Toyota/Lexus getting rid of most V8s
04-29-20, 05:03 PM
#61
Turbos are not more efficient though. It's impossible to be more efficient when acting as an exhaust impediment when you are mostly out of boost at low power output/cruising/around town. They're just cheaper as you can design a tiny ****box that sputters out emissions at low output, then gives some rubber band power under boost it at the expense of reliability down the road for the customer.
When you are in boost that thing is running richer than an equivalent NA due to safety margins and the rest. Turbos are a meme and a way to get you to pay down the road for your poor buying decisions. More complexity, more stuff to fail and more to fix and pay the stealership/parts manufacturer.
Edit to add an example of efficiency of V8s from real world. Engine size means almost nothing these days.
Stock S2000 'LEV' 2L screamer vs 50s pushrod power 376/6.2L LS V8 swap.
Swap is +30-60kg and most is in the gearbox. Torque is more than tripled with an LS3.
Due to gearing, piston speed/friction losses, 12 years of CFD and more torque at idle than a K24 at peak, an LS3 swapped S2000 is more efficient than the 2L stock 'going out of round bores' F20C. By at least 10-20%..
It triggers the hell out of honda fanboys when I tell them that, but it's the truth. Efficiency isn't just engine size/type.. it's overall configuration and design.
Put that same LS3 on a 4.1 rear with very close ratio box that's highly geared and you'll probably get similar efficiency to the F20C as it'll be spinning faster now.
When you are in boost that thing is running richer than an equivalent NA due to safety margins and the rest. Turbos are a meme and a way to get you to pay down the road for your poor buying decisions. More complexity, more stuff to fail and more to fix and pay the stealership/parts manufacturer.
Edit to add an example of efficiency of V8s from real world. Engine size means almost nothing these days.
Stock S2000 'LEV' 2L screamer vs 50s pushrod power 376/6.2L LS V8 swap.
Swap is +30-60kg and most is in the gearbox. Torque is more than tripled with an LS3.
Due to gearing, piston speed/friction losses, 12 years of CFD and more torque at idle than a K24 at peak, an LS3 swapped S2000 is more efficient than the 2L stock 'going out of round bores' F20C. By at least 10-20%..
It triggers the hell out of honda fanboys when I tell them that, but it's the truth. Efficiency isn't just engine size/type.. it's overall configuration and design.
Put that same LS3 on a 4.1 rear with very close ratio box that's highly geared and you'll probably get similar efficiency to the F20C as it'll be spinning faster now.
Last edited by S2Kiwi; 04-29-20 at 05:16 PM.
04-29-20, 05:41 PM
#62
Pole Position
Can't forget 'bout TRD's pushrod Toyota engine thou........Ecoboost= its more boost then eco for sure.....Another words, go w/ the 5.0. Got to like how Ford came out w/ their new pushrod v/8....as thats a great needed upgrade for the 6.2 v/8 & the 6.8 v/10 motor.....Yea the 'stroke is a $12000.00 w/ the auto, but the new '20 'stroke is a massive upgrade & then you throw that into a Lariat w/ (new for '20) the Tremor package which my brother has a blk one, on order. Great to see V/8's thanx to GM w/ their new LT motors as well as the few varies Ford v/8's including the 5.2 w/ the 180 degree crank + can't forget about FCA's w/ their gen3 Hemi's, my fav is the basic Apache 485hp......as well as the stupid simple bullet proof 6.1......which all it needs is a Muscleperformance deep sump pan & a set of Kook's 2'' headers....
04-29-20, 11:31 PM
#64
Advanced
Never loose sight of the fact that the truck craze is phase in automobile history. Remember the big block gaz guzzler with the fancy wings. They brutally disappeared when the oil crisis started. You just need an unforseen crisis again, and suddenly, nobody will be able to afford an unreliable car with a 25'000$ price tag that gulps half more fuel by design. Also for electric vehicules, the SUV form is amongst the worst form that you can use for long range capable EV.
Also, we already had plenty of cars with disconnectable cylinders. And they where all a sh_t shows. From a reliability standpoint, those where not the good years in this matter. And there is good reasons why their builders got away with those concepts pretty quickly. I don't know exatly why, but it brings more problems than benefits. For a V8, or better, an inline 6, I would rather see water injection becoming a thing in a not so distant future.
One trend I see incoming, and that could be a golden middleway, are the big blocks inline 3's. BMW brought his 1.5L i3, Toyota has now a 1.6 i3, and Koenigsegg brings a 600 hp 2L i3. The advantages of i3's in friction, small packaging and low mass are evident. The vibrations are more present during the run, but the levels of diesel cars or older 4cyl aren't reached either.
Also, we already had plenty of cars with disconnectable cylinders. And they where all a sh_t shows. From a reliability standpoint, those where not the good years in this matter. And there is good reasons why their builders got away with those concepts pretty quickly. I don't know exatly why, but it brings more problems than benefits. For a V8, or better, an inline 6, I would rather see water injection becoming a thing in a not so distant future.
One trend I see incoming, and that could be a golden middleway, are the big blocks inline 3's. BMW brought his 1.5L i3, Toyota has now a 1.6 i3, and Koenigsegg brings a 600 hp 2L i3. The advantages of i3's in friction, small packaging and low mass are evident. The vibrations are more present during the run, but the levels of diesel cars or older 4cyl aren't reached either.
04-30-20, 10:19 PM
#66
Lexus Champion
Never loose sight of the fact that the truck craze is phase in automobile history. Remember the big block gaz guzzler with the fancy wings. They brutally disappeared when the oil crisis started. You just need an unforseen crisis again, and suddenly, nobody will be able to afford an unreliable car with a 25'000$ price tag that gulps half more fuel by design. Also for electric vehicules, the SUV form is amongst the worst form that you can use for long range capable EV.
Also, we already had plenty of cars with disconnectable cylinders. And they where all a sh_t shows. From a reliability standpoint, those where not the good years in this matter. And there is good reasons why their builders got away with those concepts pretty quickly. I don't know exatly why, but it brings more problems than benefits. For a V8, or better, an inline 6, I would rather see water injection becoming a thing in a not so distant future.
One trend I see incoming, and that could be a golden middleway, are the big blocks inline 3's. BMW brought his 1.5L i3, Toyota has now a 1.6 i3, and Koenigsegg brings a 600 hp 2L i3. The advantages of i3's in friction, small packaging and low mass are evident. The vibrations are more present during the run, but the levels of diesel cars or older 4cyl aren't reached either.
Also, we already had plenty of cars with disconnectable cylinders. And they where all a sh_t shows. From a reliability standpoint, those where not the good years in this matter. And there is good reasons why their builders got away with those concepts pretty quickly. I don't know exatly why, but it brings more problems than benefits. For a V8, or better, an inline 6, I would rather see water injection becoming a thing in a not so distant future.
One trend I see incoming, and that could be a golden middleway, are the big blocks inline 3's. BMW brought his 1.5L i3, Toyota has now a 1.6 i3, and Koenigsegg brings a 600 hp 2L i3. The advantages of i3's in friction, small packaging and low mass are evident. The vibrations are more present during the run, but the levels of diesel cars or older 4cyl aren't reached either.
05-01-20, 12:21 AM
#67
I sure as hell won’t be buying a freak’n 3 cylinder piece of garbage. BTW, my 6.2L V-8 gets better Highway mileage than my 450h. It does NOT have cylinder deactivation either.
05-01-20, 12:35 AM
#68
Lexus Champion
And yes, V8 for life.
05-01-20, 05:29 AM
#70
Instructor
As for the turbo downsizing direct injection craze - it has to disappear, like yesterday, but good luck with that in Europe - despite everything, small block "city" diesels are still being made.
Fun fact - my 450h here is more expensive to tax than:
-Anything 3UZ - barely, but still
-Anything diesel with comparable performance, and these are stupidly easy to remap, and always are. The amount of gutted rolling coal BMW M/N57s is... interesting.
Gas costs about the same as diesel ("regular" slightly less, "premium" slightly more - all within 10%).
Taxes generally are based on max horsepower, lab CO2, vehicle weight and engine size - where I live (Bulgaria) it's engine size + horsepower (of the ICE - any EV stuff is tax-free). Fairly obvious why people go for turbos/diesels - maintenance/longevity/actual long-term (and short-term but whatever) emissions performance be damned.
05-01-20, 05:47 AM
#72
Instructor
The atkinson engine (well, L/EIVC) is still an advantage at highway speeds, nevermind the displacement difference. Unless you're doing constant ridiculous speeds (150mph constant or whatever), I'm not sure how the RX can be worse than an SS in the mileage department
05-01-20, 07:00 AM
#74
Lead Lap
Didnt know the camaro SS was also a 5 door crossover?
05-01-20, 07:08 AM
#75
Instructor
I guess drag & weight do play a role
