Toyota Camry Mechanical Review: Old vs New
#91
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#92
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In 2005, Lexus completed an organizational separation from parent company Toyota,[63] with dedicated design, engineering, training, and manufacturing centers working exclusively for the division.[64]
[65] This effort coincided with Lexus' launch in its home market of Japan and an expanded global launch of the brand in markets such as China.[
[65] This effort coincided with Lexus' launch in its home market of Japan and an expanded global launch of the brand in markets such as China.[
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 11-02-19 at 12:35 PM.
#93
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The F1 was always designed to be sold in the US, it was developed specifically for the US market. When they decided to create another brand is immaterial, the point is the car was developed from the ground up to be exactly what it is. That cannot be said for any other Lexus model of the 90s.
Facets of it were subsequently used in other products, but those things (such as the engine) were developed and designed specifically for the LS.
Every Lexus is a Toyota, there’s no disputing that. But that doesn’t mean that the people that design the RC also design the Corolla, that is NOT the case. Since 2005 Lexus models are designed and engineered independently of Toyota models by dedicated teams.
Facets of it were subsequently used in other products, but those things (such as the engine) were developed and designed specifically for the LS.
Every Lexus is a Toyota, there’s no disputing that. But that doesn’t mean that the people that design the RC also design the Corolla, that is NOT the case. Since 2005 Lexus models are designed and engineered independently of Toyota models by dedicated teams.
#94
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In August 1983, Toyota chairman Eiji Toyoda initiated the F1 project ("Flagship" and "No. 1" vehicle; alternatively called the "Circle-F" project), as a clandestine effort aimed at producing a world-class luxury sedan for international markets.[4]
[5]
Dawson, Chester (2004). Lexus: The Relentless Pursuit. John Wiley & Sons (Asia) Pte Ltd., Singapore. p. 4. ISBN 978-0-470-82110-7.
Observe in this video, the LS has "Toyota Research Institute" slapped all across the LS.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 11-02-19 at 01:48 PM.
#95
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Totally agree, Toyotas in general dont have that same totally over the top quality feel that they did in the 90s. What I'm not sure about is whether thats because build quality isn't what it used to be, or because all other competing cars are much better than they were back then, or some combination of the two.
Ultimately however, new car sales aren't driven by build quality or long term reliability, because those who are buying/leasing them when new probably won't have the car eternally. What sells is features and price, and some sacrifice must be taken somewhere. Unfortunately, build quality, materials, workmanship, maintainability, reliability and some mechanical components tend to take a hit as we trade those for more features.
So? I don't see that as an issue to be concerned about, for three reasons. First, how much he makes from each click-view (if any) is his own business, not ours. Second, many of us here on Car Chat post YouTube and other videos each day on the forum.....whoever has the copyrights to those videos probably makes money with each click, and probably has a right to. Third, CL itself operates with money from sponsors....the expenses have to be met somehow..
They actually do, Lexus design and production is entirely separate from Toyota now. Thats not unusual in the market today with shared platforms. The Aviator for example was designed entirely separate from the Explorer and the two teams were not allowed to collaborate. They were simply given the same building blocks to work from. Lexus formally spun off Lexus design sometime 10-15 years ago.
Let's say there are three main stages of creating a car, design, engineering and production. When a car is "designed" (as you state above, by a design team), it typically refers to the physical aspects of the design as it relates to the PR/marketing requirement of the company. For example, the layout of the dashboard, or the physical looks of the sheet metal. Sure, these can be separated per vehicle brand/model and are unique. A design theme is then chosen.
However, when it comes to the engineering stage, many things change. Mechanically speaking, its standard practice to reuse up to 70% of existing parts in the company's parts bin. This is driven mainly by cost and supply chain and logistic constraints. Since vehicles share platforms, certain components are already a given, such as the powertrain, electrical architecture, wheel base and suspension design. The "design" that each individual team came up with must now scale onto these platforms to make the concept a reality for production. Engineers always have to fight battles between design teams and finance teams to get things to work right and satisfy both parties. The reality here is a family set of vehicles is created with the same attributes, regardless of what brand it is marketed under, with the similarities existing in the mechanical components where customers typically don't see. The design is then finalized for production.
Production engineering takes over and is responsible for taking the engineered components and creating tooling, fixtures, robots, assembly lines, inspection procedures, part sourcing, etc to make it happen. Since cars are mass produced, they must be designed for manufacturing. Feedback is given to the engineers who must tweak designs even more to make parts and assemblies manufacturable.
Needless to say, the process of creating a car is far more complicated than "one design team for each brand". Due to many factors, designers aren't free handed when it comes to design, nor are engineers responsible for cost cutting measures, or is production responsible for you having to drop an entire sub-frame to change a control arm! As crash safety and emissions regulations tighten further, cars are becoming very "cookie-cutter" with each other. That's why I aimed in my mechanical review video to uncover the mechanical aspects of a car - to show you what you don't normally see or pay attention to when car shopping or watching a traditional review.
#96
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it wasn't sold as a lexus in japan (and elsewhere) since in japan toyota isn't perceived as just some little econobox maker, they've made the crown and century (full size FR layout luxury cars) for over 50 years... but as we saw with the VW phaeton, it doesn't matter how good something is if the brand has already established itself and built a reputation in other areas, so the lexus brand had to be created for the US to distinguish the LS as 'not just a toyota'
this will tell you everything you need to know:
notice how the official toyota video refers to the LS as "a luxury car aimed at the north american market"
#97
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I've read that BS also and it's nothing more than a marketing talking point. Naive to think that they don't look for way to share everything they possibly can to save money yet fool customers to think they are 2 entirely different vehicles. They are the same cake with different icing.
#98
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I've read that BS also and it's nothing more than a marketing talking point. Naive to think that they don't look for way to share everything they possibly can to save money yet fool customers to think they are 2 entirely different vehicles. They are the same cake with different icing.
#99
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A lot of us "car enthusiasts" (especially here on a Lexus forum) get caught up in equating "build quality" to being "better". Yes, build quality and reliability are important, especially to Toyota, who built its reputation on that. Heck even for myself, I wouldn't buy a base model 4 cylinder car... I'd want it fully trimmed out with the best of materials and a refined engine.
Ultimately however, new car sales aren't driven by build quality or long term reliability, because those who are buying/leasing them when new probably won't have the car eternally. What sells is features and price, and some sacrifice must be taken somewhere. Unfortunately, build quality, materials, workmanship, maintainability, reliability and some mechanical components tend to take a hit as we trade those for more features.
Ultimately however, new car sales aren't driven by build quality or long term reliability, because those who are buying/leasing them when new probably won't have the car eternally. What sells is features and price, and some sacrifice must be taken somewhere. Unfortunately, build quality, materials, workmanship, maintainability, reliability and some mechanical components tend to take a hit as we trade those for more features.
I made this thread for dedicated for discussion because I know the community here would be interested.
Let's say there are three main stages of creating a car, design, engineering and production. When a car is "designed" (as you state above, by a design team), it typically refers to the physical aspects of the design as it relates to the PR/marketing requirement of the company. For example, the layout of the dashboard, or the physical looks of the sheet metal. Sure, these can be separated per vehicle brand/model and are unique. A design theme is then chosen.
However, when it comes to the engineering stage, many things change. Mechanically speaking, its standard practice to reuse up to 70% of existing parts in the company's parts bin. This is driven mainly by cost and supply chain and logistic constraints. Since vehicles share platforms, certain components are already a given, such as the powertrain, electrical architecture, wheel base and suspension design. The "design" that each individual team came up with must now scale onto these platforms to make the concept a reality for production. Engineers always have to fight battles between design teams and finance teams to get things to work right and satisfy both parties. The reality here is a family set of vehicles is created with the same attributes, regardless of what brand it is marketed under, with the similarities existing in the mechanical components where customers typically don't see. The design is then finalized for production.
However, when it comes to the engineering stage, many things change. Mechanically speaking, its standard practice to reuse up to 70% of existing parts in the company's parts bin. This is driven mainly by cost and supply chain and logistic constraints. Since vehicles share platforms, certain components are already a given, such as the powertrain, electrical architecture, wheel base and suspension design. The "design" that each individual team came up with must now scale onto these platforms to make the concept a reality for production. Engineers always have to fight battles between design teams and finance teams to get things to work right and satisfy both parties. The reality here is a family set of vehicles is created with the same attributes, regardless of what brand it is marketed under, with the similarities existing in the mechanical components where customers typically don't see. The design is then finalized for production.
I've read that BS also and it's nothing more than a marketing talking point. Naive to think that they don't look for way to share everything they possibly can to save money yet fool customers to think they are 2 entirely different vehicles. They are the same cake with different icing.
#100
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I would be interested to watch a video of older Toyota Truck or a LX450 being taken apart.
#101
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I actually like it for what it is. A dolled up Explorer. And that is fact. Not sure why everyone has a problem with that. Not that they are the only manufacturer to do that. But most don't try to doll up something from starting at $36K all the way up to $90k. That's quite a range.
#102
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I actually like it for what it is. A dolled up Explorer. And that is fact. Not sure why everyone has a problem with that. Not that they are the only manufacturer to do that. But most don't try to doll up something from starting at $36K all the way up to $90k. That's quite a range.
Manufacturers have been doing this for years. You have to really dig in the parts bins and old brochures to view all this. I personally do not care, if has never bothered me one bit.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 11-06-19 at 05:52 AM.
#103
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I actually like it for what it is. A dolled up Explorer. And that is fact. Not sure why everyone has a problem with that.
But, of course, you have a right to your views. There are a couple of issues where I have gone against most of the crowd on Car Chat, too.....particularly on Ford and GM's management.
And we've also gotten off-topic...old vs. new Camrys.
#104
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The vehicles just feel entirely different. You should drive them.
Would I pay $90,000 for an Aviator? No, but VERY FEW of them are $90k. Would I pay $70k for an Aviator? Yeah.
Would I pay $90,000 for an Aviator? No, but VERY FEW of them are $90k. Would I pay $70k for an Aviator? Yeah.
#105
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I don't think you will find very many people here who will defend the QC problems that it is having.
They have a problem with it because, to most of us, it is not a fact. Respectfully, you are about the only person here who seems to think otherwise. These two vehicles do come from the same general platform and drivetrains, and share a few common items from the Ford parts-bin. But that's about it....otherwise, they are two completely different vehicles. Night and Day. If you were blindfolded, you could probably tell the difference between the two just by riding in them and from the tactile-feel of the trim and hardware.
But, of course, you have a right to your views. There are a couple of issues where I have gone against most of the crowd on Car Chat, too.....particularly on Ford and GM's management.
And we've also gotten off-topic...old vs. new Camrys.
They have a problem with it because, to most of us, it is not a fact. Respectfully, you are about the only person here who seems to think otherwise. These two vehicles do come from the same general platform and drivetrains, and share a few common items from the Ford parts-bin. But that's about it....otherwise, they are two completely different vehicles. Night and Day. If you were blindfolded, you could probably tell the difference between the two just by riding in them and from the tactile-feel of the trim and hardware.
But, of course, you have a right to your views. There are a couple of issues where I have gone against most of the crowd on Car Chat, too.....particularly on Ford and GM's management.
And we've also gotten off-topic...old vs. new Camrys.
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 11-06-19 at 10:21 AM.