Stroock639

i think they're printing enough money right now with the 4runner lol

tex2670

I think it's fair to assume that Toyota has a well-staffed market research dept, and if they could be printing money by selling an updated 4-door FJ that would give the Wrangler a run for its money, they'd be doing it.

I'm not saying it wouldn't be cool...but that cool factor needs to translate to enough sales to justify it.

Blaze876

iTrader: (1)

not because they have a well staffed market research dept means they are always right.

I am sure you would probably agree that a actual usable 7 seater lexus crossover would print money but Toyota has sat on their laurels while every german manufacturer have been making a killing on their 7 seater crossover.

That same market research team released the RC and LC that are doing terrible in sales numbers because they thought 2 coupes would sell well vs releasing 2 new luxury crossover.

pbm317

Exactly right and crucial examples. Obviously no one has a crystal ball, and Toyota was expecting gas prices to continue to climb and the demise of body on frame SUV's that aren't full size a la Suburban, Expedition, etc. They've put some more lipstick on the 4Runner and the rising tide of SUVs has helped lift this one as well, but as most people here know, it's still woefully behind. It was behind the times nearly 10 years ago when it came out let alone today. Toyota is a profitable automaker, not because they have the best products, but because have chosen to be in the middle of the road consciously. They are okay with not maximizing every opportunity because they feel it shelters them from the lowest of the valleys.

I'm not saying I agree with this strategy, just explaining my experience and exposure to the Toyota way.

If they had made a significant redesign of 4Runner even a couple years ago, let's leave FJ out for now, they could very well challenge Jeep Grand Cherokee's overall sales and market share. I could've seen 4Runner go Grand Cherokee style and mix in some better uplevel trims to align with the Overland/Summit, etc. While letting the FJ tackle the off road purists with better approach/departure angles, beefier axles, etc. This was the Lexus strategy to use IS/ES as the Sport Sedan/Executive Sedan in similar price tiers vs a one size fits some.

Blaze876

iTrader: (1)

Agreed with the strategy you say Toyota employs. I don't blame them for taking that approach either because it certainly could have gone the opposite way with gas prices continuing to rise.

The 4runner reputation keeps it selling. Imagine if it was an actual competitive product. Toyota is such a world wide brand where I believe a new FJ would do really well in other countries too. My home country which is considered "poor" has a landcruiser prado for every corolla it seems at times. If not the Prado it is a Toyota Fortuner or Hilux.

mmarshall

One thing that, so far, seems left out of this thread is what effect the upcoming body-on-frame Ford Bronco will have on the market (personally, I think it will do well, but we'll see...I've been wrong before). Bronco sales might be a clue as to the potential market for a new/updated FJ Cruiser....not only in the body-on-frame SUV business, but also because the Bronco, like the FJ, is a retro-design, style-wise.

pbm317

I mentioned Bronco in post #2.

Blaze876

iTrader: (1)

Agreed. If it is a success, then it will take toyota maybe a next 5 years to release a new FJ, who knows, by then the market on these type of vehicles might be in a downturn. With the amount of money Toyota has vs other automobile manufacturers I am not sure why they don't take more risk. Sure there will be some failures, but there will certainly be success stories as well. I feel like toyota use to take more risk, introducing one of the first compact suv in the 90s with the Rav4, one of the first with a luxury crossover with the RX.

mmarshall

OK, good catch..I didn't notice. I think we can both agree the Bronco will be a test.

tex2670

Yeah--no automaker gets it right 100% of the time. But we're all spitballing here on what Toyota "should do", and what would be uber profitable for them, and we don't have a lick of hard market data other than total guesses. So I'm not saying Toyota's right, and CL is wrong. I'm just saying WTF do we all really know about the market that Toyota's somehow missing?

Blaze876

iTrader: (1)

lol true. As other member mentioned. I think this debate can be settled with how the Bronco does.

ryanSC300lover

iTrader: (1)

I love my Trail Team FJ. Funny thing is these days, they are all trading between $29,000-$45,000. MORE than they were new just 6-7 years ago . I am holding on to mine.

My wife's LX570 dime a dozen around here, as are 4Runner. My TTFJ is rare enough, I can find it in a parking lot

Wilson2000

The design and marketing direction Toyota goes in should be in the same direction the public is going. Toyota can put their finger to the pulse of the car buying public by listening more to clubs like CL. They should also do a lot more focus groups with, and surveying of, the car-buying public. The average car enthusiast can be a treasure-trove of marketing information. However, Toyota's VP's, making insane salaries, aren't likely to ask the public, for fear of appearing incapable of making these decisions themselves (justifying their insane salaries). So, we're doomed with whatever they think is marketable.

Knowing the popularity of the original FJ40 and the FJ, it seems like an obvious call to rework the design, fix the problems noted above, and develop a new FJ to compete with, and beat, the Wrangler. Wrangler sets a low bar to hurdle.

Too, I agree with the poster who said the rugged looks of the FJ and Wrangler appeal to women. I was single in the 80's when I owned a FJ40, and was surprised how much of a magnet it was!

tex2670

You are grossly overstating CL's status. Members of CL make up a tiny fraction of Toyota's customer base. Heck--here in Car Chat, lot's of us don't even own a Toyota product. And perhaps Toyota does monitor CL. But they look at sooooo many more data points. CL does not, in any way, mirror the "direction the public is going."

And the popularity of the original FJ40--what relevance does that have 50 years later? The car marketplace is so different today.

Wilson2000

All I wrote was that Toyota should listen more to clubs like CL.

Toyota, and all auto manufacturer's, tend to design and engineer products they think the public wants. Very successful companies focus on their customers. Steve Jobs knew that making his PC's and all successive products customer-friendly would open up the world of computing to everyone. For instance, in the 80's, I hadn't ever touched a computer, most people hadn't, and I never thought I would. Then the user-friendly Mac came along and it changed everything. By 1990, I couldn't do my job without one. Too, in the 90's, I never thought I would buy products on line. Then came Amazon who focused on customer service, and changed the world!

I believe there is an opportunity for an automaker to pull an Apple or a Amazon. GM tried it with Saturn, and Toyota, Honda and Nissan tried it to some extent with their luxury divisions, and all were successful (to some extent). However, I don't think they took it to the necessary extreme of putting the "customer first" in all decision making.

Elon: If you are on-board with this, I'd be happy to come out of retirement to head up your marketing division!