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I look at the discussion there, and there is a problem in all this discussion. An important factor isn't aknoledged.
Toyota and Lexus, are world active brands. They can't afford to loose the european market, so they desperately need to bring down their fleet emission to 95gr/km. If they don't, they will pay billions in fines.
BMW is due to pay billions in fines.
Mercedes is due to pay billions in fines.
Volkswagen is due to pay billions in fines.
For the moment, european car builders try to use covid19 as an excuse for diverting the fines. But it could be devastating for those brand especially if their lobbying tactic fail, this could, honestly, bring them at the verge of their destruction. Since Dieselgate, the opinion in the public has shifted, and the once very respected automobile sector, is now seen with distrust and hostility.
And for 2030, the goal is 75 gr/km. Let's agree that the germans and to some extend, even the french, are not in a position to meet those regulations.
Toyota is simply proactively pushing to meet those emission goals. You don't need 305 horsepower and a 0 to 60 4.8 time for commuting in the midst of the NY traffic jam. Nor to cruise at 80 miles per hour on a free highway. Even 205hp are doing it okay.
Car companies need better spokesmen to tell Euro politicians/govt. they are going to ruin/bankrupt the auto industry with these ridiculous feel good emission standards especially with car companies having to deal with such losses from Covid. It could be cheaper for automakers to just pull out of much of the Euro market then try to meet those ridiculous standards or be fined so much which is passed on to the consumer.
400'000 death in Europe last year. Just because of pollution. Not even speaking about casulaty on the road.
It is a much deeper problem, and we will literally decapitate every lobbyist trying to screw us another time. Since the latest Gilets Jaune riots, we even have fully functionnal reeditions of guillotines ready to chop.
Germans are in a far better position to meet the regulations as they are pushing BEV and infrastructure across Europe. VW even acknowledges this and has pushed development drastically in the last couple years. They will have a large product portfolio in a couple years of BEVs across many different segments and Infrastructure is also being heavily pushed by EU regulators. Toyota is so far behind the EV game in Europe, they'll be left behind if they don't react quickly.
Everybody sees the best elsewhere. But we don't need "the best" to drive around, it must simply be good. If fun is also delivered in the package, I'm not against.
I like the Toyota 4L V8, the 3L inline 6 NA and the 5.0L V8, they are splendid engines.
A Lexus is a luxury car, its not mainstream transportation. When someone choses to buy a luxury car, they do want the best or certainly better than normal. If I didn't want the best, I would drive an Avalon and be done with it for 1/3rd of the cost.
I understand the realities of the European market, but thats why you have options that are unique to each market. The US is a much bigger market for the ES and Lexus in general than Europe. 205HP, if thats what the ES with AWD comes with, is simply not enough to motivate what will be a $55,000 luxury sedan in a satisfying way.
400'000 death in Europe last year. Just because of pollution. Not even speaking about casulaty on the road.
It is a much deeper problem, and we will literally decapitate every lobbyist trying to screw us another time. Since the latest Gilets Jaune riots, we even have fully functionnal reeditions of guillotines ready to chop.
Who did that study/got that number? The govt? Govt. funded universities? Are there conflicting studies? I have a hard time believing so many died just because of "pollution" by cars. Most of Europe's/UK pollution issues in cities were from their politicians forcing dirty diesels on the population from very high gas taxes/prices, now they are forcing electrics but it still won't solve the problem and will likely make issues worse/create new ones. Do they have any plans for the diesel lorries/18 wheelers that are the worst pollution offenders along with ships/aircraft?
A Lexus is a luxury car, its not mainstream transportation. .
I have always thought Lexus straddles the fence between premium mainstream on the lower end models to luxury for the top end models. I would say the ES is premium car, vs a GS which would be a luxury car. But a Toyota Land Cruiser and a LX are both luxury SUVs
I have always thought Lexus straddles the fence between premium mainstream on the lower end models to luxury for the top end models. I would say the ES is premium car, vs a GS which would be a luxury car. But a Toyota Land Cruiser and a LX are both luxury SUVs
Therein lies the issue. They need to decide what they want to be, a luxury car company like Mercedes, BMW or Audi that also has a few low end entry level models, or a premium car company that has a couple high end cars, like say Acura. Right now, the high end Lexus vehicles are a rarity, and the company doesn't focus on them. They focus on the low end vehicles...which leans me towards believing they are no longer intending to compete with the big boys.
The ES has moved upmarket also, mainly because they have brought vehicles in below it in the lineup. Even a premium car though, 205 HP isn't enough to move a car at that price point in a satisfying way.
The ES has moved upmarket also, mainly because they have brought vehicles in below it in the lineup. Even a premium car though, 205 HP isn't enough to move a car at that price point in a satisfying way.
Mercedes E class has a 1.6 I4 Turbo (125hp) in some markets. The ES has a 4 cylinder in some markets too.
Originally Posted by SW17LS
Right now, the high end Lexus vehicles are a rarity, and the company doesn't focus on them. They focus on the low end vehicles..
.
It is cheaper to get into a Mercedes Benz sedan in the USA than it is a Lexus sedan..by almost $6000. It is also cheaper to get into a BMW sedan or coupe than it is a Lexus sedan or coupe by $5000....Should we look up Audi sedan prices?
I don't think an ES with a Camry 2.5 would sell, nor would ES300h with E-AWD.
An ES with 2.0T & AWD might sell, or better still, an ES350p Prime with a 2.5 PHEV & E-AWD with 0-60 in just 5.5 seconds similar to RAV4 Prime E-AWD.
Afterall, the ES and RAV4 share the GA-K platform.
If TMC can RAV4 Prime, then they can always ES Prime.
Below is a schematic diagram of the Prius Prime PHEV using the smaller GA-C platform.
06-05-20, 09:38 AM
