Battle betwen generations Lexus LS
03-06-20, 12:25 PM
#31
but wasn't it late because they tried to add extra features at the last minute after seeing how much the LS came with? also if all these years of watching top gear has taught me anything, it's that europeans will always have a bias toward defending the european product lol
i remember clarkson criticizing the LS essentially for being 'too good' and therefore lacking theunreliability and poor build quality soul of european cars at the time
but believe me i'm definitely not only relying on wikipedia for that, if you google wolfgang peter w140 you get a few results saying that he was fired over how the w140 was excecuted, although like you said that could've all stemmed from the original incorrect myth
i remember clarkson criticizing the LS essentially for being 'too good' and therefore lacking the
but believe me i'm definitely not only relying on wikipedia for that, if you google wolfgang peter w140 you get a few results saying that he was fired over how the w140 was excecuted, although like you said that could've all stemmed from the original incorrect myth
Those features were not added at the last minute nor was it because of Lexus. MB could not even respond to the Lexus LS 400 via the W140, until 1994 with '95 W140 pricecuts.
They did so with the smaller V8 400 E (W124, later E 420) in late 1991, which had more pricing parity with LS 400 than S-Class and was actually a unicorn in Europe compared to I4 and I6 300 E W124. The 1992 400E was USA focused, under Porsche-built 500 E.
I was trying to say the magazines conjured up that "cuz of LS" rumor to support a new rivalry between the W221 and LS 460, because best believe it, Lexus was on Cloud 9 in early 2006 with the reveal of 4th generation LS. That self-parking, shiatsu-massaging car sold extremely well in 2007 and broke records before 2008 crash. Under 75,000 sold alone in 2007, not including early units sold post September 2006!
I can imagine the stretched out 11 year long 4th generation life cycle, was lost revenue and trying to get back ROI over drastically reduced volume in 2008, 2009, 2010. I think that Lexus product planners and pre-Akio Toyota senior executives in the mid-2000s, fumbled on expectations of LS global sales being no less than 50000 annually and wishes that JDM sales would carry the 4th generation LS.
When that didn't pan out, in 2009 Akio Toyoda refused to redesign it for 2013/14 and forced a heavy facelift in 2012 instead, shifting resources elsewhere. Current LS 500 got off ground in 2012, taking 5-6 years to execute. One sees what happened.
As for Wolfgang Peter, he definitely was fired because of cost overruns dating back to 1986 and 1987, when the specs for W140 started coming together and delays instituted. Lexus did exist in 1986, but LS prototypes weren't really "caught" until late 1987/early 1988, when the first W140 prototypes were also spotted running around.
W140 suffered most in regards to BMW's new flagship, which in turn Lexus hurt too via both the I6 535i and 735i. 740i V8 returned quicker than planned, because of Lexus. V8 would've appeared first in E38 740i in 1994, versus 1992 in E32 2nd LCI.
MB by 1989 was becoming regarded by like Rolls-Royce in a negative sense. Pricey, outdated designs with inexcusably long life cycles and losing touch with younger buyers who weren't rappers or affluent followers of theirs. BMW was becoming a threat. Dated SL roadster since 1971 (barely being replaced), dated S-Class since 1980, dated 190 since 1983 (USA). Their over engineering of the 80s slowed them down horribly.
Early Lexus forced their hand on future car programs signed off post-1989, like 1993 C-Class (began 1986) and 1995 W210 E-Class (began 1987/88). W140 final design was set in December of 1986, with all feature content going into the car being signed off in 1989, before pilot builds began in summer 1990. Peter got fired for spending 10 years overall and negative media reception on misreading the marketplace. I digress lol.
03-06-20, 01:48 PM
#32
2017 Camry got the "swoopy low roof line design" and it certainly has less EPA cubic feet interior space, but apart from that, the 2017 Camry is so much smoother, quieter and more isolated than 2011-17 Camry; ditto new 2018 Corolla too.
03-06-20, 03:00 PM
#35
The LS is not what it used to be and that was done intentionally by Lexus. It still outsold all competitors in 2018 with the exception of the S-class. I am not a fan of the current car not having a V8 and having a smaller interior volume than the outgoing LS, but it's still an excellent car. Not sure what Lexus' sales projections were for this car, but I'm sure they're somewhat satisfied considering the current market for large luxury sedans and sedans in general. If the G90 ever starts to outsell the LS, only then will Lexus maybe revert back the original DNA of the LS.
Publicly stated sales expectations were 12,000 a year. Only got to 9300 in year one. Dropped significantly to 5500 in year two. I doubt it gets much past 4000 this year. Total sales catastrophe.
03-06-20, 03:16 PM
#36
Lexus Fanatic
Finally got around to watching the video above. It really is a shame the ride differences and the interior space differences, because the 5LS is a gorgeous car IMHO
03-06-20, 03:17 PM
#37
How is this different than any other lux brand? The flagship vehicle is never the "bread and butter" seller. What's the "bread and butter" seller for MB? C-Class and GLC? No one would say those models define MB--the S-Class does. Porsche sells way more Cayennes and Macans than 911s. Would you say the Cayenne "defines" Porsche? Or the 911 or even the Cayman? I would argue that the iconic 911 is what "defines" Porsche.
03-06-20, 08:32 PM
#38
The only reason it came in second in 2018 is because it was all new and the 2 class leaders were older and about to be refreshed or redesigned.
Publicly stated sales expectations were 12,000 a year. Only got to 9300 in year one. Dropped significantly to 5500 in year two. I doubt it gets much past 4000 this year. Total sales catastrophe.
Publicly stated sales expectations were 12,000 a year. Only got to 9300 in year one. Dropped significantly to 5500 in year two. I doubt it gets much past 4000 this year. Total sales catastrophe.
Knowing the development stories for both XV70 Camry and XF50 LS 500, only one of them had executive input from Akio Toyoda. He just didn't give a damn, also judging by their respective unveilings years after that.
The last generation LS cost a bundle to develop within 5 years from October 2001 to 2006 and the investment and direction it took, was based too much on expecting the lofty sales numbers of the LS 430. Plus the need to soar higher than sub-$80k LS 430 of yore via more engine options, content, and ATPs.
$120k+ LS 600hL was a big failure and never updated with any regard, for 10 years straight. They should've done a V12, using an updated version of the 1GZ in the Century. Had to be different with a V8 hybrid that few took notice of and wasted potential prestige building of the nameplate & brand.
From what I have observed, Akio Toyoda is primarily interested in easy to engineer moneymakers from FWD architectures or image cars like 2 door coupes such as the RC and LC.
There is no reason why the flopping RC still has presence in the Lexus lineup, other than him making a case for keeping it. Then neglecting to further invest in the midsize GS, handicapping the LS 500 with little to no innovation after a dozen year run of the preceding V8 car, and allowing the IS to wither away.
What standout industry firsts did the 2018 LS even introduce, that even rival Mercedes-Benz or Tesla?
LS should've been at least offered in V6 and V8 grades, still including hybridization. The model mix being too limited, lack of interior room, and polarizing styling have left buyers turned off.
What really makes this car better than an S550 or 750i, other than projected reliability? That right there should be (or should've been) the objective for the upcoming facelift.
A facelift this year would already be premature, for a car only launched 2 years ago, on an ideally 6-7 year run. However, it is needed badly, sooner than later.
(To others) As for a redesign for 2024? Too soon anyway. You cannot go off of the LS 430 nor XF20 LS 400 running 6 years between November 1994 and October 2000 and October 2000 to October 2006 respectively.
The IS has been around already for 7 years, GS is 8 years old, so don't count on a new LS for 2024. More like 2025 = 7 years.
Last edited by Carmaker1; 03-06-20 at 08:36 PM.
03-07-20, 01:16 PM
#39
Knowing the development stories for both XV70 Camry and XF50 LS 500, only one of them had executive input from Akio Toyoda. He just didn't give a damn, also judging by their respective unveilings years after that.
From what I have observed, Akio Toyoda is primarily interested in easy to engineer moneymakers from FWD architectures or image cars like 2 door coupes such as the RC and LC.
From what I have observed, Akio Toyoda is primarily interested in easy to engineer moneymakers from FWD architectures or image cars like 2 door coupes such as the RC and LC.
https://autoweek.com/article/car-new...re-boring-cars
So Toyota Motor Corp did back track to make the current 2017-23 Camry and 2016- 4.5GS smoother and quieter than its 2011-17 Camry and 2012-16 4GS predecessors [calendar years].
However, what about this newfound swoopy low slung design used in 2017- Camry, 2017- 5LS and 2018- Corolla?
Should they back track on the low slung design too?
Mercedes have two separate body styles in the S Class and AMG GT4 4 Door Coupe.
Likewise, BMW have two separate body styles as well in the 7 Series and 8 Series 4 Door Gran Coupe.
Ditto VW with both the Audi A8 luxury sedan and the Porsche Panamera 4 Door Gran Coupe.
Lexus's single intermediate body style in the 5LS is one issue for Lexus.
Even if we accept this intermediate sporting luxury type of design, the other issue for 5LS is that arguably perhaps it isn't as well styled as it should be, with a number of posters quoting the rear 3/4 view as being Infiniti-like in styling.
03-07-20, 04:40 PM
#40
Lexus Champion
Best LS? 98-00 and 04-06 LS430, probably a tie. I would say late model 460s but no, the problems with the original cut that off the list for me.
But let's not talk about old cars, remember?
There's a group of three or four of you who only talk about money and success and how much you pay a month and how much is in your bank account.
Happens all the time, on almost every thread on here.
But let's not talk about old cars, remember?
There's a group of three or four of you who only talk about money and success and how much you pay a month and how much is in your bank account.
Happens all the time, on almost every thread on here.
03-07-20, 08:41 PM
#41
Lexus Fanatic
Anyways, having had both of those cars between the two of them its the 98-00 LS for me, hands down.
There's a group of three or four of you who only talk about money and success and how much you pay a month and how much is in your bank account.
Happens all the time, on almost every thread on here.
Happens all the time, on almost every thread on here.
It's a Lexus forum, of course there are many people here that are quite successful, and we all know what each other paid for cars they have because we know what they cost.
Last edited by SW17LS; 03-07-20 at 08:59 PM.
03-08-20, 07:03 AM
#42
Lexus Fanatic
From my numerous decades of life, and my own life experiences. I have always noticed that those who have wealth, they don't really talk about it or discuss it.
03-08-20, 07:40 AM
#43
Lexus Fanatic
If the 5LS has so much more prestige than the previous models when they were new, why does it sell so poorly by comparison? And it’s not just sedan sales...
03-08-20, 12:36 PM
#45
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
"you know what i'm saying" 