UAW strike
10-11-19, 07:51 PM
#181
Lexus Fanatic
Hey. I listed off those companies as they were non union. Nothing to do with American or non American. The response who to how “automakers” redefine how they do business in the US.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 10-11-19 at 07:55 PM.
10-11-19, 07:59 PM
#182
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
On another note, in Toronto, you live relatively near the Oshawa plant, don't you? Haven't seen much news of the plant lately. I heard some (unconfirmed) reports that they were supporting the UAW strike (and, of course, the news-story of some of them bring donuts to the striking workers one morning)...but, other than that, how are things at the plant? Is it still up and running...or did the UNIFOR people there walk out in support of the UAW? It's supposedly up for the ax, come the end of the year.
10-11-19, 08:29 PM
#183
Lexus Champion
GM had a chance to jump on the electric bandwagon and keep its place in this field but couldn't see far enough ahead when it chopped up its EV1 experiment in the 90s. The UAW is not the group which told GM execs to build garbage, which turned consumers over to the Japanese cars, which ironically sold for more money.
10-11-19, 08:40 PM
#184
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Also, the Nickel-Hydride batteries in use back then cannot compare to the Lithium-Ion batteries today. The people at Tesla, especially, would laugh at this car.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-11-19 at 08:45 PM.
10-11-19, 08:44 PM
#185
Lexus Fanatic
The Toyota Camry is made by American workers and has more U.S. content than most cars from U.S. based companies. There is no case to be made why GM has to use union workers.
10-11-19, 08:51 PM
#186
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
True, but you don't see Toyota closing up plants left and right, dropping sedans left and right, and putting tens of thousands of people out of work. Toyota takes a responsible view......if you are going to sell in the U.S., build in the U.S., whether it is Union labor or not.
And it also helps them in more ways than one.....building Toyota vehicles here in the U.S. saves the cost of sending them across the ocean in container-shops.
10-12-19, 05:50 AM
#187
Lexus Fanatic
Toyota, Nissan, and Honda all build in Mexico and import for the US market.
I think the Camry is the most "American" part sourced car in the United States.
Sad for this argument, your argument is not winning. GM imports from Mexico have increased by 21% this year.
You are also forgetting that automation/robots is the future and automation/robots will be replacing human workers.
You are also forgetting that automation/robots is the future and automation/robots will be replacing human workers.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 10-12-19 at 06:00 AM.
10-12-19, 06:20 AM
#188
Lexus Champion
Canada an exporter of vehicles to the States and GM, Ford FCA all have plants here - they are union. The non-union Japanese car plants are: Honda, Toyota and Lexus.
Originally Posted by mmarshall
Even if GM had kept and improved the EV1, I'm not sure it would sell very well today. Its awkward looks (IMO, that of a turtle LOL) wouldn't go over very well in today's climate, although it is probably no more awkward-looking than the Nissan Leaf and some other potential competitors.
10-12-19, 06:23 AM
#189
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
Car makers make cars all over the world. BMW makes all their SUVs in Spartanburg SC and *exports* them back to Europe. Sounds like a terrible thing in your view because they’re a “German” company.
While sovereignty and nationality still matters among governments and nations, they can and do treat other governments and nations horribly. Manipulation, tarriffs, specific long term plans and strategies (China) to destroy industries in other nations (steel, aluminum, electronics), theft of intellectual property, cybercrime, and so on. Given the seriousness and scale of THESE issues, the UAW strike seems pathetic and irrelevant, which it is. It’s only hurting GM, AND the UAW and will ultimately accomplish NOTHING except the hurt.
GM had a chance to jump on the electric bandwagon and keep its place in this field but couldn't see far enough ahead when it chopped up its EV1 experiment in the 90s.
The UAW is not the group which told GM execs to build garbage, which turned consumers over to the Japanese cars, which ironically sold for more money.
All 3 have come a long way since then but Chrysler is obviously a shadow of its former self, Ford is all trucks and SUVs and GM is all over the map but actually producing the best vehicles they ever have. GM is dragging a gigantic financial obligation to the UAW (working and retired) around that limits investment, limits flexibility, and massively hinders them globally. This will continue to be the case until the UAW is destroyed.
In the early days of mass manufacturing, unions were ESSENTIAL in creating better working conditions and pay and safety against corrupt and powerful management abusing workers.
another thing that is almost over is the idea of working for one of these huge companies for a lifetime. Younger workers generally have no interest in that so if big industrial companies want that they will have no choice but to offer a better working environment or the jobs will be sent overseas. The corrupt UAW has no clue and is still operating on basic animosity which is not constructive.
GM was able to shed billions of debt during it’s bankruptcy and government loan, but Ford didn’t and has an absurd level of debt. It really is one downturn away from bankruptcy and of course, the UAW will be affected but of course, won’t give ground.
True, but you don't see Toyota closing up plants left and right, dropping sedans left and right, and putting tens of thousands of people out of work. Toyota takes a responsible view......if you are going to sell in the U.S., build in the U.S., whether it is Union labor or not.
And it also helps them in more ways than one.....building Toyota vehicles here in the U.S. saves the cost of sending them across the ocean in container-shops.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Africa or India are places where these vehicles will be made in the future too.
10-12-19, 06:45 AM
#190
Lexus Fanatic
I view the exporting of vehicle production to Mexico as wrong, it is because they are taking advantage of the very cheap poverty like wage. I do not agree with it. I would likely not buy a Toyota (my favorite brand) if they built a particular model in Mexico.
I don't exactly agree that Toyota builds in US or Canada because it is just more profitable. They do as well for political reasons. If Toyota was to close Kentucky and open in Mexico, there would be a lot of fall out. When the current president was on a tirade about the building in Mexico, Toyota reversed its decision to built in Mexico.
that’s absurd. Toyota builds in the u.s. because it’s more profitable to do so. It makes the company more agile and responsive to demand, and saves money. Japan’s population is rapidly shrinking and aging too. And of course all the highly successful Lexus RX (except hybrid) are made in canada, but I know you think canada and the u.s. are the ‘same’.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 10-12-19 at 07:09 AM.
10-12-19, 07:04 AM
#191
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
^^^ definitely agree politics is a factor.
10-12-19, 08:03 AM
#192
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Simple. Although there is a physical border between the two countries (and the Meteric system is in more widespread use in Canada), the two economies, traditionally, have more or less functioned as one. That's not necessarily the case with Mexico, as that country has had closer ties with the countries to its south (Guatemala, El Salvador, etc...)
I don't think you quite get the point. Sell in Europe, build in Europe.
The tariffs were enacted because Globalism, for us, had simply gotten out of hand, and other countries were taking advantage of it. You moderators don't seem to want us talking about Trump, so I can't say much more about it here.
Exactly what it says. I don't think this strike is going to be settled (or be able to be settled) in the usual manner...by a simple labor wage/hour/benefit contract. This goes far beyond that. GM (and maybe some other companies) are going to have to make big changes in the way they produce their vehicles, bring a lot more jobs back home, or probably face more strikes...and possible Canadian strikes. This strike is a far more serious issue than some here are making it out to be. It is arguably the most significant event in the auto industry that I've seen since the upheavals of the 1970s.
Matty (as usual) is correct. Sure Mexican workers deserve a break. Let them build what auto companies sell in Mexico...not the U.S.
Chrysler, in my lifetime, except for a brief period in the early-mid 1960s, has always had problems with its assembly quality. Some things they did learn from the past....some not.
Having lived through the period, and driven some those products, I'd say that, in comparison to rivals Ford and Chrysler, GM built its best vehicles in the late 1960s, when they were well-known for fit/finish, attention to detail, well-stamped bodies, refinement, and comfort. Their only real shortcoming back then was smooth but quick-fading Acrylic lacquer paint jobs that required constant cleaning and waxing to keep from fading. The Ford/Chrysler baked Enamel paint was noticeably more durable and longer-lasting....except for some of the rainbow Chrysler colors used on their performance cars.
Well (obviously)...........history is repeating itself. 
The Japanese companies got to where they did by doing just that.....providing job security.
But......don't get me wrong. There should NOT be job security for goof-offs, drunks/alcoholics, illegal drug-users, chronic tardiness, slipshod work, sabotage, or a careless attitude to one's job. These people are building vehicles that other people's lives depend on....if you violate that trust, or bring shame upon your fellow workers or the vehicles you are building, the company has a right (and, IMO, a duty) to boot you out the door. And, of course, I'm talking about actual assembly-line incompetence, not defects in design which can be traced to the engineers or designers.
Well, Ford can't be that close to bankruptcy. They sure found money to put into the design of their newer Lincolns, with nice materials. For proof, go look at some of them yourself.
Of course it is easier for them to build their American-market vehicles here if they are going to sell here. That's what me and Matty have been saying all along....we're not arguing that point. And it they sell in Japan (which they do) naturally it's easier for them to build their home-market products there.
The whole thing is very simple.....build where you sell. That's the whole idea behind tariffs, unions, and simple marketing.
But you can't blame that on the auto industry....or companies, or unions. There is simply a low birth rate in the country, and people are living longer because of advances in medicine.
So? A number of successful vehicles in the U.S. were (or are) made in Canada. The Crown Vics that police and taxi drivers used was one example. Camaros are another. I've already stated why the economies of both nations are closely intertwined.
You keep forgetting that the days of cheaper production overseas are coming to an end. The tariffs are seeing to that. And, in addition that's one of the main issues of the UAW strike. Like it or not, the days of unrestrained Globalism, for the American auto industry, are (or soon will be) in the past.
Not for the American market....perhaps for vehicles that will actually be sold there.
Car makers make cars all over the world. BMW makes all their SUVs in Spartanburg SC and *exports* them back to Europe. Sounds like a terrible thing in your view because they’re a “German” company.
While sovereignty and nationality still matters among governments and nations, they can and do treat other governments and nations horribly. Manipulation, tarriffs, specific long term plans and strategies (China) to destroy industries in other nations (steel, aluminum, electronics), theft of intellectual property, cybercrime, and so on. Given the seriousness and scale of THESE issues, the UAW strike seems pathetic and irrelevant, which it is. It’s only hurting GM, AND the UAW and will ultimately accomplish NOTHING except the hurt.
What does the bold part mean?
‘Outsource’? I believe Ford and GM Mexico plants are still Ford and GM, they’re not ‘outsourced’. And don’t Mexican workers deserve to have an opportunity for a better life? They may be paid less than U.S. workers but maybe their cost of living is lower too. It’s a global labor market, something the dinosaur UAW will never acknowledge.
GM, Ford, and Chrysler certainly built some foul cars and was caught flat-footed by oil crisis in the 70s and Japan’s embrace of efficiency and quality gave them a great opportunity which they seized.
All 3 have come a long way since then but Chrysler is obviously a shadow of its former self, Ford is all trucks and SUVs and GM is all over the map but actually producing the best vehicles they ever have. GM is dragging a gigantic financial obligation to the UAW (working and retired) around that limits investment, limits flexibility, and massively hinders them globally. This will continue to be the case until the UAW is destroyed.
In the early days of mass manufacturing, unions were ESSENTIAL in creating better working conditions and pay and safety against corrupt and powerful management abusing workers.
another thing that is almost over is the idea of working for one of these huge companies for a lifetime.
But......don't get me wrong. There should NOT be job security for goof-offs, drunks/alcoholics, illegal drug-users, chronic tardiness, slipshod work, sabotage, or a careless attitude to one's job. These people are building vehicles that other people's lives depend on....if you violate that trust, or bring shame upon your fellow workers or the vehicles you are building, the company has a right (and, IMO, a duty) to boot you out the door. And, of course, I'm talking about actual assembly-line incompetence, not defects in design which can be traced to the engineers or designers.
GM was able to shed billions of debt during it’s bankruptcy and government loan, but Ford didn’t and has an absurd level of debt. It really is one downturn away from bankruptcy and of course, the UAW will be affected but of course, won’t give ground.
Toyota builds in the u.s. because it’s more profitable to do so. It makes the company more agile and responsive to demand, and saves money.
The whole thing is very simple.....build where you sell. That's the whole idea behind tariffs, unions, and simple marketing.
Japan’s population is rapidly shrinking and aging too.
And of course all the highly successful Lexus RX (except hybrid) are made in canada, but I know you think canada and the u.s. are the ‘same’.
Yup and that’s going to continue as the UAW makes it highly undesirable for GM, Ford, Chrysler to build in the U.S.
Wouldn’t be surprised if Africa or India are places where these vehicles will be made in the future too.
Last edited by mmarshall; 10-12-19 at 08:07 AM.
10-12-19, 08:33 AM
#193
Lexus Fanatic
Simple. Although there is a physical border between the two countries (and the Meteric system is in more widespread use in Canada), the two economies, traditionally, have more or less functioned as one. That's not necessarily the case with Mexico, as that country has had closer ties with the countries to its south (Guatemala, El Salvador, etc...)
I don't think you quite get the point. Sell in Europe, build in Europe.
The tariffs were enacted because Globalism, for us, had simply gotten out of hand, and other countries were taking advantage of it. You moderators don't seem to want us talking about Trump, so I can't say much more about it here.
Exactly what it says. I don't think this strike is going to be settled (or be able to be settled) in the usual manner...by a simple labor wage/hour/benefit contract. This goes far beyond that. GM (and maybe some other companies) are going to have to make big changes in the way they produce their vehicles, bring a lot more jobs back home, or probably face more strikes...and possible Canadian strikes. This strike is a far more serious issue than some here are making it out to be. It is arguably the most significant event in the auto industry that I've seen since the upheavals of the 1970s.
Matty (as usual) is correct. Sure Mexican workers deserve a break. Let them build what auto companies sell in Mexico...not the U.S.
Chrysler, in my lifetime, except for a brief period in the early-mid 1960s, has always had problems with its assembly quality. Some things they did learn from the past....some not.
Having lived through the period, and driven some those products, I'd say that, in comparison to rivals Ford and Chrysler, GM built its best vehicles in the late 1960s, when they were well-known for fit/finish, attention to detail, well-stamped bodies, refinement, and comfort. Their only real shortcoming back then was smooth but quick-fading Acrylic lacquer paint jobs that required constant cleaning and waxing to keep from fading. The Ford/Chrysler baked Enamel paint was noticeably more durable and longer-lasting....except for some of the rainbow Chrysler colors used on their performance cars.
Well (obviously)...........history is repeating itself.
The Japanese companies got to where they did by doing just that.....providing job security.
But......don't get me wrong. There should NOT be job security for goof-offs, drunks/alcoholics, illegal drug-users, chronic tardiness, slipshod work, sabotage, or a careless attitude to one's job. These people are building vehicles that other people's lives depend on....if you violate that trust, or bring shame upon your fellow workers or the vehicles you are building, the company has a right (and, IMO, a duty) to boot you out the door. And, of course, I'm talking about actual assembly-line incompetence, not defects in design which can be traced to the engineers or designers.
Well, Ford can't be that close to bankruptcy. They sure found money to put into the design of their newer Lincolns, with nice materials. For proof, go look at some of them yourself.
Of course it is easier for them to build their American-market vehicles here if they are going to sell here. That's what me and Matty have been saying all along....we're not arguing that point. And it they sell in Japan (which they do) naturally it's easier for them to build their home-market products there.
The whole thing is very simple.....build where you sell. That's the whole idea behind tariffs, unions, and simple marketing.
But you can't blame that on the auto industry....or companies, or unions. There is simply a low birth rate in the country, and people are living longer because of advances in medicine.
So? A number of successful vehicles in the U.S. were (or are) made in Canada. The Crown Vics that police and taxi drivers used was one example. Camaros are another. I've already stated why the economies of both nations are closely intertwined.
You keep forgetting that the days of cheaper production overseas are coming to an end. The tariffs are seeing to that. And, in addition that's one of the main issues of the UAW strike. Like it or not, the days of unrestrained Globalism, for the American auto industry, are (or soon will be) in the past.
Not for the American market....perhaps for vehicles that will actually be sold there.
I don't think you quite get the point. Sell in Europe, build in Europe.
The tariffs were enacted because Globalism, for us, had simply gotten out of hand, and other countries were taking advantage of it. You moderators don't seem to want us talking about Trump, so I can't say much more about it here.
Exactly what it says. I don't think this strike is going to be settled (or be able to be settled) in the usual manner...by a simple labor wage/hour/benefit contract. This goes far beyond that. GM (and maybe some other companies) are going to have to make big changes in the way they produce their vehicles, bring a lot more jobs back home, or probably face more strikes...and possible Canadian strikes. This strike is a far more serious issue than some here are making it out to be. It is arguably the most significant event in the auto industry that I've seen since the upheavals of the 1970s.
Matty (as usual) is correct. Sure Mexican workers deserve a break. Let them build what auto companies sell in Mexico...not the U.S.
Chrysler, in my lifetime, except for a brief period in the early-mid 1960s, has always had problems with its assembly quality. Some things they did learn from the past....some not.
Having lived through the period, and driven some those products, I'd say that, in comparison to rivals Ford and Chrysler, GM built its best vehicles in the late 1960s, when they were well-known for fit/finish, attention to detail, well-stamped bodies, refinement, and comfort. Their only real shortcoming back then was smooth but quick-fading Acrylic lacquer paint jobs that required constant cleaning and waxing to keep from fading. The Ford/Chrysler baked Enamel paint was noticeably more durable and longer-lasting....except for some of the rainbow Chrysler colors used on their performance cars.
Well (obviously)...........history is repeating itself.
The Japanese companies got to where they did by doing just that.....providing job security.
But......don't get me wrong. There should NOT be job security for goof-offs, drunks/alcoholics, illegal drug-users, chronic tardiness, slipshod work, sabotage, or a careless attitude to one's job. These people are building vehicles that other people's lives depend on....if you violate that trust, or bring shame upon your fellow workers or the vehicles you are building, the company has a right (and, IMO, a duty) to boot you out the door. And, of course, I'm talking about actual assembly-line incompetence, not defects in design which can be traced to the engineers or designers.
Well, Ford can't be that close to bankruptcy. They sure found money to put into the design of their newer Lincolns, with nice materials. For proof, go look at some of them yourself.
Of course it is easier for them to build their American-market vehicles here if they are going to sell here. That's what me and Matty have been saying all along....we're not arguing that point. And it they sell in Japan (which they do) naturally it's easier for them to build their home-market products there.
The whole thing is very simple.....build where you sell. That's the whole idea behind tariffs, unions, and simple marketing.
But you can't blame that on the auto industry....or companies, or unions. There is simply a low birth rate in the country, and people are living longer because of advances in medicine.
So? A number of successful vehicles in the U.S. were (or are) made in Canada. The Crown Vics that police and taxi drivers used was one example. Camaros are another. I've already stated why the economies of both nations are closely intertwined.
You keep forgetting that the days of cheaper production overseas are coming to an end. The tariffs are seeing to that. And, in addition that's one of the main issues of the UAW strike. Like it or not, the days of unrestrained Globalism, for the American auto industry, are (or soon will be) in the past.
Not for the American market....perhaps for vehicles that will actually be sold there.
and Canada has lots of border areas that not divided by anything.
10-12-19, 08:43 AM
#194
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
And what you implied is wrong...I did not say that we should be shipping Lacrosses to China. We don't need to, nor should we...the Chinese already build them there for their own sales.
Tariffs or not, the strike is probably costing GM more. each day, than even the most stringent tariffs could. Sooner or later, Mary Barra just might (?) figure that out.