lexus now has 11 models: 5 utes (ux, nx, rx, gx, lx), 4 sedans (es, is, gs, ls), 2 coupes (rc, lc)
bmw has 17 models: x1-7, 2-8, z4, i3, i8 (more if you consider m cars as separate)
mercedes has 23 models: 5 sedans, 7 coupes (!), 8 utes, 2 roadsters, and 1 electric suv

lexus does really well in battle with a much smaller 'army'.

 

I don't think they gave up. They just misjudged customer loyalty. They thought they could redesign the LS for a completely different buyer and that their loyal customer base would just buy it because it's a Lexus LS. They were wrong. They redesigned themselves into the A8/Jaguar sales level market.

This car should have never been the new LS. If anything, it should have been scaled down a little and replaced the GS. Still not sure it would have been successful or not, but it would have had a better chance in that market than it does the high end luxury sedan market. 357 is below the average for the last 6 full sales months of the 460. That's beyond terrible. Lexus sales executives have to be freaking out. With sales at about 45% of expectations, they can't be happy, and I'm not sure what their options are.

 

If there is an emergency refresh coming out for the LS, the designers would have had to have realized their miscalculation over two years ago. The best they'll do now is a restlyed LS500 v. 2.0 in 2021/2022.

They'll have to get rid of the spindle or walk it back big time, clean up the messy rear window/C pillar nonsense and get that frumpy rear end cleaned up too. Inside, they'll have to redo the dash entirely. And yes, they should be looking at getting the LC 500's V8 in there. Even then, it's not going to change the fact that the LS is larger outside and yet smaller inside than its predecessor.

 

I agree. But I think that is what has killed the LS. Take the Mercedes Benz S Class. The regular S560 is an uncompromising, unapologetic luxury sedan. 6 variations of just the regular S Class. Then they have the S Class coupe. 3 variation of that.

Looks like Lexus tried to shove that into the LS500 and LS500 F-Sport. New buyers at this price point want options and not compromises.

 

Yeah, they are stuck. Nothing short of a complete redesign will fix it, and I'm not sure the current leadership has it in them to do what it will take, just to get back to being competitive. I have no faith that they are willing to commit the kind of money it would take the be the segment leader again. I think they would rather focus on cranking out ESs and RXs in huge numbers than lead in the big luxury sedan market. They want to be a premium Toyota brand instead of a full line luxury brand.

 

I agree. They have lost focus on true luxury

 

LS is the best designed sedan they have right now look wise. Very few things wrong with it aesthetically, it's attractive. Problem comes from the compromise the exterior design has introduced in the cabin. Not that it's only very unconventional flagship Lexus but it also fails in the whole flagship segment when it comes to headroom, legroom, technology, etc. Heck even backseat screen graphics didn't get fine attention and that's probably the easiest thing to fix. In my opinion that backseat controls should have been a combination of hardware ***** and buttons and the screen, something like Ranger Rover.

 

are we going back to 2012 really? I bet both of us were here when there was prediction that Hyundai will topple Toyota back then... instead Hyundai and KIA have had years of bad sales due to quality issues. With additions of new models, their sales will go up.

Also out of luxury brands, only Lexus and BMW are growing this year. Lexus 1.3%, BMW 2% while MB dropped 7.3% and Audi dropped 6%. Are they dead brands that are going to quit luxury market now, did MB lose touch with true luxury? j/k

Japanese generally have lower incentives than other brands, so it is not all in the pure volume... TMC has to be profitable in NA, they are already largest manufacturer in the world for 2019.

 

@bitkahuna together with incentive chart, comes latest BMW news:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/struggl...es-11562327075

or this one:

https://www.ft.com/content/09bd4394-...c-6eeb837566c5

 

i certainly wasn’t implying nor did i say hyundai is going to topple toyota! No chance any time soon, if ever! but no, hyundai’s ‘years of bad sales’ (not that i’m aware they’ve been that bad except for next part i’m going to explain) are not due to quality, they were due to an over-reliance on sedans and not suvs.

To quote you, “With additions of new models, their sales will go up.” - UX has padded lexus sales nicely. New ES brought some rebound, but that’s about it.

i know you’re kidding, but obviously no.

No doubt toyota is a money making machine. As my ‘strategy’ thread pointed out, they appear to have focused on common platforms, manufacturing efficiency, and doing the BARE MINIMUM to remain competitive and a leader. This makes for great financials but a pretty boring company to watch.

[QUOTE=spwolf;10558295]@bitkahuna together with incentive chart, comes latest BMW news:
or this one:
[/QUOTE]

Yup bmw’s been clobbered lately... i think to a huge extent, TESLA has clobbered them as the ‘it’ car to have. In europe diesel sales are dropping like a rock. In the u.s. the genesis g70 has also likely jabbed in 3/4 series sales.

 

LC sales so far in U.S.:

2017 - 2,487
2018 - 1,979
2019 - 668 YTD - Jan thru June, my projection 1,500 (Not sure what Lexus has projected sales of LC)
Total = 5,134

8 Series sales since inception in U.S.:

2018 - 223
2019 - 1,522 YTD - Jan thru June
Total = 1,745

Lexus will bring us a convertible LC but that wouldn't add too much to sales. The LC F (bring us LC F and LC F convertible) needs to come sooner than later. The 8 Series is gonna do very well...

 

Indeed it will do very well. Standard twin turbo V8 power for not much more than the LC and if you can afford cars in the $100k arena, that extra $10-$20k wouldnt matter anyways.

 

https://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/20...lc-high-hopes/

Can A Truly Expensive Upstart Sports Car Sell Well In 2017? Lexus Has Very High Hopes For The New LC

By Timothy Cain on March 13, 2017


Lexus has lofty goals for the new LC performance coupe, a 2-car range encompassing V8 and V6 hybrid cars. The Lexus LC, Toyota’s premium division hopes, will attract 400 buyers in America per month.

That’s a big number.

Granted, Toyota sells more than 1,000 Camrys in the United States every day. In fact, Lexus sells 300 copies of the RX, America’s all-conquering premium utility vehicle, every day.

But the 2018 Lexus LC is not America’s best-selling midsize car 15 years running, nor is the LC the dominant luxury crossover in a market gone gaga for luxury crossovers. The Lexus LC, on the other hand, is a $92,995–106,295 Japanese coupe. 400 monthly sales for a 2-door priced in that stratosphere is truly a big number.

And Lexus believes it will outsell the Jaguar F-Type, Porsche Cayman, Mercedes-Benz SLC, and Audi TT. Lexus believes the LC will sell roughly 3 times more often than the Nissan GT-R ever has. Lexus intends to attract more buyers with the LC than Mercedes-Benz can with The Establishment, the SL-Class; more buyers than BMW attracts with the vast BMW 6 Series range.

Why? Lexus certainly has its reasons.

Time and time again, we attempt to obtain a fairly accurate portrayal of an automaker’s hopes and dreams for an all-new product and come up empty. “We don’t discuss future products,” they’ll say. “That information is for internal purposes only,” the official party line will read. “We can’t comment on company forecasts.”



When it come to the Lexus LC, however, Lexus is keen to share. Described by Nancy Hubbell, senior communications manager at Lexus, there are essentially three reasons behind the company’s aspirations for the LC: inner belief, the LF-LC Concept’s relationship to the production car, and the clinics.

“The 400 per-month sales goal for the LC was determined by numerous factors that reflect the strength of the LC and the Lexus brand,” Hubbell told TTAC, voicing the faith Lexus has in a new product precisely because it’s a Lexus in Lexus’ biggest market. 49% of all Lexus vehicles sold globally are sold in the United States, where Lexus competes with Mercedes-Benz and BMW to lead all premium auto brands in sales.

“Our confidence started with the tremendous response to the LF-LC show car that debuted at the Detroit Auto Show in 2012,” Hubbell continues. “The styling was hailed by consumers and was carried over to the production car.”

Indeed, while we consistently have reason to complain that show cars don’t translate to production cars nearly as faithfully as they ought to, the Lexus LC500 and LC500h are accurate representations of the Lexus LF-LC Concept from 2012’s North American International Auto Show in Detroit.

We certainly know Lexus was excited about the LF-LC Concept in 2012. “You know, the 1st time I saw this car, I was speechless,” Lexus division manager Mark Templin said at the time.

Conversations with actual well-heeled performance coupe customers, however, have enabled Lexus to talk so excitedly about the LC’s potential.

“We held a dynamic clinic early last year and the feedback from customers was clear that the LC will be strong player in the luxury coupe market,” Hubbell says. On this basis, Lexus doesn’t merely intend to steal buyers from the 6 Series, SL-Class, and F-Type, but Hubbell says the LC will earn “some consideration from Aston Martin and Maserati customers,” as well.



Regardless of whether Lexus sells 200, 300, or 400 LCs per month, 1 high-dollar sports car will continue to stand head and shoulders above the rest. That’s a given. Even in 2016, when Porsche’s U.S. 911 volume fell to a 4-year low, Porsche was selling nearly twice as many 911s per month as Lexus plans to sell LCs. The 911 operates on a different plane. Disrupting the 911’s momentum isn’t worthy of consideration.

But Lexus has production capacity to build up to 500 LCs per month for the U.S. market, if necessary. 80-90% of U.S. buyers are likely to opt for the naturally aspirated LC500 — 5.0-liter V8, 471-horsepower, 10-speed automatic — rather than the more costly and portly hybrid.

Both the LC500 and LC500h go on sale in the U.S. in May.

 

Those "well-heeled performance coupe customers" were just being nice. If they are driving European, they will continue to drive European, esp at the LC's price point. Not to mention, whatever coupes those well-heeled customers has, most likely already outperforms the LC. And with BMW just joining the market with standard TT V8 power, it just makes the LC feel really old and tired. The current 5L V8 should be the base powerplant, with a TTV8 as an option at around 560hp then the LCF at the top end with close to 700hp if Lexus really intends to compete not just on styling alone.

 

I can imagine a used LC500h in a few years could be a bargain.

either way, the LC is one BEAUTIFUL car.