SW17LS

LOL, Toyota and Hyundai are absolutely competitors. Direct competitors. If you don't think people who buys Hyundais considered buying Toyotas or have bought Toyotas in the past I'm really not sure what to tell you.

Nobody really cares about hybrids...except Toyota.

The 2020 Highlander is just not the best 3 row family crossover on the market. Its bested in several areas by numerous competitors, some that are quite old, which is inexcusable for an all new clean sheet design from Toyota. The 2020 Highlander should put everybody else to shame, and it just doesn't. Read the reviews, my assessment of this isn't unique.

Its not "just 1 inch of third row legroom:", the vehicle overall is just a little too small. Its surprisingly not as refined as some competitors, louder, packaging isnt as good. The segment has moved on from the previous Highlander in a lot of ways, and really the 2020 is just the same Highlander redone, which wasnt the right move.

They make several products that are just better, sorry. Doesnt matter if they don't sell as well as Toyotas, like I said people are buying Toyotas because they are Toyotas. I have a hard time seeing how a consumer would look at a Palisade or Telluride and a Highlander and without brand coming into play, would choose the Highlander. In fact, I would choose almost any other 3 row crossover outside of the Pilot, which I don't like over the Highlander.

And its not just Hyundai, lots of manufacturers are just making way better cars than Toyota today.

For family buyers like me, the third row is the whole purpose of buying the vehicle. If it werent for the need for a third row, none of these vehicles would even be under consideration. Thats why they call it a three row crossover.

Toys4RJill

. The previous Highlanders never was the so called best cross overs. They were competitive, they always have been, they play it safe. I think you are hung up on the 3rd seats IMO, have you ever considered that just maybe, existing Toyota buyers of the last Highlander just do not want a huge 3rd row seat?

Toyota is still farther ahead of Hyundai, by a long shot. Direct competitors, they are not.

SW17LS

Like I said, the third row of seats are the whole point. My view is warped?! I'm an active consumer in this segment, I am actually buying a 3 row crossover this year. Yet my view is warped? You don't have children and would never buy a 3 row crossover, so I would suggest your viewpoint isnt as valid as those of actual consumers in the segment. Third row doesn't matter to you, we get that but it matters a lot to people who actually buy 3 row crossovers. Your view of not caring about the third row in a 3 row crossover is whats warped.

When the previous Highlanders were out, they were actually very good. Highlander was one of the first crossovers to even offer a third row. They've just been left behind in design.

The best example is this, I would put my mother or my brother and sister in law in the third row of the Palisade (or the Atlas, or the Traverse, or the Pathfinder (and the Pathfinder is OLD), etc etc) with our kids and their carseats in the second row. I wouldnt do that with the Highlander, theres not enough space in the third row. So, as a vehicle where my primary purpose is to be able to do that, the Highlander gets crossed off the list.



Nobody buying a big family vehicle complains about having too much space. A few inches here and there and nobody would have found them a negative.

Quote:

Toyota is still farther ahead of Hyundai, by a long shot. Direct competitors, they are not.

Absolute direct competitors. To claim they arent is absurd.

Toys4RJill

Don't put words into my mouth. I never said I do not have children. For an empty nester, the Highlander is just perfect as you don't need the giant third-row seat section, but you can take the grandkids when there is a full moon out. I have said this so many times to you, Toyota is appealing to a slightly different DEMO than you. You don't even own a 3 row crossover, you own a van and the Sienna is the perfect Toyoto for your 3 rows you say you need.

Warped view was the wrong word, so I removed it.

So buy the Palisade...Some don't have the desire to put the kids in the middle and the adults in the back.

Toys4RJill

When Hyundai has a full-size sedan, a mid-size truck, a full-size truck, a body on frame 4Runner SUV, a Land Cruiser, and van with awd.....more hybrids across most if not all of the range, THEN they are direct competitors. The Camry has a V6 while the Sonota says under 200hp with I4t .....Toyota is a full-line manufacturer along the lines of Ford and GM.....Hyundai is nowhere close to Toyota.

JDR76

For me, it doesn't really matter what Toyota was doing in the 90s, the past history of Kia/Hyundai, whatever. Just what is out there now.

And what is out there now is a lot of really good choices in the segment. I think car buying is an emotional experience for many, myself included. I can look back at any car I have ever purchased and say that I could have purchased a competitor with more power, or one with more room, or one with a better warranty, or...whatever. I just buy what speaks to me and don't really worry if others think I could have purchased something that was a better choice.

With regards to the new Highlander (thread subject) I think they are really nice and I think Toyota did a great job. Yes, I think there are things they could have done better, but that can be said of many (all?) vehicles. My current Highlander is not the best at all things, that's for sure, and yes it has a small 3rd row, but it suits us very well and we've long felt the whole package was the perfect family vehicle for us. (My wife won't budge from a hybrid, so regardless that knocks out most of the competition anyway) I think we would feel the same about the new one should we have one of those (no plans for that, though). I'm not personally hurt nor offended if someone thinks Toyota missed the mark on a vehicle that I like.

Cheers to you all for the lively discussion.

SW17LS

I don't want a minivan. A minivan and a 3 row crossover are different segments.

Its not a different demo, its the same demo Toyota just isn't hitting it right. If you look at the dimensions of the Palisade and the Highlander, they are very close. Toyota could have made very few tweaks to size and packaging and had a much better vehicle on their hands, and you would never have complained about the slightly bigger footprint, yet I would have the space that I need. That would have resulted in a better vehicle. The Palisade isnt even 2 inches longer than the Highlander.

People with kids in carseats do, because they don't want to have to rearrange and reinstall all the carseats to go out to dinner.



They dont have to compete in EVERY segment to compete in some segments. The Accord doesnt have a V6, does it not compete with the Camry? Of course it does.

pbm317

Turning, this around, then Toyota cannot compete with GM and Ford until they get Heavy Duty Trucks, until they get true Full Size Body On Frame SUVs like Suburban, Expedition Max, until Toyota makes diesels available in the half-ton truck class, until Toyota and on and on and on. This is ridiculous "logic"

Toyota and Hyundai are DIRECT competitors. Maybe not in every little sliver of segment or configuration, but that's not what it means to be a "direct" competitor. Good grief what kind of haphazard logic and dual standards and moving goalposts can you come up with next?

Toys4RJill

So, some Hyundai models compete with Toyota.

Here is a perfect example of where Honda and Toyota are ahead of Hyundai. The Toyota Camry with a base engine is a 204hp motor, the optional motor is 300+ and is a V6 used in the GS and (I think) LS500h. Honda is clearing 252hp with their top Accord engines. Hyundai on the other, despide have a .5 litre larger engine, maxs out at 191hp....the engine technology in a Toyota or Honda is superior to that of the brand spanking new Sonota...this is just one part where they are ahead. There is no awd Sonota that I know of, but there is a Camry awd coming. Now, for the Highlander, the competitive advantage over the Palisade is not the third row, it is other things, like more standard hp from a smaller engine or a hybrid option that the Palisade has no offerings.....it is not all just the 3rd row seats. I believe there even three awd systems for the HL, one of the them is the new torque vectoring, I have no idea if the Palisade has torque vectoring, but they do not have three options that is for sure.

Toys4RJill

I think you could say they compete in the full-size truck segment, but nowhere near as competitive.... but NOT the heavy-duty that is for sure. Toyota sells forklifts in the US and hand jack pumps, I think GM has hydrogen buses and Hyundai definitely has ocean container shipping crates....Hyundai 100% does the competitive line up as Toyota does.... But I get your point.

SW17LS

Toyota and Hyundai are competitors. They dont both service exery exact same segment but that doesnt mean they aren't competitors. See pbm's post above for the issues with your logic.

I agree Toyota is ahead, thats obvious, but Hyundai Is working hard to redesign their cars and make them the best they can be each model at a time, and they are getting better and better. What I dont see from Toyota is the drive and attempt to make their cars better and better like I see from Hyundai, and I see more than Toyota from Honda, I see that drive in other companies too like Mazda.

You keep trying to move the issue of the Highlander away from the third row of seats, but that is the feature that DEFINES this segment of vehicles. The segment is named after that feature! Family vehicle buyers don't look at horsepower and torque vectoring and whatever more than they look at space and comfort for their families. Thats the whole point of buying such a vehicle is what you miss. NOBODY is going to say "I really like that there is less room in this third row"

As for hybrids, the only company focusing on Hybrids is Toyota. If people want to buy a hybrid, thats really their only place to go. I'm not a hybrid guy, in fact I avoid hybrids so that doesn't bother me.

geko29

Exactly--it was an example. It is superfluous to try to make a point by detailing every single model that was ever made. My point is about many (not all) Toyota/Lexus models being better vehicles than everything they competed with at the time, which is not the case any more, at least not with any consistency. Sales numbers, though certainly related to quality, are irrelevant in this context.

situman

I've always thought competitors would mean they play in the same segment vying for the same customers in those segments. WHo would you say the Palisades/Telluride twins compete with?

mbarron37

I like the idea of 3-row SUVs. Toyota has been slow to respond to changing customer preferences, so maybe they are finally getting the memo?

For me, I will always choose the vehicle that I like best and not base solely on past performance. Toyota needs to up its game as other manufacturers appear to be hungrier and certainly less complacent.

I still like Toyota, but it’s not a given I will purchase another one. Happy Friday!

Toys4RJill

Like I have said before, Toyota is appealing to a demographic that is different than the Palisade buyer. They have said it, young families and empty nesters. Palisade is different, older millennials and younger Gen-Xers with large (or growing families), If you want to disagree with me, that is fine. Not every 3-row crossover is going to appeal to every family out there. Just observe the marketing for the two models, they are geared completely different. 35% of Highlander buyers are retired, this is 10% higher than the average in the segment and the average age of Highlander buyers is 59 years of age.

Here is something on the Palisade demographics:
Source

Disagree all you want with me.

Owners look at LOTS of things for different brands and different cars.

Here are some stats about the Highlander, disagree with me that the 3rd is the defacto all you want.
Source

Think about it: the best selling mid-size crossover is the Highlander, just maybe Toyota knows what their buyers want