2021 Venza and Sienna
#271
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We want to replace the ES in the near future, and I'm considering the Venza. My wife doesn't like SUV's or crossovers, but the sedan offerings by Toyota/Lexus leave much to be desired these days. Too, she is hoping to get a 360 degree camera in our next purchase, and the Venza has this. Otherwise, it's going to be a tough assignment to find her a Toyota/Lexus sedan offering, new or used, not to exceed $50K, that has a 360 degree camera.
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#272
Lexus Champion
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(I know that you meant to assuage Wilson2000s concern with this price being an encouragement, but I’m still surprised)
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#274
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I don't think you are a "vanilla enthusiast". Look at what you've had, you've had some non-vanilla cars. Buick is a brand that you're drawn to largely because of what it represents to you, which is not unlike me and Lexus. Your Lacrosse was the big Buick you always wanted.
Thats the point "vanilla" doesnt sell, people don't buy cars because they are vanilla, they buy cars for other reason and don't care that they're "vanilla".
I doubt it excels in comfort at all compared to other similar vehicles.
I may take a look at a Venza next week.....you and Jill have my curiosity in it up somewhat. They are starting to come into local Toyota shops now.
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#275
Lexus Fanatic
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My experience wth people who buy or lease vehicles is that they do so for all kinds of reasons...vanilla or not. Some folks, though, particularly seniors and/or those with weak backs, specifically want something smooth over bumps...they are the ones most likely to avoid stiffly-sprung sport-oriented vehicles.
The issue I have with modern Toyotas, is they aren't designed to be anything but adequate. They've tried to interject some style in to them with mixed results, but at their cores their cars are just nothing special. This Venza is the poster child for "nothing special" "totally adequate". Like I've said before, there is not one Toyota model that is class leading in any way other that fuel economy, or that has a way about it that stands out from the pack. People buy them because they are Toyotas and they are invested in the brand, the majority of those buyers don't cross shop with other brands. They set out to buy a Highlander...or a Corolla....or a *insert Toyota here*.
Toyota rests on their laurels unlike any other carmaker. Lazy.
Well, no, the Venza won't have the comfort of a Navigator, Escalade, Range Rover, or LX570
I can make a list of cars at all price points that I think are special in some way, that really excel in some area and no Toyota would even be a consideration for the list, let alone make it. Except the Supra...and thats because its a BMW. The only Lexus I would put on that list is the LC. The LS I would have before the 500, that car is just too confused.
Last edited by SW17LS; 09-20-20 at 04:11 PM.
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#276
Pole Position
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The fact that you are only considering Toyota/Lexus products proves my point, buyers for this vehicle are Toyota loyalists that aren't really looking outside the brand. If you would look outside the brand you would find there are a lot of great vehicles that will get you the features you want, with more upscale quality feel and will be just as reliable.
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#277
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I'm glad I could help you prove your point! Each of us have different criteria for what is important in a vehicle. "For me," it's reliability. I'm planning on test driving the G80, but I doubt it will go 10 years without any issues, as my wife's ES has. I'm willing to give a little in this regard, but not a lot.
Toyota is not the only company that can make a reliable car like some people here tend to imply. You're not going from #1 in reliability to #34. You're going from #1 to #3...thats a very small statistical difference and you will be fine.
Lets put it this way, I had the worlds least reliable minivan. And I got another one and didnt even consider the Toyota competitor because its just....blah. I'd rather put a car in the shop a few times then drive something that doesn't do anything for me. You're considering cars that are all very similar in reliability to Lexus...you will be fine.
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#278
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Those would not be competitors to the Venza. Compare it to a Blazer, or a Santa Fe, or an Edge, or an Atlas Cross Sport...I will bet you money those cars will leave an impression and the Venza won't. All of those will be as comfortable as a Venza, and as reliable more or less as a Venza, but they have more character, more thought went into their design, their interiors are better, and they will create more of an experience for their drivers.
How does that work? I assume you did not test Venza and compared it to Blazer, Santa Fe, Edge, or Atlas Cross Sport. Instead, you are painting an very broad, inaccurate picture that reflects only your own resentment of TMC, possibly because you think LS is not what it once was?
p.s. Most people believe vehicle you drive is epitome of vanilla.
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#279
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really, so literally almost every vehicle on the market is better than any Toyota/Lexus, with exception of Supra and LC?
How does that work? I assume you did not test Venza and compared it to Blazer, Santa Fe, Edge, or Atlas Cross Sport. Instead, you are painting an very broad, inaccurate picture that reflects only your own resentment of TMC, possibly because you think LS is not what it once was?
How does that work? I assume you did not test Venza and compared it to Blazer, Santa Fe, Edge, or Atlas Cross Sport. Instead, you are painting an very broad, inaccurate picture that reflects only your own resentment of TMC, possibly because you think LS is not what it once was?
p.s. Most people believe vehicle you drive is epitome of vanilla.
Toyota CAN do both.
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#281
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Those would not be competitors to the Venza. Compare it to a Blazer, or a Santa Fe, or an Edge, or an Atlas Cross Sport...I will bet you money those cars will leave an impression and the Venza won't. All of those will be as comfortable as a Venza, and as reliable more or less as a Venza, but they have more character, more thought went into their design, their interiors are better, and they will create more of an experience for their drivers.
Over and above that, I can only go by other reviews, as I haven't personally sampled a Venza. I may (?), however, do so next week...it has my curiosity up.
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#282
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My sister just recently traded in her Murano for a new RAV4 Hybrid. I tried to talk her into looking at the Venza, but she couldn't get past the name and the fact that she really disliked the old Venza. I tried explaining that it isn't related to the old Venza, but she couldn't get past that.
She had so many issues with her 2015 Murano that she was only willing to consider a Toyota product this time around, which surprised me as I thought the Murano with 50k miles was doing well for her, but turns out it wasn't. She briefly considered a new Volvo but was also worried about reliability. She refuses to ever consider a Nissan product again.
The only Toyota product I've had with numerous issues was my Scion tC. That thing was always having issues, which was too bad because otherwise I really enjoyed the car. I traded it in for my 4Runner. I put almost 70k miles on that thing and didn't have a single issue. My 15 GS was also good. Over 3 years without a single warranty repair or rattle. I think my 2011 Tacoma had 2 warranty repairs (squeaky clutch pedal and a noisy interior fan). Both of our Highlanders have been exceptional as well, though to be fair neither have had a ton of miles on them.
We do plan to keep the current GS, Highlander, and Tacoma long term. But with that said, I have no idea what I would replace any of them with should that need arise. They axed the GS and there are no other Lexus sedans that appeal to me. I'd probably move toward a BMW 540i. We don't care for the new Highlander, but if Lexus comes out with a good three row hybrid crossover we'd consider that as my wife misses her RX. If we had to replace the Tacoma, I'd likely just buy another one.
She had so many issues with her 2015 Murano that she was only willing to consider a Toyota product this time around, which surprised me as I thought the Murano with 50k miles was doing well for her, but turns out it wasn't. She briefly considered a new Volvo but was also worried about reliability. She refuses to ever consider a Nissan product again.
The only Toyota product I've had with numerous issues was my Scion tC. That thing was always having issues, which was too bad because otherwise I really enjoyed the car. I traded it in for my 4Runner. I put almost 70k miles on that thing and didn't have a single issue. My 15 GS was also good. Over 3 years without a single warranty repair or rattle. I think my 2011 Tacoma had 2 warranty repairs (squeaky clutch pedal and a noisy interior fan). Both of our Highlanders have been exceptional as well, though to be fair neither have had a ton of miles on them.
We do plan to keep the current GS, Highlander, and Tacoma long term. But with that said, I have no idea what I would replace any of them with should that need arise. They axed the GS and there are no other Lexus sedans that appeal to me. I'd probably move toward a BMW 540i. We don't care for the new Highlander, but if Lexus comes out with a good three row hybrid crossover we'd consider that as my wife misses her RX. If we had to replace the Tacoma, I'd likely just buy another one.
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#284
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My point is, many cars have excellent track records for reliability. You will likely buy another Lexus or Toyota and THAT wont go 10 years without any issues. I've never owned a Toyota/Lexus product that went 3 years with *no* issues, let alone 10. I would absolutely have every confidence a G80 will be as reliable as a Lexus ES, and its a much better car to boot.
Toyota is not the only company that can make a reliable car like some people here tend to imply. You're not going from #1 in reliability to #34. You're going from #1 to #3...thats a very small statistical difference and you will be fine.
Lets put it this way, I had the worlds least reliable minivan. And I got another one and didnt even consider the Toyota competitor because its just....blah. I'd rather put a car in the shop a few times then drive something that doesn't do anything for me. You're considering cars that are all very similar in reliability to Lexus...you will be fine.
Toyota is not the only company that can make a reliable car like some people here tend to imply. You're not going from #1 in reliability to #34. You're going from #1 to #3...thats a very small statistical difference and you will be fine.
Lets put it this way, I had the worlds least reliable minivan. And I got another one and didnt even consider the Toyota competitor because its just....blah. I'd rather put a car in the shop a few times then drive something that doesn't do anything for me. You're considering cars that are all very similar in reliability to Lexus...you will be fine.
One needs to look no further than the reason they kept the Tundra/LC/LX/Sienna/Sequoia essentially unchanged (I don't count the minor refreshes) for over a decade to showcase Toyota prioritizes reliability above all else in a buying - back on topic, the new Venza and Sienna are "safe bets" for Toyota, it shows by Toyota insisting on using the 2.5L hybrid powertrain. I'm sure it'll sell, but the same powertrain that struggles to carry a fully loaded Rav4 Hybrid on an incline will now take my family of 6 + a pet + luggage on a road trip? I'd do the Pacifica or venture with a Telluride/Palisade.
Steve's last point is absolutely on point; for many of us, a vehicle is more than just a "thing with 4 wheels to get us from point A to point B". For those making a vehicle decision an emotional one, there are very few Toyota/Lexus vehicles that would put a smile on your face every time you drove it (I'd say the Supra and LC tops my list). Reliability isn't the sole factor & decision criteria many use to make a vehicle purchase, combine that with the fact there are brands with reliable cars that are emotionally stimulating.
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#285
Lexus Champion
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Couldn't have said it better myself - while Toyota does make overly reliable vehicles, that does not mean Toyota is the only vehicle that can make reliable vehicles. Genesis (for example) is off to a strong start and they legally back up their reliability with a longer warranty that Toyota has not matched. To put this into real-world perspective, visit your local Toyota/Lexus dealership and ask/observe how many cars are getting warranty work.
One needs to look no further than the reason they kept the Tundra/LC/LX/Sienna/Sequoia essentially unchanged (I don't count the minor refreshes) for over a decade to showcase Toyota prioritizes reliability above all else in a buying - back on topic, the new Venza and Sienna are "safe bets" for Toyota, it shows by Toyota insisting on using the 2.5L hybrid powertrain. I'm sure it'll sell, but the same powertrain that struggles to carry a fully loaded Rav4 Hybrid on an incline will now take my family of 6 + a pet + luggage on a road trip? I'd do the Pacifica or venture with a Telluride/Palisade.
Steve's last point is absolutely on point; for many of us, a vehicle is more than just a "thing with 4 wheels to get us from point A to point B". For those making a vehicle decision an emotional one, there are very few Toyota/Lexus vehicles that would put a smile on your face every time you drove it (I'd say the Supra and LC tops my list). Reliability isn't the sole factor & decision criteria many use to make a vehicle purchase, combine that with the fact there are brands with reliable cars that are emotionally stimulating.
One needs to look no further than the reason they kept the Tundra/LC/LX/Sienna/Sequoia essentially unchanged (I don't count the minor refreshes) for over a decade to showcase Toyota prioritizes reliability above all else in a buying - back on topic, the new Venza and Sienna are "safe bets" for Toyota, it shows by Toyota insisting on using the 2.5L hybrid powertrain. I'm sure it'll sell, but the same powertrain that struggles to carry a fully loaded Rav4 Hybrid on an incline will now take my family of 6 + a pet + luggage on a road trip? I'd do the Pacifica or venture with a Telluride/Palisade.
Steve's last point is absolutely on point; for many of us, a vehicle is more than just a "thing with 4 wheels to get us from point A to point B". For those making a vehicle decision an emotional one, there are very few Toyota/Lexus vehicles that would put a smile on your face every time you drove it (I'd say the Supra and LC tops my list). Reliability isn't the sole factor & decision criteria many use to make a vehicle purchase, combine that with the fact there are brands with reliable cars that are emotionally stimulating.
I am curious how it will do in the Sienna, though. That's a substantial reduction in power versus the outgoing model, though it likely has more torque. I remember when the previous Sienna was out and had, I think 210 or 220 hp, and I took one on a trip over the mountains, with 7 people and luggage, and it was definitely loaded down, but it didn't struggle to keep the pace so I suspect this one will be fine too.
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