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Yes, and I think in the future there is going to be a new set of vehicles in between a current sedan and a current cross-over, kinda like the new UX which is really a car just elevated a little.I think we will see Camry and Accord move to this type of design.
Jill says she thinks midsize sedans will move to CH-R/UX design which is just elevated a little.
I was thinking that way too.
In fact, over the past 50 years, sedans have been incrementally getting taller and bigger over each generation.
That's why this current Subaru Legacy in this thread is 59" tall, which is 1" taller than the outgoing Camry & Accord.
I thought that would be great.
Especially to house future battery packs under the floor!
However, current Camry and Accord have essentially gone reverse and dropped 1" down to just 57" as Mike pointed out. Sales of both lower roofline Camries and Accords have plummeted - though no where near as badly as sales of 1" lower front mid-engined 5LS.
I guess the lowered roofline is even worse when it is combined with swoopy curvaceous styling.
Like Jill says, it will be interesting to see if Camry and Accord does an about-face, and goes back to being a little taller like this Subaru Legacy @ 59", and the CH-R/UX crossovers.
The Camry has done an about-face with ride comfort and refinement, so I don't see why it can't do an about-face with a taller and more practical interior.
Decided to go look at Subaru’s last month sales... 3K legacys for the month not bad, but only Forrester and Outback increased YoY, with the new Ascent on fire to make the total number bigger than last year as everything else fades.
Decided to go look at Subaru’s last month sales... 3K legacys for the month not bad, but only Forrester and Outback increased YoY, with the new Ascent on fire to make the total number bigger than last year as everything else fades.
The Legacy is still down. While cross overs are up.
I'll agree that, right now, it's somewhat of a niche, but it is also a great bargain. That's lot of vehicle for 23K.
I still think you underestimate that facts that Americans prefer cross overs to sedans. The sedan segment is continuing to shrink. Most specifically midsize and large sedans.
I still think you underestimate that facts that Americans prefer cross overs to sedans. The sedan segment is continuing to shrink. Most specifically midsize and large sedans.
That's not what I was saying, though....you're comparing apples and oranges. I said the Legacy was bargain-priced, either way......crossovers or no crossovers.
And, for my friend, that's important, because, while she is not poor, she clearly doesn't have the income or resources that I do. She can't afford to waste money, although she had no problem meeting the lease payments in the past.
BTW, when I share my shopping, test-driving, or advising experiences on CL, one reason why I don't use names when mentioning many of those I shop with or advise is simple privacy reasons....they would not necessarily want their personal business all over the Internet or in forums.
That's not what I was saying, though....you're comparing apples and oranges. I said the Legacy was bargain-priced, either way......crossovers or no crossovers..
so do you agree consumers find smaller cross overs a better buy than mid size sedans? In this case, despite the Legacy being a bargain, people must find outback’s etc to be better.
so do you agree consumers find smaller cross overs a better buy than mid size sedans? In this case, despite the Legacy being a bargain, people must find outback’s etc to be better.
No question the Outback is more versatile. I owned one myself. But they also start at 26-27K....4-5K more than a Legacy. Also, it is not what I want, but what she wants....and she doesn't like crossovers. I know it's hard for some to believe, but there are still people who prefer traditional sedans...that is a fact.
Ride quality, something that is VERY important in my book, and reasonably important in hers, was not bad at all (Subarus are known for good suspension engineering), and the standard 55-series tires on the base Legacy model have a decent amount of give, in the sidewalls, over bumps and pothole-impact protection for the wheel-rims.
According to CR, ride is the best feature about the Legacy.
Residential home ceiling heights are getting higher and higher; from 8 feet, to 9 feet, to 10 feet.
Likewise, motor vehicle heights are getting higher, and consumers presently taking a liking to taller motor vehicles.
This is true and we must accept this.
However, we can't quite say that consumers prefer smaller crossovers over bigger sedans - just like that.
Because, while it is true that in 2017 and 2018, the RAV4 tall compact crossover outsold the Camry medsize sedan - notice how in 2017 and 2018, the CH-R subcompact tall crossover undersold the Corolla sedan?
Thus the booming popularity of the tall wagons are a little inconsistent at the moment.
The 2017 & 2018 superior sales of RAV4 may well be due to the all new 2017-23 Camry which is now 1" lower just like the disastrous all new 2018-25 5LS.
Point is, sedan poor sales are not necessarily due to rise in popularity of tall wagon, but sedan poor sales can also be due to poor product on its own like certain Ford models, and the all new Lexus 5LS.
The lower roofline height of the Camry and the all new Corolla sedan, both with more compact interiors than their predecessors - is not a good sign IMO.
Note that I sometimes compare smaller but taller crossovers to bigger sedans, like CH-R to Corolla, and RAV4 to Camry - because the taller and bigger engined crossovers often have similar price to the larger hatch/sedans.
It is easy for home ceiling heights to increase by 1 or 2 feet because houses are static structures, but because motor vehicles are dynamic and in motion, extra height, weight and larger and heavier rolling diameter wheels & tires adversely affect the functionality of motor vehicles.
Some people pretend that the tall wagons drive just as quickly, economically, comfortably and quietly as their sedan counterparts.
This is far from the truth.
We cannot defy the laws of physics!
Life is often a compromize.
Forget the low coupes, but presently it is the medium height sedans that deliver the best combination of: performance, braking, economy, handling, ride and refinement.
For example, a 2012-18 Lexus ES vs 2016-22 Lexus RX?
The 6ES sedan is quicker, superior braking, more economical, vastly better handling, more comfortable riding, and much quieter than the RX on the same platform!
To pretend that 2016-22 4RX is mechanically equal to a 2012-18 6ES on the same platform is being hideous.
Consumers have the freedom to follow the Me Too Movement all they like, however the basic laws of physics still stand.
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Good post, peteharvey. All else equal, a lower center of gravity usually does mean better handling (and less body roll) than higher-stance vehicles. With the ES, though, ride quality depends on the tires.....I was not impressed at all with the optional 45s. The Avalon I sampled (done on the same ES platform), with taller-sidewall 55s, was noticeably smoother and quieter.
06-10-19, 03:22 PM
All else equal, a lower center of gravity usually does mean better handling (and less body roll) than higher-stance vehicles. With the ES, though, ride quality depends on the tires.....I was not impressed at all with the optional 45s. The Avalon I sampled (done on the same ES platform), with taller-sidewall 55s, was noticeably smoother and quieter.