Kira X

iTrader: (24)

That’s a good point. I had heard that the new G20 3 Series were much bigger than the older models. I personally think the GS-F is way overpriced, despite being a very well built car. Especially considering how outdated the technology is compared to the Germans and even other Lexus.

Like you said, Lexus’ are usually a good value but in the case of the RC-F/GS-F they’re overpriced. The GS-F is an amazing value used/CPO though. I wish they weren’t killing the GS as I’d like to see how a new generation would stand against the competition. Especially with G20 3 Series being comparable in size and the 5 Series being so large now.

Frog98

Sorry, after buying Porsche's and BMW's recently, I don't view the GS F as overpriced for what you pay. Compare the total cost of a M550i or base Panamera purchase out the door with extended warranty vs. GS F. Heck just look at the cost of the extended warranty, that tells you all you need to know LOL. The 3 series is an entry level premium car. Not in the same category.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

GSF is fully optioned from the factory, you pretty much only shop for your color/color. Then on the other hand you get nickel and dimed on the options for german cars

Frog98

Yep, that's what I loved about the GS F even vs. the RC F. On the German cars I purchased, unless you custom order it, you won't get all the options you want. I got lucky on my M550i and got almost every option except for the power rear sunshade. But that was a rare car. Don't even get me started on Porsche options, LOL. I just want all the good options, why can't I have it all? Some people think all the optional options makes cars unique....I just think of them as missing something

peteharvey

I will test new 3 and 5 Series next week.

If I'm not wrong, despite increases in wheelbase, generation after generation, there is little increase in interior space.
Back in the early 80's, I used to use a measuring tape for the cabin width, cabin length and legroom etc just like Bitkahuna does today, but these days I have stopped that because I realize that the shape of the interior is complex, and there are many other variables including the height, softness and compression of the seats.
Like new Tesla Model 3 & S; rear passengers sit with feet, ankles and knees elevated 4" due to height of battery pack, hence the knees are close to the chest and the feet/ankles close to the bum - a rather unrefined seating position.
If I'm not wrong, new 3 Series does NOT match ageing 4GS for cabin length.

It's just like the Lexus 5LS - the extra long wheelbases are used to mount the engine behind the front axle for near 50/50 weight distribution to maximize handling.
The extra long 5LS wheelbase does not translate into cabin length at all.

2018 3 Series 112.2".
2016 5 Series 117.1"; ~5" longer than 3 Series.
2017 5LS 123"; ~6" longer than 5 Series.

These three models have long wheelbases, because they are all "recent" designs.
Long wheelbases don't necessarily mean they are more spacious than their peers.

Despite its new long wheelbase, if I'm not wrong, new 3 Series will not match ageing 2012 calendar year 4GS for interior cabin size.
New 3 Series is unlikely to match ageing 4GS for NVH refinement either.

Larger models aren't just designed to be more spacious, larger models are also designed to be quieter, better equipped, and better built too.
Though this does come at the expense of performance, economy, braking, maneuverability, handling, and costs.

New 3 Series is significantly lighter than 4GS thanks to the CLAR platform's liberal use of aluminium and its smaller size.
While 5 Series is lighter than ageing 4GS too, due to CLAR platform's aluminium content too.

For a start, when I Google trunk capacities, I see metric sites quoting all new 3 Series as 480 L vs ageing 4GS 520 L, or EPA 17 vs 18.4 cubic feet.
I will find out more next week when I test drive them.

.

Kira X

iTrader: (24)

I wouldn’t consider it extremely overpriced for what you get but it would be nice if they started in the 70k range. Maybe like a base model option. We had trouble selling GS-F’s due to the price. Everyone wanted one when they walked into the showroom but it was too pricey for them. Those customers were just regular, loyal Lexus customers that didn’t have interest in other brands. The people who bought GS-F’s always did a lot of research, test drove the competition, and liked the GS-F the best.

Supposedly the new 3 Series is much nicer and upscale than the previous models. My mom has a a 2014 328i and the car is awful. It feels is so cheap and entry level, even compared to my sister’s IS. I haven’t seen a G20 3 Series in person so I can’t really say if it can touch even a regular GS.

Kira X

iTrader: (24)

That’s true! It will make it easier to find the GS-F that I want when the time comes. You’re absolutely right about the Germans nickel and diming you for everything. They allow you to get all sorts of crazy options but they charge for every little thing.

You’re right about the longer wheelbase not always translating to a bigger cabin. The biggest example of this was the transition from LS460 to the LS500. I worked for Lexus when the LS500 came out and the sales training events kept claiming the car was bigger than the LS460L. In reality it was nowhere near as roomy as the outgoing LS460L and barely seemed comparable to the regular LS460. It was the weirdest thing to me.

That’s a really good point you brought up because these bigger cars may not even have added useable interior space.

Motorola

While that is true, I don't know how much to trust the EPA measurement of the GS interior being 99 cubic feet in space. That's one less cubic foot than the new ES on paper, but sit inside the new ES and it feels massive and cavernous compared to the GS. Either Lexus botched the measurement, or the GS interior is just not packaged very well.

Speaking of the new 3-Series, both it and the Genesis G70 have 94 cubic feet, but it's been unanimously declared that the 3-Series interior is far more spacious. As for the 5-Series, it's also supposedly "only" 99 cubic feet- same as the GS. Again, either it's superior packaging, or maybe BMW underrates interior space the same way they do their engine output. It wouldn't surprise me if the 3-Series cabin space is on par with the GS.

EZZ

I've been in both the new 3 and had a loaner GS. Honestly, seem like the same size to me. The new 3 series is pretty big. Almost don't need a 5 series anymore.

patgilm

I think you are spot on with the GS-F. I was looking at them before I picked up a 2020 M340 and they were just priced too high for what you were getting. Around $70k range would have been perfect. I think the exterior of the car looks good and the interior is amazing, just not for a MSRP of $90k. But then again, the GS-F was a car that wasn't going to appeal to the masses and wasn't going to sell a lot given its price point, it was a niche car.

As for the 3 series, I'm not sure it is much nicer than the previous models. Remember, it is still pretty entry level and the gauge cluster is well, as some would put it a cluster-f. However, for a M-light, the car and its engine are really nice. Nice enough for Toyota to put in one of their cars so does that mean that we can't say the BMW is unreliable (at least the B58 engine)? One of the big things over Lexus BMW has is the tech. To me that is the first thing I noticed.

EZZ

What do you think about the size of your car vs. the GSF in the interior. I thought the 3 series was about the same...only a little less room in the back but barely noticeable. The new 3 series is pretty big in its class now.

patgilm

It's been a while since I sat in a GS-F so I can't really say with certainty but it didn't seem like the GS-F was much bigger. I always sit in the back seat just to see how big it is for my kids and it just didn't seem that big compared to how big the exterior of the car looked to me. I will say they had a really nice matte grey one with blue interior at my Lexus dealer that I sat in while I was getting my car serviced a while ago and it was really nice.

As for the new G20 3-series, I do know that one of the complaints a lot of people on the BMW forums have is that the new 3-series is the size of the older 5-series and that it is too big.

JDR76

My GS is definitely not a large car inside. It feels normal to me now, as I'm used to it, but I still remember being surprised the first time I sat in a 4GS at how much smaller the interior was than I was expecting it to be. I find it plenty comfortable for 4 people, but it's truly not that large. Kind of "just enough" for us.

peteharvey

Despite new G20 3 Series claiming 56.8" tall to 4GS 57.3" tall, the new 3 Series looks very low from the outside; similar to low stance of older 2005-12 calendar year 3GS.

Inside, the 4GS is tall and upright, with a high seating position, high waist line and high dashboard; meanwhile 3 Series has low seats, low scuttle, and low maximum height of front windscreen.

3 Series driver's seat is tiny in both width and length, together with a tiny steering wheel; wiggle the left elbow, and the new 3 Series has little elbow room, while the right elbow rests on a narrow front center armrest.
4GS has a huge driver's seat in both width and length, together with a larger steering wheel; wiggle the left elbow and plenty of front elbow room, while looking at the right elbow, the front center arm rest is much wider.

Looking at the width of the base of the A pillars, the 3 Series is close together, while 4GS is wide apart.

From the rear, notice how 3 Series has very thin front seat backrest cushion, while 4GS has a very thick front seat backreast cushion for its unique air conditioned 200-way adjustable seats.
3 Series has a very narrow rear, with rear passengers seated close to each other, via a narrow rear center armrest; 4GS is wider.
The floor to ceiling height of 3 Series is very low, while 4GS is much higher.

3 Series does have very efficient rear seat foot space and rear seat knee room.
However, the rear of 4GS still has better rear knee and rear "shin" space.

The 3 Series trunk is slightly shorter, narrower and shallower than 4GS.
The EPA's 3 Series 17 cu ft vs the 4GS 18.4 cu ft, plus overseas 480 L vs 520 L sounds about right.


I sat inside C Class.
Tiny!
Tiny steering wheel.
Tiny front seats [compared to my everyday 4GS].
Such low seating front and rear.
In the rear, the floor to ceiling is low!
So narrow at the back; the rear doors really really taper.
The trunk looks about as long as 3 Series, wider, but shallower than 3 Series - maybe due to C Class' "pinched" tail styling?


E Class very similar to C, but bigger.
E Class front occupants sit closer to each other, with a narrower front center armrest.
Front seat back rests thicker than C Class, but thinner than old GS.
E Class rear occupants sit closer to each other than old 4GS too.
E Class has very low seating position front and rear too; unlike the ageing 4GS which has a very high/upright seating position.
Really tapered rear doors too.
Shallower trunk than old 4GS.


7 Series SWB is 2" shorter than 5LS, but LWB is 3.5" longer than 5LS.
I sat in 7 Series Long Wheelbase LWB.
Tall outside; tall inside.
Wide inside; esp wide at the rear.
After adjusting the electric rear seats, the 7 Series LWB had massive legroom at the rear.
Unlike 3 Series, the 7 Series does NOT use tiny little bucket seats; 7 Series bucket seats are larger than old 4GS bucket seats.
7 Series steering wheel bigger than 3 Series steering wheel.
Forgot to check the trunk.


The EPA's measurement of new 3 Series as 94 cu ft + 17 cu ft, and its classification as a "compact" sounds about right.
The EPA's measurement of ageing 4GS as 99 cu ft + 18.4 cu ft, and its classifcation as a "midsize" sounds about right.

Why does 7ES and 5LS seem to have such small EPA passenger volumes?
Careful.
Both have low floor to ceiling meausurements, especially the 5LS; they're not tall & upright like old 4GS anymore.
Both, especially 5LS have really tapered rear doors.
Also note that 7ES has tiny narrow and short front seat bases, with very thin backrests; the 7ES rear seat base is extremely short - just like IS & 3 Series!
Both 7ES and 5LS have smaller EPA trunk measurements than 4GS, and I would agree, since 5LS now has a very shallow trunk, while 7ES is short and shallow due to the pinched tail styling.


The 3 Series 112", 5 Series 117" and 5LS's 123" - simply do NOT automatically translate into additional cabin length at all.
New 5LS has same wheelbase as old LS460 LWB, but the old LS460 LWB has a longer cabin with more rear legroom!

Traditionally, as tech improves, torsional rigidity and bending stiffness improves, such that manufacturers can use longer wheelbases, withOUT really increasing the cabin length; in this case, the longer wheelbase is used to mount the front midengine further behind the front axle for nearer 50/50 weight distribution, to maximize handling - as opposed to additional wheelbase length being used to lengthen the cabin.


Wait till I drive the 3 Series.
In my experience, 3 Series smaller size and lighter weight will run rings around my 4GS.
My wife's 3.5IS200t totally ambushes my 4GS for handling.

A car like a Genesis G80 [which I almost purchased in 2015] is in the midsize class, but is actually genuinely large/huge outside & inside!
Conversely, while 5LS is in full size class, 5LS is actually rated as being only EPA midsize for size!
Notice how there is a difference between the Class versus the Size.
Class refers to many characteristics put together, whereas size refers to size only.

Current G80 is rated by EPA as "large" with a whopping 107.7 cu ft interior.
However, the trunk is compromized with only 15.3 cu ft or metric 433 L.
Furthermore, G80's woking size and weight compromizes its performance, braking, efficiency, maneuverability and dynamics.

In engineering, nothing is perfect.
Everything has its pros and cons; advantages and disadvantages.
Horses for courses, and each to their own....
.

EZZ

Review by Doug Demuro. Basically, its way underpowered and overpriced when new...but a great deal used. Enjoy.