SW17LS

Only problem with that is security, it opens the garage to access.



By that logic all code changes are meaningless because there is no requirement to retrofit to codes established after the property was built.

​​​​​​​This just makes a house a little bit safer, which is the whole point.

JDR76

I took a look online to see if there were any systems available for opening the door if CO is detected. I found a couple, but both said they were no longer available. Not sure why. Perhaps they didn't perform well. Seems like it would be easy to pair up a CO sensor with a programmable door opener function.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

maybe there is a zwave CO detector and zwave garage door opener and you can do the home automation thing with it

geko29

Not at all. For example, GFCIs make a tangible benefit, as electrocution is a significant risk. So they most certainly decreased injuries and deaths very quickly after they were adopted into code, and started being put into new construction or substantial remodels. I have personally been saved by one.

This is different. In order to make even a teeny tiny impact, you have to get almost everyone to have one. As I said above, statistically speaking you have to install these in 2.6 million homes if you hope to eliminate one death per decade. We can certainly disagree, but I can think of far better ways to spend $700 million than on preventing one person from accidentally giving themselves CO poisoning.

To put that in perspective, Bill Gates has proposed a plan to eliminate Malaria from the face of the earth--thereby saving 445,000 lives per year--for what it would cost us to save 0.14 people per year with these devices.

SW17LS

But you don't have to retrofit existing homes to include GFCI outlets, only homes constructed after they were required. There are many, many homes out there with no GFCI outlets, or without GFCI outlets installed everywhere in a home where there is a ground fault risk. You're just assuming the risk too, you have no idea how many people were killed annually by ground fault electrocution specifically and how that number of deaths was impacted by the creation of the new code.

I just don't see what the issue is here. Municipalities will decide whether or not to adopt this as a code requirement individually, and your math doesnt tell the whole story. In fact, you could just install it in one home to avoid one death if its the right home.

Nobody is talking about spending $700M. In any event, that cost will be borne by homebuilders and if it increases the cost of a house $200 I don't think anybody is going to care or notice.

geko29

Not an assumption. Before GFCIs, there were 600 home electrocution deaths per year. This halved in less than a decade as the new codes went into effect. Today there are less than 200 per year, even as the population has expanded signficantly and the number of electrical outlets and devices in the average home has skyrocketed. Source: NEMA

If you can accurately predict which home it needs to be installed in, I will pay for it myself. But you can't. That's the point of using statistical analysis.

The point is that $700M is the aggregate cost at which we are likely to save one life. It's an asymptotic curve, of course--it could be significantly less (as you point out), but it could also be significantly more. We could install $2B worth of these things and not save anybody. I agree that a large proportion of people will not notice the cost rolled into their home. But assuming it is widespread, it is still a significant aggregate drain on household finances to provide a benefit that is vanishingly close to zero. It's a feel-good law, nothing more.

SW17LS

GFCIs only protect from ground faults, not all electrocutions. Homes have circuit breakers, arc fault interrupting circuits, so on and so forth. 600 people were killed in ALL electrocution deaths, not just those caused by ground fault.

You're trying to make a point using a set of data and costs that you're basically just making up. Again, I see no issue with such a code change, its an inexpensive per home cost and it makes homes a little safer. Whats the harm in that? Talk to your local government if you want to be sure that they don't adopt a similar code in your area.

geko29

I don't think you understand how a GFCI works. GFCIs are the only thing you mention--and indeed, the only active component of a home's electrical system--that are designed to protect people from shock or electrocution. In a nutshell, it measures the current coming "in" on the hot and compares it to the current going "out" on the neutral. If they don't match, that current is leaking somewhere, possibly into a human who is about to die. The GFCI then trips to stop the leakage.

Circuit breakers are designed to protect wiring from overload, and thereby prevent fires. Household current can be fatal at as little as 0.05 amps, and is nearly always fatal between 0.1 and 0.2 amps. Breakers generally trip between 15 and 50 amps, so they are no help. Arc fault (AFCI) breakers are designed detect arcing and stop it from starting a fire. Again, no help in preventing electrocution. The reduction in electrocution deaths is pretty much 100% due to GFCI.

But thanks for bringing those other two up, as there are 40,000 home electrical fires per year, resulting in 350 deaths per year. So we're actually attacking something there.

Literally the only thing made up (I would use the word "estimated"), is the approximate $250-300 cost for the electrical circuit, CO detector, fan, ductwork, and wall penetration to make this solution work. I can certainly be swayed up or down from that, there's a little room for fudge factor. Everything else is a verifiable fact, whether it's that there are 59 million homes in the US, or that there were 28 deaths between 2006 and 2018 caused by cars left running in the garage. Everything beyond that is simple probabilities.

SW17LS

I absolutely do know how a GFCI works, I work in the housing industry. What you’re describing is a ground fault...which would happen when you become the ground and complete the circuit. That’s why they’re mandated in areas where there is likely to be water, kitchens, bathrooms, laundry areas, outdoor areas, etc. it’s much easier for you to potentially complete a circuit if you’re standing in water.

You absolutely cannot say that every home electrocution death would have been solved by a GFCI outlet. I’m also obviously not anti-GFCI, clearly they make homes much safer. My point was not to say GFCI breakers weren’t worthwhile, it was to illustrate that just because every home isn’t upgraded with GFCI breakers and outlets doesn’t mean that mandating their use in new homes wasn’t a benefit.

Thanks for your argument, but I’ll take all the safety I and my family can get. I don’t understand arguing against anything that improves safety when there’s a modest cost that won’t be noticed by the consumer and a couple feet of garage wall used up the majority of homeowners would never even utilize.

tex2670

Do you plan to retrofit your home to add this system so you can have all the safety you can get?

BoDarville

if you are so shut off from your surroundings that you do not realize that your CO alarm is sounding off, your garage door has just opened, and your vehicle has been idling in the garage for the last several hours, then for special people like you i am certain they can also incorporate some sort of flashing strobe light and perhaps a vibrating buzzer on your backside to alert you if that's what it takes

what if, what if.....what if the fan malfunctions? now you and your family are dead

tex2670

I guess I'd have to spring for annual inspections of the system.

But actually, I won't be. Because there's no way I wouldn't notice my car is running in the garage. So there's that.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

obvious solution is to straight pipe all your cars, then you know if the car is running in the garage

sm1ke

iTrader: (5)

If the CO detector goes off, my one and only focus will be on getting my family out of the house immediately. The point is that the contents of the garage are vulnerable with the door open until I or the emergency response crew can get to it. It wouldn't take long for a passing thief to pop in and grab some tools. Go ahead and call me "special" again if that makes you feel better about yourself.

4TehNguyen

iTrader: (1)

only need to open a garage door a foot and the heavier than air CO will vent out quickly