AJT123

Right but it wouldn't exist if Toyota didn't decide to make Lexus, the LS400 for the US market.

Like I said, why not slap a Toyota badge on there for everyone else....same excellent car.

Toys4RJill

Toyota in 1983 decided they would design and create a full size luxury car F1 (not brand), it was around 1986 that Toyota decided they would market the new flagship as a new brand in the US and Europe. I look at any Lexus as a Toyota with a Lexus brand badge. (just my opinion)

This is PR fluff. The Calty Design research studio in the United States has designed many different Toyota or Lexus models. The current GS interior was designed by Calty. So was the Lexus LC concept. It all under the same parent. Every Lexus still says "manufactured by Toyota Motor Corp" at the end of the day

SW17LS

The F1 was always designed to be sold in the US, it was developed specifically for the US market. When they decided to create another brand is immaterial, the point is the car was developed from the ground up to be exactly what it is. That cannot be said for any other Lexus model of the 90s.

Facets of it were subsequently used in other products, but those things (such as the engine) were developed and designed specifically for the LS.

Every Lexus is a Toyota, there’s no disputing that. But that doesn’t mean that the people that design the RC also design the Corolla, that is NOT the case. Since 2005 Lexus models are designed and engineered independently of Toyota models by dedicated teams.

Toys4RJill

I would say Toyota has world markets in mind as well. There was a right-hand-design built into the vehicle form the start. No doubt that the Lexus brand was for sure, created for the US in mind.


In August 1983, Toyota chairman Eiji Toyoda initiated the F1 project ("Flagship" and "No. 1" vehicle; alternatively called the "Circle-F" project), as a clandestine effort aimed at producing a world-class luxury sedan for international markets.[4]
[5]

Dawson, Chester (2004). Lexus: The Relentless Pursuit. John Wiley & Sons (Asia) Pte Ltd., Singapore. p. 4. ISBN 978-0-470-82110-7.

That would not be possible. The engineered mechanical components are not Lexus exclusive in many cases. There is no chance the Land Crusier was developed by completely separate teams than the LX. This is just not likely. Perhaps a few Lexus models are, like the LFA-LC or new LS, but I can't see them all. Evidence suggests otherwise, so I would have to disagree with you.

Observe in this video, the LS has "Toyota Research Institute" slapped all across the LS.

speedkar9

A lot of us "car enthusiasts" (especially here on a Lexus forum) get caught up in equating "build quality" to being "better". Yes, build quality and reliability are important, especially to Toyota, who built its reputation on that. Heck even for myself, I wouldn't buy a base model 4 cylinder car... I'd want it fully trimmed out with the best of materials and a refined engine.

Ultimately however, new car sales aren't driven by build quality or long term reliability, because those who are buying/leasing them when new probably won't have the car eternally. What sells is features and price, and some sacrifice must be taken somewhere. Unfortunately, build quality, materials, workmanship, maintainability, reliability and some mechanical components tend to take a hit as we trade those for more features.

I agree. The 3.5L in my GS350 is a course sounding engine, especially when cold. The 3.0L 1MZ-FE in my V6 Camry is so smooth and quiet by comparison!


I made this thread for dedicated for discussion because I know the community here would be interested. As for the video traffic... I'm laughing because ClubLexus brings in a mere 0.3% of my viewership.

Here's my understanding from an engineering perspective.

Let's say there are three main stages of creating a car, design, engineering and production. When a car is "designed" (as you state above, by a design team), it typically refers to the physical aspects of the design as it relates to the PR/marketing requirement of the company. For example, the layout of the dashboard, or the physical looks of the sheet metal. Sure, these can be separated per vehicle brand/model and are unique. A design theme is then chosen.

However, when it comes to the engineering stage, many things change. Mechanically speaking, its standard practice to reuse up to 70% of existing parts in the company's parts bin. This is driven mainly by cost and supply chain and logistic constraints. Since vehicles share platforms, certain components are already a given, such as the powertrain, electrical architecture, wheel base and suspension design. The "design" that each individual team came up with must now scale onto these platforms to make the concept a reality for production. Engineers always have to fight battles between design teams and finance teams to get things to work right and satisfy both parties. The reality here is a family set of vehicles is created with the same attributes, regardless of what brand it is marketed under, with the similarities existing in the mechanical components where customers typically don't see. The design is then finalized for production.

Production engineering takes over and is responsible for taking the engineered components and creating tooling, fixtures, robots, assembly lines, inspection procedures, part sourcing, etc to make it happen. Since cars are mass produced, they must be designed for manufacturing. Feedback is given to the engineers who must tweak designs even more to make parts and assemblies manufacturable.

Needless to say, the process of creating a car is far more complicated than "one design team for each brand". Due to many factors, designers aren't free handed when it comes to design, nor are engineers responsible for cost cutting measures, or is production responsible for you having to drop an entire sub-frame to change a control arm! As crash safety and emissions regulations tighten further, cars are becoming very "cookie-cutter" with each other. That's why I aimed in my mechanical review video to uncover the mechanical aspects of a car - to show you what you don't normally see or pay attention to when car shopping or watching a traditional review.

Stroock639

the 1UZ was literally designed for the LS, it found its way into other cars eventually but toyota designed that engine from the start to take on the best V8s from europe with the LS 400 as its platform

it wasn't sold as a lexus in japan (and elsewhere) since in japan toyota isn't perceived as just some little econobox maker, they've made the crown and century (full size FR layout luxury cars) for over 50 years... but as we saw with the VW phaeton, it doesn't matter how good something is if the brand has already established itself and built a reputation in other areas, so the lexus brand had to be created for the US to distinguish the LS as 'not just a toyota'

this will tell you everything you need to know:

notice how the official toyota video refers to the LS as "a luxury car aimed at the north american market"

Bob04

I've read that BS also and it's nothing more than a marketing talking point. Naive to think that they don't look for way to share everything they possibly can to save money yet fool customers to think they are 2 entirely different vehicles. They are the same cake with different icing.

mmarshall

Bob, with all due respect (and I'm not trying to be argumentative here).....it's one thing to read (so-called) BS, and quite another to go see, evaluate, test-drive, and compare the two vehicles for yourself? Have you actually done any of the latter?

SW17LS

Agreed, and modern cars have a ton of technology and convenience features that cars didn't used to have which is a tradeoff.

Excellent video by the way.

Essentially, they work from the same toolbox.

As we've seen before, you hate the Aviator, but if you actually would drive one and an Explorer they are very different. You would truly not know they were the same chassis.

Toys4RJill

I would be interested to watch a video of older Toyota Truck or a LX450 being taken apart.

Bob04

Show me where I said I "hate" or even said I dislike the Aviator please. I just said someone would have to be stupid to pay almost $90k for one. Then, everyone was in a rush to defend it until they too said they wouldn't pay that much for it.

I actually like it for what it is. A dolled up Explorer. And that is fact. Not sure why everyone has a problem with that. Not that they are the only manufacturer to do that. But most don't try to doll up something from starting at $36K all the way up to $90k. That's quite a range.

Toys4RJill

The price range has gotten wider for the American brands when they do this, however, it really is nothing new. Toyota/Lexus does it too. The Lexus LX570 actually starts as a Toyota Land Cruiser with a 4.0 V6 and 5 speed automatic, rubber steering wheel, base radio. Even the LS400 had life in 1990 at a Toyota Celsior in Japan, in package A, there was no ABS, manual steering wheel adjusting, no sunroof, no heat/radiation absorbing glass, no memory seats, the motorized seat belts adjusters were absent (I think) My own LX450 comes in Land Crusier trim drums. New modern LS500 has the ES350 engine for a China etc etc.

Manufacturers have been doing this for years. You have to really dig in the parts bins and old brochures to view all this. I personally do not care, if has never bothered me one bit.

mmarshall

I don't think you will find very many people here who will defend the QC problems that it is having.

They have a problem with it because, to most of us, it is not a fact. Respectfully, you are about the only person here who seems to think otherwise. These two vehicles do come from the same general platform and drivetrains, and share a few common items from the Ford parts-bin. But that's about it....otherwise, they are two completely different vehicles. Night and Day. If you were blindfolded, you could probably tell the difference between the two just by riding in them and from the tactile-feel of the trim and hardware.

But, of course, you have a right to your views. There are a couple of issues where I have gone against most of the crowd on Car Chat, too.....particularly on Ford and GM's management.

And we've also gotten off-topic...old vs. new Camrys.

SW17LS

The vehicles just feel entirely different. You should drive them.

Would I pay $90,000 for an Aviator? No, but VERY FEW of them are $90k. Would I pay $70k for an Aviator? Yeah.

Toys4RJill

I am surprised you view it this way. I thought you would of thought otherwise. I view the Aviator as a top high end spec Explorer. Yes, lots of differences, but the guts are the same. It’s like the Explorer is the building blocks of the Aviator. Like Tahoe is for Escalade. Like Camry is for ES as per this thread. I just can’t see vehicles like this not be developed side by side with shared access by engineers, planners etc.