to 400 mile range in around 5 mins. Sure, BEVs absolutely have advantages, and where you can it makes sense to push energy straight into the battery, but not everyone can do that. If you can't charge at home but an electric vehicle otherwise makes sense for a customer then H2 makes it possible. Electric cars are an inevitable future, and BEVs and H2 fuel cells can coexist as needed. We will always be able to produce clean 100% renewable electricity, well at least until the sun, wind and waves stop working, and we will always be able to make 100% renewable hydrogen.
Also I’m not really seeing a manifested concern of losing 5 min refueling times with a BEV considering that gas cars already have a 5 min refueling time and yet BEVs are still outselling them substantially. Personally I see battery technology advancing far quicker than hydrogen stations are being built. Currently, hydrogen cars are the ONLY cars that limit your commute to just one US state: California. Add to that that BEV charging stations are the ONLY stations that can be powered by the sun without the need of transporting and storing fuel as you have to with gas and hydrogen cars.
04-07-23, 12:16 AM
#206
A possible setback on using hydrogen as an alternative fuel source
I have been hoping for further development of hydrogen production and refueling infrastructure as much as I am for the technology on the battery electric side of things and this article from a couple of days ago was... not a fun thing to read.
We'll have to see how this research and peer review goes but if this holds true then it may not be good for using hydrogen as a vehicle fuel source in either fuel cell electrics, heavy industrial applications AND niche sports model hydrogen internal combustion models and conversions.
Basically the issue is NOT the water vapor emissions from HCV's or hydrogen internal combustion engines but rather inevitable leaks and venting of high pressure pure hydrogen into the atmosphere on a massive collective scale through the very infrastructure that produces it, stores it, transfers it from one container to another and from the storage tanks and fittings in hydrogen powered vehicles.
The BMW Hydrogen 7 had a quirk where if you didn't drive and use up the pressurized hydrogen within a certain amount of time it would automatically begin to vent out some of that pure H2 to relieve excess internal pressure.
https://jalopnik.com/new-hydrogen-research-reminds-us-humanity-just-cant-win-1850303466
https://scitechdaily.com/switching-to-hydrogen-fuel-could-cause-long-term-climate-consequences/
The study was conducted by Princeton University and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association. Hydrogen reacts with another molecule called hydroxyl radical (OH) that, on its own, typically reduces the buildup of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. The researchers found that once a certain threshold of hydrogen emissions is surpassed, OH cannot do its job, leading to an overabundance of methane. From Sci Tech Daily:
The hydroxyl radical also reacts with hydrogen gas in the atmosphere. And since a limited amount of OH is generated each day, any spike in hydrogen emissions means that more OH would be used to break down hydrogen, leaving less OH available to break down methane. As a consequence, methane would stay longer in the atmosphere, extending its warming impacts.
According to Bertagni, the effects of a hydrogen spike that might occur as government incentives for hydrogen production expand could have decades-long climate consequences for the planet.
“If you emit some hydrogen into the atmosphere now, it will lead to a progressive build-up of methane in the following years,” [postdoctoral researcher at High Meadows Environmental Institute Matteo] Bertagni said. “Even though hydrogen only has a lifespan of around two years in the atmosphere, you’ll still have the methane feedback from that hydrogen in 30 years from now.”
In the study, the researchers identified the tipping point at which hydrogen emissions would lead to an increase in atmospheric methane and thereby undermine some of the near-term benefits of hydrogen as a clean fuel. By identifying that threshold, the researchers established targets for managing hydrogen emissions.
It’s critical that hydrogen emissions are kept below that tipping point, even if it’s being used to broadly replace fossil fuels. Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles emit only water vapor of course, but the key here is that there are always leaks in the production and transport process. And if enough methane and hydrogen are leaked together, well — you may as well have just burned gasoline.
“Managing leakage rates of hydrogen and methane will be critical,” Bertagni said. “If you have just a small amount of methane leakage and a bit of hydrogen leakage, then the blue hydrogen that you produce really might not be much better than using fossil fuels, at least for the next 20 to 30 years.”
So maybe it’s good that automakers aren’t hurrying to pump out hydrogen fuel-cell cars in droves. Maybe. Lithium production will have to increase six-fold by 2035 to support the number of EVs manufacturers plan to build, electricity is likely to get real pricey at night and battery-powered big rigs will need charging stations supplied with a small town’s worth of energy to stay on the road. Meanwhile, synthetic e-fuels are still exorbitantly inexpensive because the process to create them is remarkably inefficient — and even if that weren’t true, they’d still pollute city air as badly the real stuff. There are no easy answers here.
On yet another front, synthetic CO2 neutral gasoline and diesel in the short term seems to not have any surprise downside in this sense other than that it is produced with recaptured CO2 and combusts to spit out that same CO2 all over again. So it is not adding any CO2 back that wasn't there already. Of course it will be at a higher cost per gallon or liter than conventional gasoline or diesel. But eventually (talking decades from now) you presumably will have a harder time producing the stuff... eventually. But we're not there quite yet with synthetic fuels.
....
I look forward to reading more studies on the long term effects of hydrogen leakage into the atmosphere but so far this is not fun news.
We'll have to see how this research and peer review goes but if this holds true then it may not be good for using hydrogen as a vehicle fuel source in either fuel cell electrics, heavy industrial applications AND niche sports model hydrogen internal combustion models and conversions.
Basically the issue is NOT the water vapor emissions from HCV's or hydrogen internal combustion engines but rather inevitable leaks and venting of high pressure pure hydrogen into the atmosphere on a massive collective scale through the very infrastructure that produces it, stores it, transfers it from one container to another and from the storage tanks and fittings in hydrogen powered vehicles.
The BMW Hydrogen 7 had a quirk where if you didn't drive and use up the pressurized hydrogen within a certain amount of time it would automatically begin to vent out some of that pure H2 to relieve excess internal pressure.
https://jalopnik.com/new-hydrogen-research-reminds-us-humanity-just-cant-win-1850303466
https://scitechdaily.com/switching-to-hydrogen-fuel-could-cause-long-term-climate-consequences/
New Hydrogen Research Reminds Us Humanity Just Can't Win With Fuel Alternatives
Too much hydrogen in the sky could limit atmospheric breakdown of methane, researchers warn.
There is no perfect energy source, nothing that will power our vehicles without some kind of catch. Consider hydrogen. For decades it’s been propped up as a worthy alternative to oil, even if infrastructure-related hiccups seem to always hold it back from reaching its full potential. Nevertheless, there seems to be a bit of space left for hydrogen-powered vehicles even in a battery electric-dominated world. But new research indicates that hydrogen buildup could have adverse effects on the climate, not terribly unlike the fuel it’s meant to replace.The study was conducted by Princeton University and the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Association. Hydrogen reacts with another molecule called hydroxyl radical (OH) that, on its own, typically reduces the buildup of greenhouse gases in the atmosphere. The researchers found that once a certain threshold of hydrogen emissions is surpassed, OH cannot do its job, leading to an overabundance of methane. From Sci Tech Daily:
The hydroxyl radical also reacts with hydrogen gas in the atmosphere. And since a limited amount of OH is generated each day, any spike in hydrogen emissions means that more OH would be used to break down hydrogen, leaving less OH available to break down methane. As a consequence, methane would stay longer in the atmosphere, extending its warming impacts.
According to Bertagni, the effects of a hydrogen spike that might occur as government incentives for hydrogen production expand could have decades-long climate consequences for the planet.
“If you emit some hydrogen into the atmosphere now, it will lead to a progressive build-up of methane in the following years,” [postdoctoral researcher at High Meadows Environmental Institute Matteo] Bertagni said. “Even though hydrogen only has a lifespan of around two years in the atmosphere, you’ll still have the methane feedback from that hydrogen in 30 years from now.”
In the study, the researchers identified the tipping point at which hydrogen emissions would lead to an increase in atmospheric methane and thereby undermine some of the near-term benefits of hydrogen as a clean fuel. By identifying that threshold, the researchers established targets for managing hydrogen emissions.
It’s critical that hydrogen emissions are kept below that tipping point, even if it’s being used to broadly replace fossil fuels. Hydrogen fuel-cell vehicles emit only water vapor of course, but the key here is that there are always leaks in the production and transport process. And if enough methane and hydrogen are leaked together, well — you may as well have just burned gasoline.
“Managing leakage rates of hydrogen and methane will be critical,” Bertagni said. “If you have just a small amount of methane leakage and a bit of hydrogen leakage, then the blue hydrogen that you produce really might not be much better than using fossil fuels, at least for the next 20 to 30 years.”
So maybe it’s good that automakers aren’t hurrying to pump out hydrogen fuel-cell cars in droves. Maybe. Lithium production will have to increase six-fold by 2035 to support the number of EVs manufacturers plan to build, electricity is likely to get real pricey at night and battery-powered big rigs will need charging stations supplied with a small town’s worth of energy to stay on the road. Meanwhile, synthetic e-fuels are still exorbitantly inexpensive because the process to create them is remarkably inefficient — and even if that weren’t true, they’d still pollute city air as badly the real stuff. There are no easy answers here.
On yet another front, synthetic CO2 neutral gasoline and diesel in the short term seems to not have any surprise downside in this sense other than that it is produced with recaptured CO2 and combusts to spit out that same CO2 all over again. So it is not adding any CO2 back that wasn't there already. Of course it will be at a higher cost per gallon or liter than conventional gasoline or diesel. But eventually (talking decades from now) you presumably will have a harder time producing the stuff... eventually. But we're not there quite yet with synthetic fuels.
....
I look forward to reading more studies on the long term effects of hydrogen leakage into the atmosphere but so far this is not fun news.
Last edited by KahnBB6; 04-07-23 at 12:38 AM.