$$$$.....Regular Fuel makes a real difference.
01-13-20 | 08:21 PM
#166
use midgrade as recommended by Ram. A guy did a datalog of the hemi on regular, knock city 5 degrees of timing pulled because of it. I ran some regular for a couple tanks, engine ran sluggish and felt lowsy
01-13-20 | 08:27 PM
#167
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Although Canadian fuels may (?) be different, if you gas up in NY state instead of Ontario, yours is a case where you can maybe use regular, save some money, and deal with only a marginal cutback in power....probably to enough to notice. Check the Owner's Manual first, and Toyota recommendations, and, if you can safely run regular without hearing any pinging, and the engine starts OK both cold and warm (premium gas often has a different vapor-pressure, which can affect drivability), then I'd use it.
However, on an engine with a lot of miles on it like your 4Runner's, also keep one thing in mind. If the engine and fuel system has not been cleaned (or kept clean), there may be carbon-deposits on the pistons and valves. That will artificially increase the compression-ratio of the air/fuel mixture, and (possibly) cause pinging that would not have occurred in a clean engine. If you hear any pinging with regular, go back to the high-test and see if the engine needs a professional cleaning. Sometimes the engine will not actually need major work...the simple detergent additives in the good Tier-One brands, particularly Shell and Chevron, will clean it out for you and allow you to use regular again.
However, on an engine with a lot of miles on it like your 4Runner's, also keep one thing in mind. If the engine and fuel system has not been cleaned (or kept clean), there may be carbon-deposits on the pistons and valves. That will artificially increase the compression-ratio of the air/fuel mixture, and (possibly) cause pinging that would not have occurred in a clean engine. If you hear any pinging with regular, go back to the high-test and see if the engine needs a professional cleaning. Sometimes the engine will not actually need major work...the simple detergent additives in the good Tier-One brands, particularly Shell and Chevron, will clean it out for you and allow you to use regular again.
01-13-20 | 08:31 PM
#168
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Some engines will indeed have a noticeable difference. But, with the majority of them, most drivers will not notice. Indeed, on many web-sites today, the manufacturers, in their specs, actually print the different HP/torque figures (which are usually very close) between regular and premium gas.
01-13-20 | 08:56 PM
#170
Lead Lap
Joined: Dec 2019
Posts: 630
Likes: 72
From: Ontario
If you can find ethanol-free fuel where you live, regardless how much more expensive it is or whether it is 87 or 91, stick to it religiously. Ethanol doesn't belong inside gasoline for a nunber of reasons. If you are paying extra for 91, bottom line you're probably just wasting your money unless the fuel has specific detergents/additives which help to keep your engine clean of carbon deposits. Even then you can just periodically use a fuel system cleaner. If you drive a motor vehicle you are contributing to producing greenhouse emissions, so at the very least, you should do so responsibly. Remember that the quality of fuel in North America is very poor, and buying regular grade ethanol blended fuel for your vehicle is like the worst of the worst.
Americans pay peanuts for gas in comparison to Canadians. You shouldn't be complaining about wasting money on fuel until you come up North and paying nearly $100 a tank for premium fuel.
Americans pay peanuts for gas in comparison to Canadians. You shouldn't be complaining about wasting money on fuel until you come up North and paying nearly $100 a tank for premium fuel.
01-13-20 | 09:20 PM
#171
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
The usual grade of ethanol-fuel in the U.S. is E10 (10% alcohol). That minimizes its effect on lower fuel mileage....ethanol, though much cleaner, also has a lot less energy in it than gasoline. E15 (15% ethanol) is the limit for many auto-warranties, though Ford and GM produce some E85 engines that can run on that fuel where it is offered in the Midwest.
Remember that the quality of fuel in North America is very poor, and buying regular grade ethanol blended fuel for your vehicle is like the worst of the worst.
Americans pay peanuts for gas in comparison to Canadians.
That's why I told Jill that conditions in Ontario, at the gas pumps, may be substantially different from that of NY state just across the border.
And, as per thread-topic, even though the U.S. is cheaper than most of the rest of the world, there is still sometimes a large spread between what regular and premium costs.
01-13-20 | 09:28 PM
#172
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
I suspect it goes by supply and demand. Here in the D.C. area, there is a tremendous vehicle-market (probably second-largest in the country, outside of L.A.) and that means a lot of luxury and high-performance vehicles that require, not just recommend, premium. So, station-owners, around here, can sometimes get away with jacking up the price of 91 and 93-octane.
Just this evening, for example, I filled up at a local Shell place I like, where 87 octane was $2.63 ($2.53 with my Giant-Food discount)...and Plus was $3.03, Diesel at $3.24, and Premium at $3.33. That's a full 70 cents a gallon difference between regular and premium. I'm glad my Lacrosse uses regular.
01-13-20 | 11:36 PM
#173
Racer
Joined: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,419
Likes: 49
From: AZ
If you can find ethanol-free fuel where you live, regardless how much more expensive it is or whether it is 87 or 91, stick to it religiously. Ethanol doesn't belong inside gasoline for a nunber of reasons. If you are paying extra for 91, bottom line you're probably just wasting your money unless the fuel has specific detergents/additives which help to keep your engine clean of carbon deposits. Even then you can just periodically use a fuel system cleaner. If you drive a motor vehicle you are contributing to producing greenhouse emissions, so at the very least, you should do so responsibly. Remember that the quality of fuel in North America is very poor, and buying regular grade ethanol blended fuel for your vehicle is like the worst of the worst.
Americans pay peanuts for gas in comparison to Canadians. You shouldn't be complaining about wasting money on fuel until you come up North and paying nearly $100 a tank for premium fuel.
Americans pay peanuts for gas in comparison to Canadians. You shouldn't be complaining about wasting money on fuel until you come up North and paying nearly $100 a tank for premium fuel.
01-14-20 | 05:12 AM
#174
Pole Position
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 2,617
Likes: 1,195
From: NC
If we are on this forum we most likely really enjoy our rides. I sure do. Naturally we want to treat them the best and if putting premium gas does that for you by all means go for it. Before making a decision I always research and see what the experts recommend. Have used 87 octane in our 2015 RX450h and currently 2017 which both premium is recommended. Experimenting with the other two levels, I have noticed zero difference in gas mileage or performance. I have used 87 in cars that have required premium for over a million miles and have not had one problem.
I always revert back to two MIT graduates that are car mechanics who had a syndicated radio show called Car Talk for 35 years.
http://www.cartalk.com/content/premi...egular-0#myth4
From the USA Today:
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
I always revert back to two MIT graduates that are car mechanics who had a syndicated radio show called Car Talk for 35 years.
http://www.cartalk.com/content/premi...egular-0#myth4
From the USA Today:
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
01-14-20 | 06:22 AM
#176
Lead Lap
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 4,193
Likes: 304
From: Maryland
If we are on this forum we most likely really enjoy our rides. I sure do. Naturally we want to treat them the best and if putting premium gas does that for you by all means go for it. Before making a decision I always research and see what the experts recommend. Have used 87 octane in our 2015 RX450h and currently 2017 which both premium is recommended. Experimenting with the other two levels, I have noticed zero difference in gas mileage or performance. I have used 87 in cars that have required premium for over a million miles and have not had one problem.
I always revert back to two MIT graduates that are car mechanics who had a syndicated radio show called Car Talk for 35 years.
http://www.cartalk.com/content/premi...egular-0#myth4
From the USA Today:
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
I always revert back to two MIT graduates that are car mechanics who had a syndicated radio show called Car Talk for 35 years.
http://www.cartalk.com/content/premi...egular-0#myth4
From the USA Today:
The only modern engines that should really need premium are those with superchargers, which force-feed fuel into the cylinders. "You're driving along and just tramp the gas and the knock sensor cannot sense the knock fast enough in some cases," because the supercharger boosts pressure so fast, says Bob Furey, chemist and fuels specialist at General Motors.
Burning regular when the owner's manual specifies premium won't void the warranty, nor damage the engine, even the most finicky automakers say. "You're giving up perhaps just a little bit of performance that a customer wouldn't really even notice, it's so slight," says Furey.
Also, where I live, premium is only $2.79 right now so it’s not even that expensive to fill up so it’s not worth saving a few $$.
01-14-20 | 07:28 AM
#178
Lexus Champion
Joined: Apr 2007
Posts: 10,166
Likes: 11
From: Southeastern PA
In response to the recent attack on two oil-tankers in the Strait of Hormuz (there is some evidence, but no conclusive proof, that the Iranians were behind it), world crude-oil prices have already taken a jump, merely on the speculation that it will become more dangerous for tankers in that area, and supplies could be disrupted. (It doesn't take much, in that part of the world, to make oil-investors panic and bid prices up). The point of this thread, though, is not to get into international politics, or debate how to respond to it as a nation, but simply point out that it is likely that we will probably be paying at least a little more to fill our vehicles shortly, as those crude-increases work their way through the system and get down to the gas-pump level. We are already into mid-June, of course, and past the initial jump in gas prices that often occurs just before school lets out and vacation-season (with increased driving) starts. This year, interestingly, we saw a significant jump in April and May, but, in the last few days, a slight decrease....until the two tankers were attacked. How much prices at the pump will jump over this latest incident remains to be seen...but many states have a phone hotline, which goes directly to the Attorney General's office in that state, if customers encounter huge increases at the pump that look like obvious gouging. I can remember, once, right after a major hurricane on the Gulf Coast that took out a number of refineries, prices here in the D.C. area (over 1000 miles away) jumped at the pump by as much as $1.00 a day....regular 87 octane went from less than $3.00 a gallon to some $5.50 in less than three days. That's when the hot-line was initiated to deal with it.
I don't think we will see anything crazy like that over one or two tankers, but don't be surprised if you do see some mild increases in the next week or so.
I don't think we will see anything crazy like that over one or two tankers, but don't be surprised if you do see some mild increases in the next week or so.
Well, I'm probably not telling many of you on Car Chat what you don't already know (or have figured out)...and, if that's the case, feel free to skip on to the next thread. But, for those of you who are new to the world of vehicle-ownership, and/or don't have a lot of experience actually paying the bills (maybe some of you younger people are still at home, riding in or driving your parents' vehicles), economic reality will eventually come. When it comes time to start paying the bills, what you put into your gas tank, where you buy it, and any discounts along with it, especially over time, can make a real difference.
Don't get me wrong. I have long believed the old axiom (which, IMO, still applies today) that if one can afford a vehicle, he or she can afford to keep it filled up. But that is no excuse to be careless or waste money while doing so. A significant waste, at least IMO, is when vehicle owners use expensive premium fuel when it is not actually required, and much less expensive 87-Octane regular will do fine. Due to the way engine-computers are programmed today, the engine will make perhaps a few extra horses or foot-pounds of torque with the premium fuel (because the computer advances the spark-timing a little), but it is usually marginal, and most drivers will never notice the difference in normal driving. What you WILL notice (often big-time) is the large difference in price between 87 Octane regular and higher-octane gas. Unless you are experiencing spark-knock/ping in the engine, which will sound like high-pitched tapping noises (not to be confused with the tapping from solid-lifters or low oil-pressure), or unless the Owners' Manual specifically says that Premium is REQUIRED (not just recommended), which is the case in some luxury and high-performance vehicles, the engine will usually run just fine on regular...at a much lower cost. In my area, although there are a few rip-off-stations, 87-octane is currently running between about $2.40 to $2.80, with Plus (91 Octane) between $3.00 and $3.20, and 93-Octane High-Test $3.30 to $3.40. Sometimes you can get a discount through your grocery store with Bonus-points on your grocery card, as with Giant Food and Safeway in my area....and the oil companies themselves offer discounts with their own Bonus and credit cards. But the point is that, in many cases, regular can safely be used, at a big savings in cost.
It used to be that premium gas kept your engine cleaner because more detergent-additives (as per the higher price) went into it. But, today, even regular gas, at least among the Top-Tier brands, has enough additives to keep the fuel system and engine reasonably clean, although some Direct-Injection engines may eventually have problems because of the way they actually spray the fuel into the cylinders, bypassing some places where the deposits can often build up.
To help you find Top Tier stations, here is a general list: Any of these fuels on the list will probably be better for your engine than what you will find at Ma-and-Pa stations, although I particularly like Shell and Chevron, and have generally had my best experience with them. I pretty much use Shell today because Chevron stopped selling in the D.C. area, Shell discounts are available through Giant Food, and Shell has a V-Power detergent package almost as good as the superb Techron package that Chevron uses.
https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/
Don't get me wrong. I have long believed the old axiom (which, IMO, still applies today) that if one can afford a vehicle, he or she can afford to keep it filled up. But that is no excuse to be careless or waste money while doing so. A significant waste, at least IMO, is when vehicle owners use expensive premium fuel when it is not actually required, and much less expensive 87-Octane regular will do fine. Due to the way engine-computers are programmed today, the engine will make perhaps a few extra horses or foot-pounds of torque with the premium fuel (because the computer advances the spark-timing a little), but it is usually marginal, and most drivers will never notice the difference in normal driving. What you WILL notice (often big-time) is the large difference in price between 87 Octane regular and higher-octane gas. Unless you are experiencing spark-knock/ping in the engine, which will sound like high-pitched tapping noises (not to be confused with the tapping from solid-lifters or low oil-pressure), or unless the Owners' Manual specifically says that Premium is REQUIRED (not just recommended), which is the case in some luxury and high-performance vehicles, the engine will usually run just fine on regular...at a much lower cost. In my area, although there are a few rip-off-stations, 87-octane is currently running between about $2.40 to $2.80, with Plus (91 Octane) between $3.00 and $3.20, and 93-Octane High-Test $3.30 to $3.40. Sometimes you can get a discount through your grocery store with Bonus-points on your grocery card, as with Giant Food and Safeway in my area....and the oil companies themselves offer discounts with their own Bonus and credit cards. But the point is that, in many cases, regular can safely be used, at a big savings in cost.
It used to be that premium gas kept your engine cleaner because more detergent-additives (as per the higher price) went into it. But, today, even regular gas, at least among the Top-Tier brands, has enough additives to keep the fuel system and engine reasonably clean, although some Direct-Injection engines may eventually have problems because of the way they actually spray the fuel into the cylinders, bypassing some places where the deposits can often build up.
To help you find Top Tier stations, here is a general list: Any of these fuels on the list will probably be better for your engine than what you will find at Ma-and-Pa stations, although I particularly like Shell and Chevron, and have generally had my best experience with them. I pretty much use Shell today because Chevron stopped selling in the D.C. area, Shell discounts are available through Giant Food, and Shell has a V-Power detergent package almost as good as the superb Techron package that Chevron uses.
https://toptiergas.com/licensed-brands/
Last edited by bitkahuna; 01-14-20 at 09:04 AM.
01-14-20 | 08:01 AM
#179
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Can always count on @mmarshall for consistency!
Not really. In this case, it was, at least IMO, a slightly different subject...though with similarities.
Oh, and, BTW, bitkahuna has asked members, on Car Chat, not to re-quote / re-post large blocks when replying to someone else's post.....it sometimes uses up a lot of needless space. Just re-quote the references.
Last edited by mmarshall; 01-14-20 at 08:09 AM.
01-14-20 | 08:06 AM
#180
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,715
Likes: 89
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs