Vladi

It's never that simple but if we have to simplify it, it would sound like this: Toyota has stalled and it's waiting for a market to sway in either direction properly. Instead of investing into pretty much everything they are not investing in anything waiting for the firm direction.

This is no problem for mainstream Toyota as much as it is for Lexus. Toyota can wait for another 10 years without offering new engine, transmission or whatever and see only sustainable decline in sales but Lexus doesn't have that comfort. Lexus is already in free fall and it will only get worse, reality check will hit within five years when whole Lexus lineup will be Acura like made out of Toyota products with different pants, loosing to Audi in sales numbers as well right in middle of US of A. Whole RWD program went to crap, they don't have engines nor driver technology to pair the BMW and MB but above everything they simply cannot market RWD products right because it's a lot easier to sell Toyota counterparts. Lexus is in serious problem and they can't wait for market to shift like yesterday so they can be competitive again cause RWD ICE game is lost right now. Lexus Hybrid is not enough for market push as electrical components haven't been substantially improved in over a decade, all the big improvements came from mechanical parts of equation.

spwolf

but they are investing in new technologies, are leaders in hybrid field by factor of 20x and are investing billions in automated driving (and have most deployed auto brake systems in the world, at highest performance) and their sales are... growing, in fact for first 4 months they are #1 manufacturer in the world.

jadu

iTrader: (42)

toyota is smart af and Im sure they're sitting on a pile of cash, and bought back their own stock. im sure they read the same gloom and doom stock market articles, economic downturn, possible auto industry bubble, and know how fast technology becomes obsolete yada yada yada. Technological companies are nothing without their partnerships with OEMs, distributors, and suppliers. Do you know how many lines of source code are in Toyota/Lexus cars lol? Apple and Samsung make great products with Qualcomm IC's. If the partnership yields a great platform, I'm all for it. Consumers could care less about the engineers that worked on it. So far, testing of the new Supra has been going well. I'm glad they brought back production of Supra parts as they didnt alienate their cult following-I give them that. just my .02c..

peteharvey

I totally agree.
If I was TMC CEO, I would do the same thing.
Investing into eight (8) different drive train systems including: gasoline, diesels, turbos, hybrids, plug-ins, hydrogen, lithium ion and solid state batteries - is a huge drain on development and production costs.

I am not a biased Lexus fanboy trying to sell Toyota Motor Corp products, but I must agree with spwolf that both Toyota and Lexus sales are generally doing fine.
Nowadays, the RX is America's biggest selling luxury motor vehicle.

RNM GS3

Thats less than 10% of overall sales and on declining trend.

As mentioned before majority of sales are fleet related- either to local government (NYC has a ton) or car service/taxis.

Also they have not improved Hybrid tech or expanded Prius line.

Toyota/Lexus is fine financially but if you are a fan/supporter of the company its been quiet depressing over last decade. The competition from Korea and Germany has definitely provided more inspiring products that have relegated Toyota to fleet sales and Lexus to value luxury brand.

They really have not done anything to advance the automotive landscape from performance or technology standpoint. In fact they are lacking considerably in both.

But at least they are extremely profitable and sitting on pile of cash. Its just they are capable of so much more. The A90 Supra is another example of them selling out and not striving for greatness. Thats why i give Tesla respect- they are motivated by innovation rather than bottom line.

situman

I agree 100000%. I've been saying the same thing over at the updated RX, LC convertible and some other thread. All I got was that the RX is a best seller, I'm just starting arguments, no one takes me seriously and yada yada yada. I'm glad someone here is objective as well instead of blind loyalty.

Don't get me wrong, I love Lexus and want them to do well, but with all the resources at their disposal, the might of Toyota behind them and the CEO himself personally overlooking the brand, it should be better.

peteharvey

I think TMC produces over 10 million units/year?
So that would make hybrids 15 to 20% of overall sales at best.
True that mostly fleet buyers.
Even more true that most of their hybrids sold in their domestic market of Japan.

TMC has 186 billion dollars, Daimler AG only 75 billion, and Tesla only 4.5 billion dollars in equity.
It wouldn't hurt TMC to invest 1 billion dollars in a 5GS, and still be left with 185 billion dollars.

I guess like Vladi says, the want the market to cut down on the number of drivelines, and then focus and invest in those technologies - rather than waste money on small capacity turbos and plug-ins which will hit a dead end soon.

TMC is certainly selling reasonably well, and sitting on the biggest stockpile of cash.
However, just because RX is US's biggest selling luxury motor vehicle doesn't mean it's a good motor vehicle, let alone the best.

I've test driven every generation of Lexus RX, and I've not been happy with the ride quality of any of them.
I feel that the unsprung weight is too high, and the latest RX is too firmly damped, and the tires too low profile, firm riding and noisy.
Next time I service my car, I'll have another RX loaner to test drive for Mike, but previously, I find the RX's ride quality second rate compared to a sedan.
I actually find my friend's 2012 Mercedes ML much more comfortable riding than the RX.

spwolf

actually Toyota hybrid sales are up 44% in USA in May 2019... but please continue.

And of course they improved the tech, that is why they sold 11k Rav4s in May which is 30% of sales - and thats only because they arent any on dealer lots.

spwolf

20% this year and more next... this is mostly because in 3rd world countries hybrids dont sell well... as to the Japan, actually Western Europe is highest percentage wise and China is also very big for TMC hybrids. Hybrids are pretty expensive, they are not really fleet cars - sure few taxies in US but that is far from majority.

I wonder how can 1.6m> 2m worldwide and 44% increase in sales in May 2019 be a "declining" trend.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

and that’s all rav4 hybrid. Nice one toyota! Prius dropped about same amount corolla hybrid added.

Not just tech, i think the bigger factor is hybrid rav4 is only $800 more than reg awd rav4.

nicedude

Why the BMW stan talking down on Toyota/Lexus when BMW has made nothing comparable to the LFA in its existence. You want the best from Toyota, you have to pay up. You want no steering feel M specials, BMW has plenty of those to choose from. The best BMW currently out is the Zupra. Remember, it took Toyota's help to get the Zupra to beat a base Cayman.

It has actually been more depressing to see BMW's fall from grace. From "Car and Driver's Ten Best, 22 years in a row" to "Genesis G70, Car of the Year and what we wish the new 3 Series is."

With that said, Toyota could do much better with all that money.

Toys4RJill

Until just recently, BMW has done pretty good the last while. I think too many people live in the past compared to what BMW is trying to do today.

mmarshall

And is a reason for that. Newer is not always better. Did you ever get a chance to drive a last-generation 3-series.....particularly the 335i, with the older suspension and hydraulic power steering? If so, you are not likely to forget it. The road-feel was so telepathic that you could virtually steer the car blindfolded, and the suspension, even with the sport-package 35-series tires, gave a virtually perfect combination of ride-comfort and control. They didn't call these cars the Ultimate Driving Machines for nothing. I would have bought an X-drive (AWD) version of the 335i myself, even at 45-50K, had the reliability been better. But there were too many horror stories of breakdowns, fuel-pump failures, being stranded, and having to deal with smooth dealerships. So, if the new 335 is more reliable, that may be one case of where newer is better.



IMO, t​​​​he main thing Toyota needs to do with their money, right now, is to start designing vehicles with less-polarizing styling and better materials inside, especially in base versions. The latest Prius, the C-HR, and the now-discontinued Nissan Juke, all look like something out of a circus.

And I understand the desire to save weight for performance and fuel-economy reasons, but cardboard-like materials inside are not necessarily the best answer.

peteharvey

Perhaps TMC @ $186 billion dollars is trying to keep their distance from VW AG @ $132 billion dollars in equity [assets less liabilities]?

The 2003-10 E60 5 Series and the 2005-12 E90 3 Series - were the very last of the sharp handling BMW sedans with quick changes in direction - mainly due to their smaller size, hence lower polar moment of inertia; while the hydraulic power steering gave better feel/communication of road grip compared to the first generation electric power steering systems.

spwolf

that is part of the tech too... new ones are cheaper to produce. But also it gets a lot better mpg than before, it is more refined and faster. A win-win.