Is the end of buick cars in the u.s. Near?
07-31-19, 05:35 PM
#16
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Brands come and go and they change all the time. I would be sad if the Buick brand was to go dark. There are not a lot of people who want sedans anymore in the Buick price point, these people want cross-overs which are not sedans, yet they are not SUVs. A Buick Enclave, for close to LaCrosse money is a more sensible and batter yet a more useful purchase than a big hulking sedan. Same powertrain too 
this is in line with 'no true scotsman' fallacy.
Person A: "No Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
Person B: "But my uncle Angus is a Scotsman and he puts sugar on his porridge."
Person A: "But no true Scotsman puts sugar on his porridge."
more at the link.
10-08-19, 08:05 AM
#17
Lexus Fanatic
Brands come and go and they change all the time. I would be sad if the Buick brand was to go dark. There are not a lot of people who want sedans anymore in the Buick price point, these people want cross-overs which are not sedans, yet they are not SUVs. A Buick Enclave, for close to LaCrosse money is a more sensible and batter yet a more useful purchase than a big hulking sedan. Same powertrain too
Not everyone sees a CUV as a more sensible or better more useful purchase then a sedan, most CUV's seat the same amount of people as sedans and offer the same basic room in the trunk, sometimes less, CUV's have the advantage of folding the rear seats down if there are no rear seat passengers for more room, that is about it, so do hatchback cars. Sedans often get better fuel economy, are quicker, and handle better then CUV's, there are trade offs. Who makes "big hulking sedans" these days aside from the Rolls Royce Phantom? Even a Lexus LS is not all that big or heavy compared to the real big hulking vehicles for sale, full sized SUV's like the Tahoe, Escalade, Navigator, Ford Expedition, Nissan Armada, QX80, etc.
10-08-19, 11:36 AM
#18
Lexus Fanatic
You keep making these generality statements about your preferences or what you feel as fact.
Not everyone sees a CUV as a more sensible or better more useful purchase then a sedan, most CUV's seat the same amount of people as sedans and offer the same basic room in the trunk, sometimes less, CUV's have the advantage of folding the rear seats down if there are no rear seat passengers for more room, that is about it, so do hatchback cars. Sedans often get better fuel economy, are quicker, and handle better then CUV's, there are trade offs. Who makes "big hulking sedans" these days aside from the Rolls Royce Phantom? Even a Lexus LS is not all that big or heavy compared to the real big hulking vehicles for sale, full sized SUV's like the Tahoe, Escalade, Navigator, Ford Expedition, Nissan Armada, QX80, etc.
Not everyone sees a CUV as a more sensible or better more useful purchase then a sedan, most CUV's seat the same amount of people as sedans and offer the same basic room in the trunk, sometimes less, CUV's have the advantage of folding the rear seats down if there are no rear seat passengers for more room, that is about it, so do hatchback cars. Sedans often get better fuel economy, are quicker, and handle better then CUV's, there are trade offs. Who makes "big hulking sedans" these days aside from the Rolls Royce Phantom? Even a Lexus LS is not all that big or heavy compared to the real big hulking vehicles for sale, full sized SUV's like the Tahoe, Escalade, Navigator, Ford Expedition, Nissan Armada, QX80, etc.
10-08-19, 11:50 AM
#19
Lexus Champion
You keep making these generality statements about your preferences or what you feel as fact.
Not everyone sees a CUV as a more sensible or better more useful purchase then a sedan, most CUV's seat the same amount of people as sedans and offer the same basic room in the trunk, sometimes less, CUV's have the advantage of folding the rear seats down if there are no rear seat passengers for more room, that is about it, so do hatchback cars. Sedans often get better fuel economy, are quicker, and handle better then CUV's, there are trade offs. Who makes "big hulking sedans" these days aside from the Rolls Royce Phantom? Even a Lexus LS is not all that big or heavy compared to the real big hulking vehicles for sale, full sized SUV's like the Tahoe, Escalade, Navigator, Ford Expedition, Nissan Armada, QX80, etc.
Not everyone sees a CUV as a more sensible or better more useful purchase then a sedan, most CUV's seat the same amount of people as sedans and offer the same basic room in the trunk, sometimes less, CUV's have the advantage of folding the rear seats down if there are no rear seat passengers for more room, that is about it, so do hatchback cars. Sedans often get better fuel economy, are quicker, and handle better then CUV's, there are trade offs. Who makes "big hulking sedans" these days aside from the Rolls Royce Phantom? Even a Lexus LS is not all that big or heavy compared to the real big hulking vehicles for sale, full sized SUV's like the Tahoe, Escalade, Navigator, Ford Expedition, Nissan Armada, QX80, etc.
Lexus LX570 200"
Cadillac Escalade 203.9"
Chevrolet Tahoe 204"
Lexus LS500 206.1"
Mercedes S560 206.9"
BMW 207.4"
Nissan Armada 208.9"
Lincoln Navigator 210"
Ford Expedition 210"
10-08-19, 04:29 PM
#20
Lexus Fanatic
You keep making these generality statements about your preferences or what you feel as fact.
Not everyone sees a CUV as a more sensible or better more useful purchase then a sedan, most CUV's seat the same amount of people as sedans and offer the same basic room in the trunk, sometimes less, CUV's have the advantage of folding the rear seats down if there are no rear seat passengers for more room, that is about it, so do hatchback cars. Sedans often get better fuel economy, are quicker, and handle better then CUV's, there are trade offs.
Not everyone sees a CUV as a more sensible or better more useful purchase then a sedan, most CUV's seat the same amount of people as sedans and offer the same basic room in the trunk, sometimes less, CUV's have the advantage of folding the rear seats down if there are no rear seat passengers for more room, that is about it, so do hatchback cars. Sedans often get better fuel economy, are quicker, and handle better then CUV's, there are trade offs.
I spent a week in a Toyota Camry, and I made a realization. I like LUXURY SEDANS better than CUVs/SUVs, but I no longer like SEDANS better. The Camry was utterly underwhelming. Low, poor visibility, not nice to drive. Not especially refined. If you asked me if I would rather have this vehicle, or say a 2 row crossover? I'd take the crossover. For now, I still prefer my luxury sedan, but I can totally see my tastes evolving there too. There was a time when I would have chosen a rental Camry over a rental Grand Cherokee or Ford Edge or something like that every time, but today I wouldnt.
10-08-19, 08:33 PM
#21
Lexus Fanatic
Gotta go with Steve on this one. Can't beat a full-sized luxury sedan when it comes to comfort, but smaller sedans aren't that impressive to drive (the now-discontinued Verano, in some ways, was one of the rare exceptions). In fact, I actually prefer the Lincoln Corsair (which I've just finished reviewing, working on the write-up) to some small sedans.
10-09-19, 08:56 AM
#22
Lexus Champion
Except that her generality statements seem to be backed up by what buyer behavior is showing. Clearly people are buying crossovers instead of sedans when they go to make a purchase in larger and larger percentages. Thats just a fact, so clearly to more and more people they are a "more sensible or better more useful purchase".
I spent a week in a Toyota Camry, and I made a realization. I like LUXURY SEDANS better than CUVs/SUVs, but I no longer like SEDANS better. The Camry was utterly underwhelming. Low, poor visibility, not nice to drive. Not especially refined. If you asked me if I would rather have this vehicle, or say a 2 row crossover? I'd take the crossover. For now, I still prefer my luxury sedan, but I can totally see my tastes evolving there too. There was a time when I would have chosen a rental Camry over a rental Grand Cherokee or Ford Edge or something like that every time, but today I wouldnt.
I spent a week in a Toyota Camry, and I made a realization. I like LUXURY SEDANS better than CUVs/SUVs, but I no longer like SEDANS better. The Camry was utterly underwhelming. Low, poor visibility, not nice to drive. Not especially refined. If you asked me if I would rather have this vehicle, or say a 2 row crossover? I'd take the crossover. For now, I still prefer my luxury sedan, but I can totally see my tastes evolving there too. There was a time when I would have chosen a rental Camry over a rental Grand Cherokee or Ford Edge or something like that every time, but today I wouldnt.
10-09-19, 09:23 AM
#23
Lexus Fanatic
10-09-19, 10:19 AM
#24
Lexus Test Driver
10-09-19, 10:29 AM
#25
Lexus Fanatic
It stopped rotating when Mary Barra decided to close up six sedan-producing plants and lay off tens of thousands of workers. That's when the UAW decided to hit back....and we may also see UNIFOR hitting back, too 
Although there is no doubt that the Lincoln Corsair was a good move, given some of Ford's recent actions, it will be interesting to see if and the the UAW eventually targets them, too.
Although there is no doubt that the Lincoln Corsair was a good move, given some of Ford's recent actions, it will be interesting to see if and the the UAW eventually targets them, too.
10-09-19, 12:28 PM
#26
Lexus Fanatic
Except that her generality statements seem to be backed up by what buyer behavior is showing. Clearly people are buying crossovers instead of sedans when they go to make a purchase in larger and larger percentages. Thats just a fact, so clearly to more and more people they are a "more sensible or better more useful purchase".
I spent a week in a Toyota Camry, and I made a realization. I like LUXURY SEDANS better than CUVs/SUVs, but I no longer like SEDANS better. The Camry was utterly underwhelming. Low, poor visibility, not nice to drive. Not especially refined. If you asked me if I would rather have this vehicle, or say a 2 row crossover? I'd take the crossover. For now, I still prefer my luxury sedan, but I can totally see my tastes evolving there too. There was a time when I would have chosen a rental Camry over a rental Grand Cherokee or Ford Edge or something like that every time, but today I wouldnt.
I spent a week in a Toyota Camry, and I made a realization. I like LUXURY SEDANS better than CUVs/SUVs, but I no longer like SEDANS better. The Camry was utterly underwhelming. Low, poor visibility, not nice to drive. Not especially refined. If you asked me if I would rather have this vehicle, or say a 2 row crossover? I'd take the crossover. For now, I still prefer my luxury sedan, but I can totally see my tastes evolving there too. There was a time when I would have chosen a rental Camry over a rental Grand Cherokee or Ford Edge or something like that every time, but today I wouldnt.
Your experience with the Camry is similar to mine, I never liked them, when I had them as rentals I never cared for them, extremely boring, felt chintzy and dull on the inside, couldn't wait to get back to my car even when I had a Mitsubishi Eclipse. The new one does look chintzy on the inside too, I don't like it. That doesn't mean all family sedans are as boring and dull as Camry's, I think if you had a Accord Sport/Touring you would have liked it and felt totally different, they are much nicer, nicer interior, drive/handle better, look better.
I recently had a new RX350 as a loaner and I did not like it, interior had noticeable cost cutting, engine was pretty thrashy/loud in a bad way, had one of the weakest "300hp" I ever experienced(MDX feels and is much quicker), it did not drive or handle well, boring to drive, ugly looks, not all that refined(bamboo trim was nice) I was shocked so many people buy them after driving it, I could not wait to get back in my GS350 that was 4 or 5 years older. I would never choose a RX350 over a GS, I wouldn't even want one over a Accord Sport/Touring or ES. Camry, that is a different story, I have no interest in ever owning a Camry after driving them even though I know they will be very reliable and there are several CUV's I would rather have over a Camry or Passat and some other sedans.
10-09-19, 12:53 PM
#27
Lexus Fanatic
Your experience with the Camry is similar to mine, I never liked them, when I had them as rentals I never cared for them, extremely boring, felt chintzy and dull on the inside, couldn't wait to get back to my car even when I had a Mitsubishi Eclipse. The new one does look chintzy on the inside too, I don't like it. That doesn't mean all family sedans are as boring and dull as Camry's, I think if you had a Accord Sport/Touring you would have liked it and felt totally different, they are much nicer, nicer interior, drive/handle better, look better.
I recently had a new RX350 as a loaner and I did not like it, interior had noticeable cost cutting, engine was pretty thrashy/loud in a bad way, had one of the weakest "300hp" I ever experienced(MDX feels and is much quicker), it did not drive or handle well, boring to drive, ugly looks, not all that refined(bamboo trim was nice) I was shocked so many people buy them after driving it, I could not wait to get back in my GS350 that was 4 or 5 years older. I would never choose a RX350 over a GS, I wouldn't even want one over a Accord Sport/Touring or ES. Camry, that is a different story, I have no interest in ever owning a Camry after driving them even though I know they will be very reliable and there are several CUV's I would rather have over a Camry or Passat and some other sedans.
10-09-19, 02:25 PM
#28
Lexus Fanatic
Your experience with the Camry is similar to mine, I never liked them, when I had them as rentals I never cared for them, extremely boring, felt chintzy and dull on the inside, couldn't wait to get back to my car even when I had a Mitsubishi Eclipse. The new one does look chintzy on the inside too, I don't like it. That doesn't mean all family sedans are as boring and dull as Camry's, I think if you had a Accord Sport/Touring you would have liked it and felt totally different, they are much nicer, nicer interior, drive/handle better, look better.
I recently had a new RX350 as a loaner and I did not like it, interior had noticeable cost cutting, engine was pretty thrashy/loud in a bad way, had one of the weakest "300hp" I ever experienced(MDX feels and is much quicker), it did not drive or handle well, boring to drive, ugly looks, not all that refined(bamboo trim was nice) I was shocked so many people buy them after driving it, I could not wait to get back in my GS350 that was 4 or 5 years older. I would never choose a RX350 over a GS, I wouldn't even want one over a Accord Sport/Touring or ES. Camry, that is a different story, I have no interest in ever owning a Camry after driving them even though I know they will be very reliable and there are several CUV's I would rather have over a Camry or Passat and some other sedans.
I recently had a new RX350 as a loaner and I did not like it, interior had noticeable cost cutting, engine was pretty thrashy/loud in a bad way, had one of the weakest "300hp" I ever experienced(MDX feels and is much quicker), it did not drive or handle well, boring to drive, ugly looks, not all that refined(bamboo trim was nice) I was shocked so many people buy them after driving it, I could not wait to get back in my GS350 that was 4 or 5 years older. I would never choose a RX350 over a GS, I wouldn't even want one over a Accord Sport/Touring or ES. Camry, that is a different story, I have no interest in ever owning a Camry after driving them even though I know they will be very reliable and there are several CUV's I would rather have over a Camry or Passat and some other sedans.
10-09-19, 02:44 PM
#29
Lexus Fanatic
Except that her generality statements seem to be backed up by what buyer behavior is showing. Clearly people are buying crossovers instead of sedans when they go to make a purchase in larger and larger percentages. Thats just a fact, so clearly to more and more people they are a "more sensible or better more useful purchase".
I spent a week in a Toyota Camry, and I made a realization. I like LUXURY SEDANS better than CUVs/SUVs, but I no longer like SEDANS better. The Camry was utterly underwhelming. Low, poor visibility, not nice to drive. Not especially refined. If you asked me if I would rather have this vehicle, or say a 2 row crossover? I'd take the crossover. For now, I still prefer my luxury sedan, but I can totally see my tastes evolving there too. There was a time when I would have chosen a rental Camry over a rental Grand Cherokee or Ford Edge or something like that every time, but today I wouldnt.
I spent a week in a Toyota Camry, and I made a realization. I like LUXURY SEDANS better than CUVs/SUVs, but I no longer like SEDANS better. The Camry was utterly underwhelming. Low, poor visibility, not nice to drive. Not especially refined. If you asked me if I would rather have this vehicle, or say a 2 row crossover? I'd take the crossover. For now, I still prefer my luxury sedan, but I can totally see my tastes evolving there too. There was a time when I would have chosen a rental Camry over a rental Grand Cherokee or Ford Edge or something like that every time, but today I wouldnt.
10-09-19, 02:53 PM
#30
Lexus Fanatic
Whether it is a happy trend or not is open to debate.
Remember my earlier posts about never saying never? 
While I respect your opinion, in most cases, no, they do not ride just as nice. Yes, some of it is subjective, and yes, there are a few exceptions, but they are generally in the XL class with very long wheelbases and soft suspensions, A.K.A. Escalade and Navigator.
Even the new Aviator and Corsair, while very good for SUVs, still, over bumps, are not like a Continental or MKZ. Having said that, though, the Corsair is arguably the best American-brand compact SUV I've sampled.....I'll go into that more in detail on my write-up.
I would likely will never ever buy another sedan
A hatch or cross-over to replace offers more value, practicality and for the most part, they ride just as nice (if not better sometimes) and are close in fuel efficiency.
Even the new Aviator and Corsair, while very good for SUVs, still, over bumps, are not like a Continental or MKZ. Having said that, though, the Corsair is arguably the best American-brand compact SUV I've sampled.....I'll go into that more in detail on my write-up.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-09-19 at 02:58 PM.