2021 Venza and Sienna
09-22-20 | 08:35 AM
#286
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,644
Likes: 73
From: ON/NY
Couldn't have said it better myself - while Toyota does make overly reliable vehicles, that does not mean Toyota is the only vehicle that can make reliable vehicles. Genesis (for example) is off to a strong start and they legally back up their reliability with a longer warranty that Toyota has not matched. To put this into real-world perspective, visit your local Toyota/Lexus dealership and ask/observe how many cars are getting warranty work.
One needs to look no further than the reason they kept the Tundra/LC/LX/Sienna/Sequoia essentially unchanged (I don't count the minor refreshes) for over a decade to showcase Toyota prioritizes reliability above all else in a buying - back on topic, the new Venza and Sienna are "safe bets" for Toyota, it shows by Toyota insisting on using the 2.5L hybrid powertrain. I'm sure it'll sell, but the same powertrain that struggles to carry a fully loaded Rav4 Hybrid on an incline will now take my family of 6 + a pet + luggage on a road trip? I'd do the Pacifica or venture with a Telluride/Palisade.
Steve's last point is absolutely on point; for many of us, a vehicle is more than just a "thing with 4 wheels to get us from point A to point B". For those making a vehicle decision an emotional one, there are very few Toyota/Lexus vehicles that would put a smile on your face every time you drove it (I'd say the Supra and LC tops my list). Reliability isn't the sole factor & decision criteria many use to make a vehicle purchase, combine that with the fact there are brands with reliable cars that are emotionally stimulating.
One needs to look no further than the reason they kept the Tundra/LC/LX/Sienna/Sequoia essentially unchanged (I don't count the minor refreshes) for over a decade to showcase Toyota prioritizes reliability above all else in a buying - back on topic, the new Venza and Sienna are "safe bets" for Toyota, it shows by Toyota insisting on using the 2.5L hybrid powertrain. I'm sure it'll sell, but the same powertrain that struggles to carry a fully loaded Rav4 Hybrid on an incline will now take my family of 6 + a pet + luggage on a road trip? I'd do the Pacifica or venture with a Telluride/Palisade.
Steve's last point is absolutely on point; for many of us, a vehicle is more than just a "thing with 4 wheels to get us from point A to point B". For those making a vehicle decision an emotional one, there are very few Toyota/Lexus vehicles that would put a smile on your face every time you drove it (I'd say the Supra and LC tops my list). Reliability isn't the sole factor & decision criteria many use to make a vehicle purchase, combine that with the fact there are brands with reliable cars that are emotionally stimulating.
Just perusing CR today....plenty of models ranking higher that Toyota. A Camry ranks higher than a Mazda6 by 6 points...there are lots of examples.
There are lots of vehicles that rank higher than a RAV4.
Luxury stuff. For example, and MKZ ranks higher than a ES/GS by one point whereas as a BMW 725 ranks 34 points higher than a LS500
As for Genesis reliability...looks messy to me
Last edited by Toys4RJill; 09-22-20 at 08:47 AM.
09-22-20 | 10:15 AM
#287
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 5,080
Likes: 61
From: N/A
Really says a lot about the Venza when most of the discussion isn't even related to the car itself. It'll be interesting to see how it translates to the next-gen NX that sits on the same platform, because the only thing of note to the Venza is its former connection to the Harrier/RX.
The comparisons between the ES and G80 reliability, especially the upcoming model, make no sense. The ES is mechanically and technologically far more simplistic than the aluminum-heavy, turbo-engined RWD luxury sedans that the G80's segment is compromised of. We've seen Lexus take a stab at such a vehicle with the 5LS, and reliability is not one of its strong suits according to CR.
Those who buy these types of vehicles ought to be willing to trade in some level of perceived reliability to reap massive benefits in performance, driving enjoyment, technology, and luxury.
The comparisons between the ES and G80 reliability, especially the upcoming model, make no sense. The ES is mechanically and technologically far more simplistic than the aluminum-heavy, turbo-engined RWD luxury sedans that the G80's segment is compromised of. We've seen Lexus take a stab at such a vehicle with the 5LS, and reliability is not one of its strong suits according to CR.
Those who buy these types of vehicles ought to be willing to trade in some level of perceived reliability to reap massive benefits in performance, driving enjoyment, technology, and luxury.
Last edited by Motorola; 09-22-20 at 10:18 AM.
09-22-20 | 10:22 AM
#288
Thread Starter
Lead Lap
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 4,891
Likes: 12
From: Virginia
09-22-20 | 10:45 AM
#290
Racer
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 1,457
Likes: 45
From: FL
Steve's last point is absolutely on point; for many of us, a vehicle is more than just a "thing with 4 wheels to get us from point A to point B". For those making a vehicle decision an emotional one, there are very few Toyota/Lexus vehicles that would put a smile on your face every time you drove it (I'd say the Supra and LC tops my list). Reliability isn't the sole factor & decision criteria many use to make a vehicle purchase, combine that with the fact there are brands with reliable cars that are emotionally stimulating.
09-22-20 | 11:03 AM
#291
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 58,006
Likes: 2,783
From: Maryland
09-22-20 | 11:14 AM
#292
Pole Position
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,624
Likes: 498
From: CA
Genesis reliability looks great if one is leasing for two/three years. One can argue Genesis reliability is just as good as Toyota reliability, or so close the difference is statistically insignificant, but the data doesn't back this up for someone who buys outright, and keeps a vehicle for 10 years. Again, each person's criteria for a vehicle is different based on each person's particularities and preferences. So, while the Venza may be vanilla, unexciting, not as state-of-the-art, to some, it's just what the doctor ordered, for others.
I'm open-minded toward other brands, and applaud their progress. This progress pushes all manufacturers to make better products. I'm looking forward to test driving the G80 to see if the accolades live up to the hype. I'm willing to forgo some degree of reliability for the performance, technology, and excitement advantage of the G80. However, until the data proves differently, Toyota's reliability is still an important factor in the decision making process, "for me."
I'm open-minded toward other brands, and applaud their progress. This progress pushes all manufacturers to make better products. I'm looking forward to test driving the G80 to see if the accolades live up to the hype. I'm willing to forgo some degree of reliability for the performance, technology, and excitement advantage of the G80. However, until the data proves differently, Toyota's reliability is still an important factor in the decision making process, "for me."
09-22-20 | 11:21 AM
#293
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 58,006
Likes: 2,783
From: Maryland
I would be totally confident buying a Genesis and keeping it 10 years.
09-22-20 | 11:28 AM
#294
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 5,080
Likes: 61
From: N/A
Rule of thumb for all new vehicles is to wait a model year before buying. The '15 Genesis had quite a few annoying issues, and I'm sure the upcoming one will as well. Even the '19 ES had some bizarre sound system problems.
09-22-20 | 03:11 PM
#295
Lexus Champion
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 19,935
Likes: 164
Really says a lot about the Venza when most of the discussion isn't even related to the car itself. It'll be interesting to see how it translates to the next-gen NX that sits on the same platform, because the only thing of note to the Venza is its former connection to the Harrier/RX.
Fact that people discuss it without willing or having any interested in trying it is something else, but they are really well rated vehicles by press and drivers.
The most incredible thing about these new Toyota's is that they actually do leave impression. For instance, my friends 2019 Corolla Hybrid has better overall suspension than my 2015 Audi A7 Premium, with pretty much almost every option ticked. So I do not wonder how Toyota managed to sell 10 million vehicles last year at record high 24 billion in profit.
09-22-20 | 03:16 PM
#296
Lexus Test Driver
Joined: Mar 2020
Posts: 5,080
Likes: 61
From: N/A
Rav4 and Venza are considered premium luxury? Maybe in China, but you would never fool a Lexus buyer with those two offerings.
There's no doubt this vehicle will sell, but the same can be said about almost every compact crossover out there made by any reputable company. There's little to talk about the car itself that makes it stand out against the rest of the segment, especially as none of us can even drive it yet.
There's no doubt this vehicle will sell, but the same can be said about almost every compact crossover out there made by any reputable company. There's little to talk about the car itself that makes it stand out against the rest of the segment, especially as none of us can even drive it yet.
09-22-20 | 03:56 PM
#297
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,591
Likes: 88
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
Rav4 and Venza are considered premium luxury? Maybe in China, but you would never fool a Lexus buyer with those two offerings.
There's no doubt this vehicle will sell, but the same can be said about almost every compact crossover out there made by any reputable company. There's little to talk about the car itself that makes it stand out against the rest of the segment, especially as none of us can even drive it yet.
There's no doubt this vehicle will sell, but the same can be said about almost every compact crossover out there made by any reputable company. There's little to talk about the car itself that makes it stand out against the rest of the segment, especially as none of us can even drive it yet.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-23-20 at 07:52 PM.
09-22-20 | 08:16 PM
#298
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: May 2012
Posts: 58,006
Likes: 2,783
From: Maryland
Watched a couple videos of the Sienna, I actually like a lot about it, but I can’t help feeling like it’s a minivan designed for people who don’t have kids, the top trims with the lounge seats that don’t stow or come out in any way and the big console that juts into the rear area, just not a setup that is conducive to traveling with kids or using the van for utility.
Almost reminds me of the idea of a luxury van with adult seating in the back on trips the main focus. Odyssey and Pacifica seem much more family focused. Interesting choices by Toyota.
Almost reminds me of the idea of a luxury van with adult seating in the back on trips the main focus. Odyssey and Pacifica seem much more family focused. Interesting choices by Toyota.
09-22-20 | 08:44 PM
#299
Pole Position
Joined: Jan 2020
Posts: 2,624
Likes: 498
From: CA
My kids are adults now, so I could see the Venza or Sienna fitting my needs. I've never lifted removable seats, but I hear they're heavy (for seniors especially). The storage of the seats is another hurdle, so the Pacifica hit a home run with their stow-able seats many moons ago. However, after having many Chrysler products in a fleet I managed, I couldn't bring myself to buy one. Lease perhaps.
09-23-20 | 07:49 PM
#300
Lexus Fanatic
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 91,591
Likes: 88
From: Virginia/D.C. suburbs
I checked out the new Venza today in static-reviews of the XLE and Limited (I'll do the test-drive later this week, and write up an MM-Review).
VERY impressed with the overall fit/finish, exterior sheet metal quality, paint job smoothness, and materials used inside, although the tacky-looking/tacky-mounted video-screen should have probably been integrated into the dash like GM and Kia does. You also get a temporary full-size spare instead of the donut/run-flat/air-bottle crap.
Jill..........except for the screen-mount, you were correct about the nice interior.
VERY impressed with the overall fit/finish, exterior sheet metal quality, paint job smoothness, and materials used inside, although the tacky-looking/tacky-mounted video-screen should have probably been integrated into the dash like GM and Kia does. You also get a temporary full-size spare instead of the donut/run-flat/air-bottle crap.
Jill..........except for the screen-mount, you were correct about the nice interior.
Last edited by mmarshall; 09-23-20 at 07:53 PM.