JDR76

Crazy, I hadn't noticed that but you are right! I agree they should have given it its own wheel design.

On my folks' RAV4 Limited they have the 5 spoke wheels, but maybe that's because it's a hybrid.

SW17LS

Oh, totally...and thats my point. Toyota isn't trying to gain buyers anymore, just servicing Toyota people.

And I'm pretty brand loyal. I've owned at least one Toyota since 1998, and I would like to keep buying Toyotas I just won't buy a vehicle that doesn't suit my needs as well as a competitor just because its a Toyota like many people will. Like you said, they won't even investigate or seriously consider the competition.

Its like Toyota/Lexus designs their cars in a vacuum, and never even looks up to see what competitors are doing, and thus they're behind the curve in so many areas. You see it in space efficiency in the Highlander, the age in the Sienna, the way they are going against the trend towards more luxurious cars vs sportier dynamics with Lexus and cars like the Camry and Avalon.

As problematic as my Pacifica is as an example, I wouldn't trade it for a Sienna because its not a very good product. I'd trade it for an Odyssey in half a second.

Toys4RJill

If you look at the US car market, it was predicted to shrink prior to the 2020 pandemic, which tells me that growth will be limited for all brands. Only my observation, Toyota is doubling down on what they do best for their owners, Toyota wants to keep its brand strong among those who like their cars. Toyota's brand strength for growth is its hybrids which is off the charts. Toyota is the only manufacturer that is strongly committed to their cars such as Camry, Corolla, and Avalon whereas the niche segments where they have strategically partnered with Mazda, Subaru and now BMW.

This is actually incorrect, as Toyota has increased its market share in world markets where they are more likely to gain more traction among new buyers.....Lexus was up 10% in 2019 worldwide to about 800,000 units which is very impressive.

My brother in on his second Sienna, has no complaints. It serves him well and is not problematic. I also have a girlfriend in Virginia Beach who is on their second Odyssey, no complaints either and they kept the old one. I do not know anyone who has a Pacifica, but I read it has been an awful experience.

I thought Toyota was going to go turbos, I was surprised they did not. I am pleasantly surprised they did not go start/stop for their non-hybrids.

Toyota's hybrid options seem to be doing very well I think Toyota will be more well known (compared to other Toyota stuff) for their hybrids 10 years from now as there are upcoming generations that are growing up with the parents who own them.

SW17LS

The overall market shrinking doesn't mean there isn't opportunity for growth. In fact, in general contracting markets are great opportunities to make inroads in market share.

I don't agree.

I'm sure its very reliable. To me its old, outdated, poor technology, uncomfortable driving position. Reliability isn't the absolute most important thing to me. No reason to buy a Sienna in its class except because "its a Toyota"
Hybrids are just a stop-gap to full EVs. Once EVs mainstream hybrid demand will drop. IMHO Toyota has made a big mistake investing so much in "Toyota style" hybrids, and there's a reason why competitors don't really challenge them.

Toys4RJill

I think Toyota sees hydrogen as the end result. A hybrid option now, likely bridges the Toyota customer to that end result better. I am not sure if Toyota is right or wrong. I do know when it comes to reducing emissions, Toyota is more successful with the number of hybrids they offer compared to using the battery resources for EVs. I believe I disagreed with Sulu on this claim, but it appears he was in fact right.
Only IMO, but people will choose a Toyota hybrid over a competing hybrid in the majority of cases. This is because they were first to really pioneer the segment and it has paid off....Toyota would be struggling without its hybrid technology and the brand would not be #1 most valued auto brand in the world.

bitkahuna

iTrader: (20)

won't be limited, there will be negative growth in all car markets.

true, and that's a defensive move against upstart players (we know who they are).

'was' off the charts. and with gas prices having plummeted, it's unclear how attractive hybrids will be but i think a lot of people also buy hybrids because they think it helps 'save the planet' which is their prerogative of course.

i think steve was more referring to the u.s., not the world, but yes, toyota was growing worldwide maybe by just offering models in places where they hadn't before. where it goes from here, no one knows.

wonder why they would want to have TWO Odysseys.

not sure how you disagree with facts.

not sure that's true. tons of people CANNOT own an EV (no way to recharge). in that euro review i posted of es300h they refer to it as a 'self-charging ev'.

not sure it's a big mistake, but i think their hydrogen fc push (coordinated across all japanese brands and their govt) will likely be a dud.

Toys4RJill

True, I don't know if the world markets were declining but Toyota 100% could see growth opportunities in the markets where GM is leaving. I think Europe as well as Australia, same with the US where sedans are gone and Toyota can use worldwide economies of scale to move their Corollas and Camrys at more profitable levels. TH Where Toyota also is creating larger barriers of entry is in the smaller car segment where they have a joint venture with Mazda, and then the sports car segment where they have partnered with BMW and Subaru....I never really understood why they did these joint ventures back when they did, but IMO it becomes much more difficult for competitors to compete when Toyota has these partnerships. I believe Toyota has a new upcoming SUV that will be split with Mazda from a plant in the United States. Toyota has also increased its joint ventures with Panasonic (49%) as well as Denso (I think they own 49% of) Toy aota also has an agreement with a Chinese company to build EVs in China which I think the UX EV and CHR EV are already being sold there.....then there are the Toyota ride-hailing companies in China where there are joint ventures as well.



Are you referring to Hyundai? Hyundai is not an upstart brand. Hyundai is established.

The first was one 15 years old and the trade-in was so lowballed, they just kept it as a third vehicle for hauling bulk items and other chores.

Well yes, they are growing in places where they never were before. Eventually, the US market is no longer an emerging market for a lot of brands.

patgilm

I have been a Toyota loyalist ever since my father bought the first model Camry back in 1982 and have had a Toyota/Lexus in my family ever since. The other car manufacturers I have had were either Nissans or Hondas so I am a huge Japanese car fan but mostly a Toyota fan because I just thought they made a better car. However, that era has now come to an end.as I now own an Americana and German car for my daily duties which I never would have thought I would do. I WAS a Toyota person but because they haven't continued to keep up with the competition in certain respects, I moved on to other brands.

Because I am an enthusiast, Toyota probably realizes that I am in the minority and not worth trying to keep or service as there isn't as much money to be made off of enthusiasts. It's kind of sad because I am/was a Toyota person but I don't see me coming back unless things change but I can say that so far, I am happy with my recent car decisions.

SW17LS

I think you are right, and I think that will wind up to be a huge mistake.

There really aren't any competing hybrids is the point. Competitors have really abandoned trying to compete with Toyota in "Toyota style (read for gas savings primarily) hybrids and I think thats telling that they have done that. The only manufacturer that sees a future in that technology is Toyota, which means Toyota is probably wrong.

Doesn't stop other people here so why not! LOL

All kidding aside, what I disagree with is the conclusion that is drawn from those facts.

That will change with time. On demand quick charging is coming and within 5-10 years will be here.

My sister in law has two Odysseys!

Thats how I feel as well. I am very confident I am driving my last Toyota product.

JDR76

I don't agree with this. I think Hyundai is going after both the Accord Hybrid and Camry Hybrid with the Sonata Hybrid. The Ioniq after the Prius.

Ford went after the Highlander Hybrid with the introduction of the Explorer Hybrid. The CR-V Hybrid and the Escape Hybrid are going after the RAV4 Hybrid.

Toys4RJill

A hydrogen-powered vehicle is an electric vehicle. Toyota already has an electric vehicle with the current Mirai. They also have battery-electric models in China with Lexus UX and Toyota CH-R. Toyota has already said that gas, hybrid plug in as well as EV with battery is part of the future....the end result will be hydrogen-powered cars.

Well, Toyota will be offering plug-in versions of the RAV4 and Highlander, these versions will be more for performance and not just for gas savings. The new RAV4 Prime is supposed to be the fast RAV4 ever, which used to be the V6 Rav4 which was something of a sleeper if I recall, some say the fastest 4 door Toyota brand model ever in the United States...so it is not all just for gas savings.

EZZ

Given hydrogen is 1/3rd as efficient as BEV and given quick charge times will approach 5-10 minutes (if you even need it given you can charge at home), BEV is the ultimate endpoint for most passenger cars. There is also an upper limit on horsepower for hydrogen with the current setup and cost restrictions (near 400hp). I think ICE will be around for many more decades and will occupy share with BEV. Those two should dominate the platforms for the foreseeable future. I don't see fossil fuels going away if the economics favor it vs. Hydrogen (being greener isn't strong enough factor). Economics favor BEVs for certain price points vs. ICE for sure and thats why certain EVs have success right now.

SW17LS

Other carmakers are just not focused on it the same way Toyota is, doesn't mean those competitors don't exist.

As for the Explorer, the Explorer Hybrid is pretty different from the Highlander Hybrid. The Explorer Hybrid is the performance model with the V6, Highlander is a 4Cyl with much less power.

I just don't see the current ramp up in EV charging infrastructure suddenly reversing to hydrogen. The momentum is definitely behind BEVs.

Toys4RJill

The outgoing HL Hybrid matches up better with the new Explorer hybrid. The new HL hybrib is for those who want better mileage with less performance.

There are a lot gas stations that could switch to hydrogen refilling. Big money to be made in that conversion

SW17LS

Another example of Toyota's diverging set of goals for hybrids vs the rest of the industry.

Issue is again, only Toyota is developing hydrogen cars. Thats the sign that they're not the future.