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FWD vs RWD & modern technology in the snow...

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Old 01-16-19 | 06:06 PM
  #61  
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I don't envy you guys having to deal with the constant winter weather, lol. Two inches of snow shuts literally the entire city of Knoxville down (Knoxville isn't a teeny city), everyone freaks out (in fun way) and it turns into a city-wide party, and all you'll see out on the roads are (real) trucks and SUVs. The last time it legit snowed my whole group of friends happened to be together and we all walked to the liquor store and bought them out of Grey Goose before they were shutting down hahahaha.

Where my spouse is from (Rochester NY) is a different story, it could be literally a blizzard and life just goes on normally, and they all hate it. I do notice that many cars do have snow tires on in the winter up there and yes, everyone says it's a PITA but worth it because they do make a difference. I wouldn't want to deal with it but I'd say up there AWD with winter tires you could blast through anything. But on the other hand, my FIL says he barely uses 4wd on his truck and I know he uses winter tires.
Old 01-16-19 | 06:14 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
For MY purposes, at the time, they were unnecessary. I made that clear, and I was not wrong. It was my car, my driving conditions and my experience....exactly as I told it. Yours (and Jill's) experiences were apparently something else. Fine...I respect that. Respect mine.
I can understand what you are saying. Yes, for mild snow experiences, having awd with all season tires is satisfactory. It still is not superior compared to AWD with snow tires. For a serious snow storm, I would personally rather drive our Matrix with snows than my 4Runner with all seasons. Of course my opinion would be different if I had snows on my 4Runner.
Old 01-16-19 | 06:30 PM
  #63  
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Well aside from the discussion about who said what and maybe people express themselves sometimes without context, ie. their local conditions and experiences; winter driving is something that drivers learn through experience. Much of this is now negated by a modern vehicle's superb engineering and safety aids. And that is something that is a common among AWD/FWD and RWD vehicles. RWD in sedan form though, is now a luxury feature except for pickups and real SUVs.

Smart drivers don't care about what technology is underneath their car. They drive the car for the way it's set up. So a FWD motorist learns how the car handles and learns what all season tires do vs dedicated winter tires. A RWD motorist figures out how that type of setup works and compensates for the fact that there are all seasons in that car vs winters.

The vast majority of drivers in the USA and Canada use FWD/AWD tech on car-based crossover utilities using all season tires. This is not a coincidence. This is about practicality and affordibility. Today's traction and stability control system help a lot of stupid drivers get away with a lot of stupid stuff. If you asked a driver in N. Minnesota what tech works, you would have a different answer to what's being said in this thread. Just like the OP says he favors RWD in an LS. Would SW have you believe the same thing in the deep winter states of the US? Probably not.

And mmarshall is correct. His Subaru was the perfect car for those conditions. Too bad Subaru never quite got its head gasket problems sorted out. Those Legacy Outbacks were near unstoppable no matter what tires they were using.

Last edited by MattyG; 01-16-19 at 06:34 PM.
Old 01-16-19 | 06:37 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill


I can understand what you are saying. Yes, for mild snow experiences, having awd with all season tires is satisfactory. It still is not superior compared to AWD with snow tires. For a serious snow storm, I would personally rather drive our Matrix with snows than my 4Runner with all seasons. Of course my opinion would be different if I had snows on my 4Runner.

I got through even serious stuff with my AWD Outback and all-seasons, but I certainly respect the fact that other people may not have had the same experience. I am also very cautious and conservative in my driving habits, especially on slick surfaces. I also learned to drive back in the late 60s when, if you didn't have studded tires, a rear-engined VW, a FWD Olds Toronado or Cadillac Eldorado, driving on snow, even with winter tires, could be a problem. Those cautious driving habits stuck with me all of my life, even in the world today of crossovers, FWD/AWD, electronic traction aids, and, of course, much better tires.

Speaking of Outbacks, BTW, talk about a co-incidence. I got a phone call this evening from an old ex-co-worker (who I had car-shopped with years before, before he and I retired). He has since moved to Morgantown, WV.....a mountainous and snowy area (had a house built for him there). He told me he was ready for a new 3.6R Outback, was working out a deal on the phone/Internet with a Subaru shop north of there in PA, and he had some questions for me on the nature of Subaru's flat-design engines and CVTs. He sounded like he's going to finish the deal at the dealership tomorrow , so please join me in wishing him luck (his name's Kevin). IMO, among everyday mass-produced cars/crossovers, there's simply nothing like an Outback in the snow.......that's why the U.S. Ski team uses them.

One nice thing about the 3.6R Outbacks, of course, is that they generally avoid the notorious head-gasket problems of the 2.5L non-turbo versions, and the newer early oil-consumption problems (from weak piston-rings) of the 2.0L and 2.5L Subarus. I avoided the head-gasket problems on my 2006 Outback, but I didn't have an extreme number of miles on it when I sold it, and I did have some reliability problems in other areas, such as the engine cooling-fans.

Last edited by mmarshall; 01-16-19 at 06:43 PM.
Old 01-16-19 | 06:50 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by MattyG

And mmarshall is correct. His Subaru was the perfect car for those conditions. Too bad Subaru never quite got its head gasket problems sorted out. Those Legacy Outbacks were near unstoppable no matter what tires they were using.
But it’s not just about being unstoppable. It’s about being safe and stable on roads. As was already discussed, snow tires help you stop quicker and provides better cornering. Snow tires add extra grip, all seasons do not and awd does not compensate for lack of this extra grip.

Last edited by Toys4RJill; 01-16-19 at 06:54 PM.
Old 01-16-19 | 06:57 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by LexsCTJill
But it’s not just about being unstoppable. It’s about being safe and stable on roads. As was already discussed, snow tires help you stop quicker and provides better cornering. Snow tires add extra grip, all seasons do not and awd does not compensate for lack of this extra grip.
You're preaching to the choir sister, preaching to the choir. But what works for you and I is not the gospel. Since I have first hand experience working at a Subaru/Volvo dealership way back in the day and drove a AWD Outback and also a Volvo V70 AWD, both with all season in W. Canada's winter belt - I can say Subies have a great AWD system including the one that mmarshall is talking about. Doesn't mean I don't use winter tires.
Old 01-16-19 | 06:59 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by MattyG
You're preaching to the choir sister, preaching to the choir. But what works for you and I is not the gospel. Since I have first hand experience working at a Subaru/Volvo dealership way back in the day and drove a AWD Outback and also a Volvo V70 AWD, both with all season in W. Canada's winter belt - I can say Subies have a great AWD system including the one that mmarshall is talking about. Doesn't mean I don't use winter tires.
Nobody disputed the awd system of Subaru. Snow tires stop quicker than all seasons and provide added grip. The Subaru awd system not matter how great it is will not make a car stop faster or grip better in snow compared to a car that has snow tires and no awd.

Last edited by Toys4RJill; 01-16-19 at 07:40 PM.
Old 01-17-19 | 07:36 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
Never mind racing slicks. Just try and go anywhere in the snow with a Corvette or Dodge Viper LOL.
My daily driver is RWD and makes more torque than a C7 Corvette, but not quite as much as a Viper. It is an absolute BEAST in the snow, thanks to a good set of Blizzaks. Dramatically better than either our RX350 or Murano (both AWD), or my dad's old Subaru (which was totaled in a snowstorm ) on very highly rated Michelin All-Seasons. Last week I traded cars with my wife for a day, and she had to drive home from work (23 miles) in an ice storm. I asked her how the drive home was, and she was almost confused. "Why? It was fine. Everybody else was stupid and all over the road, but I had no issues." Then she connected the dots.

The wife's new Q7 is also rolling on Blizzaks, and is absolutely unflappable. Aside from my father-in-law's Murano, which gets driven <300 miles/month, we'll never again own a vehicle--regardless of drive system--without two complete sets of wheels/tires. Unless of course, we move somewhere where they're no longer necessary.

As Och mentioned, the core problem with the Corvette and Viper is that they come from the factory with very wide Summer Max Performance tires. I have these for my daily driver as well. They are absolutely amazing when ambient temperature is above 40F. But they are positively lethal in freezing conditions with snow or ice on the road.
Old 01-17-19 | 07:45 AM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by geko29
As Och mentioned, the core problem with the Corvette and Viper is that they come from the factory with very wide Summer Max Performance tires. I have these for my daily driver as well. They are absolutely amazing when ambient temperature is above 40F. But they are positively lethal in freezing conditions with snow or ice on the road.
Yes, that's part of it. Some of those tires actually have disclaimers with them, warning of short tread life and/or poor wet/snow traction. But, yes, on dry pavement at warmer temperatures, they are like being on railroad tracks.....grip is phenomenal. That's why they are often referred to as "Summer Only" tires....though, as you note, they can be used even at moderately cold temperatures as long as the road is dry or just damp.

or my dad's old Subaru (which was totaled in a snowstorm )
Sorry to hear that. Did somebody run into it? The best snow car, the best tires, or the best driving, sometimes does little good if other drivers around you are careless or are trying to drive in conditions for which they or their vehicles are not prepared.

My daily driver is RWD and makes more torque than a C7 Corvette
....and what might that be, a Dodge with one of those Super-Hemis? You might (?) have mentioned it in another thread, but I don't remember.

Last edited by mmarshall; 01-17-19 at 07:54 AM.
Old 01-17-19 | 08:03 AM
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Originally Posted by mmarshall
Sorry to hear that. Did somebody run into it? The best snow car, the best tires, or the best driving, sometimes does little good if other drivers around you are careless or are trying to drive in conditions for which they or their vehicles are not prepared.
Nope, he was unable to stop and plowed into the car in front of him. Very safe, conservative driver, never aggressive by any means, so I'm sure he was driving below the speed limit and with a seemingly safe following distance. This was his first at-fault accident in over 60 years and god knows how many miles (probably close to a million), out of 3 total accidents over that span. Tires--which were ~2 years old--just didn't get it done. Both of their cars now have two full sets of tires. After (at my urging) experiencing winter tires on my mom's RWD Hyundai Genesis 3.8, he immediately went out that fall and got a set for his Mazda 3.

Originally Posted by mmarshall
....and what might that be, a Dodge with one of those Super-Hemis? You might (?) have mentioned it in another thread, but I don't remember.
In my sig. BMW 335d with a fairly aggressive chiptune. Puts out right around 500 lbft of torque at the crank, 425-ish at the wheels, and still averages 29mpg.

Last edited by geko29; 01-17-19 at 08:07 AM.
Old 01-17-19 | 08:07 AM
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It's kind of funny that we debate on whether snow tires are of any benefit, as if one tire can fit all. Ever drive a summer tire on dry pavement, at 10F? I have. They are slick. But at 70F? They are awesome. Also, on one car I have Xice Xi3's. They are so noisy and make such a loud howling noise on dry pavement, I thought I had a problem with the rear diff as I had only owned the LS for 1 mo. before I put them on.

When I fly into Montréal, every rental car has 4 snows. Even a Chrysler 300S with low pro 20's. imho the only possible argument against 4 snows is cost.

There are reasons why a person would not want AWD, especially below a certain HP threshold. I wouldn't want an AWD Corvette, but I would want a AWD 911.
Old 01-17-19 | 08:11 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by geko29
But they are positively lethal in freezing conditions with snow or ice on the road.
I learned that with the RE050A's that came with my car, they are like hockey pucks < 20F (did I mention I picked some up at Crappy Tire 2 weeks ago for like $1.10 USD!!). I've done 25F with my PSS but am very careful. We're talking about dry pavement--with precipitation, who knows, never happened to me.

I can also tell you that my RWD LS430 got caught earlier this year in 2" with all seasons because I put the snows on late. It got stuck on a side road.
Old 01-17-19 | 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by geko29
In my sig. BMW 335d with a fairly aggressive chiptune. Puts out right around 500 lbft of torque at the crank, 425-ish at the wheels, and still averages 29mpg.
Yeah, I'd forgotten how much torque those BMW and Mercedes Bluetec diesels can put out at low RPMs. I was quite impressed with the last one I sampled, though it was at least several years ago....aside from the torque, hard to tell from a comparable gas engine. The down side is that they need the periodic urea-solutions...but that is usually only about once every 10K miles or so.
Old 01-17-19 | 08:34 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by Johnhav430
imho the only possible argument against 4 snows is cost.
In most cases, it's just up-front cost, as the long-term running costs are about the same, or in some cases lower. Remember every mile that goes on your winter tires doesn't go on your summer or AS set. To use my wife's car as an example, her factory 21" tires are $388 each, for a total of $1,688 including tax, before installation. A set of Blizzak DM-V2s mounted and balanced on a brand-new set of 19" wheels was $1,712 including tax, delivered to my house, so essentially the exact same price. Future sets will be dramatically cheaper, and we will go longer between replacements on the larger tires. In my case, my winters cost literally half of what my Pilot SuperSports do, and have a dramatically longer treadlife. So I save a ton of money by changing them out for 4-5 months of the year.

For "normals" like my parents, costs are probably about the same, all things considered.

Originally Posted by mmarshall
Yeah, I'd forgotten how much torque those BMW and Mercedes Bluetec diesels can put out at low RPMs. I was quite impressed with the last one I sampled, though it was at least several years ago....aside from the torque, hard to tell from a comparable gas engine. The down side is that they need the periodic urea-solutions...but that is usually only about once every 10K miles or so.
Yep, mine is actually due, at "387 miles to no start" this morning (starts at 999 miles). But it's only $12 for 2.5 gallons, I'll just fill the tank when I change my oil this weekend. It's supposed to last the full Oil-change interval (about 13.5k miles on my car), but consumption is fixed at 2% of fuel usage. Since the tune works by injecting more fuel than the factory tune would, I empty the DEF tank a little quicker, right around 9-10k miles. Not a big deal either way.

Last edited by geko29; 01-17-19 at 08:39 AM.
Old 01-17-19 | 08:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Johnhav430
It's kind of funny that we debate on whether snow tires are of any benefit, as if one tire can fit all. Ever drive a summer tire on dry pavement, at 10F? I have. They are slick. But at 70F? They are awesome. Also, on one car I have Xice Xi3's. They are so noisy and make such a loud howling noise on dry pavement, I thought I had a problem with the rear diff as I had only owned the LS for 1 mo. before I put them on.

When I fly into Montréal, every rental car has 4 snows. Even a Chrysler 300S with low pro 20's. imho the only possible argument against 4 snows is cost.

There are reasons why a person would not want AWD, especially below a certain HP threshold. I wouldn't want an AWD Corvette, but I would want a AWD 911.
I believe snow tires are required in Quebec. I guess they do make a difference.*



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