Lexus' New Twin-Turbo V8 Debut On Hold For Now
06-26-20, 01:30 PM
#122
Lexus Fanatic
Can you blame them though is the question? The F brand hasnt moved numbers, the outgoing GS was better then the last 5 and still got outsold, and then global markets only love FWD products over their RWD architecture.
Rwd seems to only work with the big three germans (including global markets), but for some reason not for Lexus, nor the other luxury challengers
Rwd seems to only work with the big three germans (including global markets), but for some reason not for Lexus, nor the other luxury challengers
If the products were compelling, they would move numbers. The GS-F and RC-F were/are too expensive and too outdated, underpowered. They punted on the IS not moving it to GA-L. There is no excuse for Lexus not using the hell out of that great platform...at least build sure thing crossovers on it.
As I've said before, developing FWD based rebadged Toyotas for world markets wouldn't be a big deal if they also provided proper luxury vehicles for those of us on the other end of the spectrum...they aren't. Which is why they aren't really a luxury carmaker anymore.
06-26-20, 01:32 PM
#123
Lexus Fanatic
Probably nothing. My guess is that worldwide regulations are gonna make V8s completely obsolete. So when that happens, the hybrid motors that Lexus offers begin to look more attractive. I also think that the pandemic is going to seriously change buying behaviour.
06-26-20, 01:49 PM
#124
I would actually say that the problem is that Lexus didn't copy the Germans - while also failing to differentiate themselves from the Germans. A lot of the AMG/M/RS vehicles are bloated hp spec monsters, but the RC-F is a bloated car that doesn't even have the horsepower to overcome it. To top it off, it didn't handle well nor did it offer a compelling driving experience, so there was no competitive advantage other than being NA and a Lexus - but those were already implicit. The GS-F was just completely uncompetitively priced (remember the F10 M5 MSRP'd at just over $90k, had way more power, and somehow managed not to be much heavier, to boot). What reason would anyone have to pick these over the plethora of AMG/M/RS options? Even all the GS-F owners I know today bought them used, because none of them were crazy enough to pay anything close to MSRP.
It leaves me sad that Lexus/TMC has been proven to be such a boring and conservative company. Nowadays no one is surprised that a TT V8 is vaporware, or that they're taking iconic historical names like Supra and just slapping them on BMW powerplants. Any steps forward from the LFA or 86 are long gone and forgotten.
It leaves me sad that Lexus/TMC has been proven to be such a boring and conservative company. Nowadays no one is surprised that a TT V8 is vaporware, or that they're taking iconic historical names like Supra and just slapping them on BMW powerplants. Any steps forward from the LFA or 86 are long gone and forgotten.
I also didn't pay close to MSRP. I wanted the improvements that were made for 2020. There were steering and suspension improvements and the rear toe control arm bracket is now made of die-cast aluminum to reduce weight and increase rigidity. What reason did I pick it? It's my 3rd car with Lexus 5.0 V8. It's a masterpiece. Sounds great, all the power I can use, and dead reliable. I also like a car with some good air conditioning in TX. I found the turbo awd cars boring for normal street driving. I know on the M5 and E63 S you can turn off awd, but what happens to your performance advantage when you do? The only car I would consider now would be a 718 GTS 4.0, Spyder, GT4. Much better than the turbo 4 cylinder 718 GTS I had even though it was faster with better balance. And for some reason the Challenger Scat Pack Widebody appeals to me. 6.4 liter naturally aspirated traditional muscle car in retro colors.
Last edited by Frog98; 06-26-20 at 02:04 PM.
06-26-20, 02:38 PM
#125
Lexus Champion
Absolutely I blame them. Its all about product and having good product. Lexus has let the RWD vehicles in their lineup die on the vine, and they haven't developed ANY proper GA-L platform RWD based crossovers that would sell very well.
If the products were compelling, they would move numbers. The GS-F and RC-F were/are too expensive and too outdated, underpowered. They punted on the IS not moving it to GA-L. There is no excuse for Lexus not using the hell out of that great platform...at least build sure thing crossovers on it.
As I've said before, developing FWD based rebadged Toyotas for world markets wouldn't be a big deal if they also provided proper luxury vehicles for those of us on the other end of the spectrum...they aren't. Which is why they aren't really a luxury carmaker anymore.
If the products were compelling, they would move numbers. The GS-F and RC-F were/are too expensive and too outdated, underpowered. They punted on the IS not moving it to GA-L. There is no excuse for Lexus not using the hell out of that great platform...at least build sure thing crossovers on it.
As I've said before, developing FWD based rebadged Toyotas for world markets wouldn't be a big deal if they also provided proper luxury vehicles for those of us on the other end of the spectrum...they aren't. Which is why they aren't really a luxury carmaker anymore.
Otherwise, yes, agreed. WTF is Lexus doing? GS gone, LS no V8., new V8 probably cancelled. What happened to Lexus high end vehicles?
LC and LX are only desirable Lexus models currently on sale to me, and the LX is ancient...I'm just the small minority that doesn't care.
06-26-20, 02:40 PM
#126
Lexus Fanatic
You're assuming Lexus even makes this "LQ" there is no evidence that they will, and I have no faith that they will given their prior rollouts.
06-26-20, 02:47 PM
#127
Lead Lap
I don't think it has much to do RWD, but that Lexus as a whole is moving downmarket with their offerings, RWD or not. Development of the GS and IS has been halted in favor of cheaper vehicles like the ES, UX, NX, and now the BX. The Germans themselves are moving downmarket with cars and SUVS like the GLA and X1, but they still continue to make crazy redundant expensive cars with little mass market appeal like the GT63 4-door. Heck, Audi technically has only a single RWD vehicle in their entire lineup (the R8). And Volvo, which is still primarily FWD with a simple Haldex AWD system is selling better than ever before with their premium offerings even at the same price point as the German trio.
I don't mind if Lexus moves to a totally FWD lineup, but what we've seen so far from their FWD lineup is that they aren't interested in making them more upscale like Audi or Volvo. The current ES had the opportunity, but it can't even be given AWD with the V6. And as Toyota gradually moves upmarket with their vehicles and prices, where does that leave Lexus as it moves further downmarket?
I don't mind if Lexus moves to a totally FWD lineup, but what we've seen so far from their FWD lineup is that they aren't interested in making them more upscale like Audi or Volvo. The current ES had the opportunity, but it can't even be given AWD with the V6. And as Toyota gradually moves upmarket with their vehicles and prices, where does that leave Lexus as it moves further downmarket?
That last bit is what has been on mind as well, Venza interior at least from the pics looks gunning for Lexus.
I would actually say that the problem is that Lexus didn't copy the Germans - while also failing to differentiate themselves from the Germans. A lot of the AMG/M/RS vehicles are bloated hp spec monsters, but the RC-F is a bloated car that doesn't even have the horsepower to overcome it. To top it off, it didn't handle well nor did it offer a compelling driving experience, so there was no competitive advantage other than being NA and a Lexus - but those were already implicit. The GS-F was just completely uncompetitively priced (remember the F10 M5 MSRP'd at just over $90k, had way more power, and somehow managed not to be much heavier, to boot). What reason would anyone have to pick these over the plethora of AMG/M/RS options? Even all the GS-F owners I know today bought them used, because none of them were crazy enough to pay anything close to MSRP.
It leaves me sad that Lexus/TMC has been proven to be such a boring and conservative company. Nowadays no one is surprised that a TT V8 is vaporware, or that they're taking iconic historical names like Supra and just slapping them on BMW powerplants. Any steps forward from the LFA or 86 are long gone and forgotten.
It leaves me sad that Lexus/TMC has been proven to be such a boring and conservative company. Nowadays no one is surprised that a TT V8 is vaporware, or that they're taking iconic historical names like Supra and just slapping them on BMW powerplants. Any steps forward from the LFA or 86 are long gone and forgotten.
F and F Sport will never sell in much volume; M/AMG/S Line doesn't sell in much volume either.
V8 TT will not sell in much volume.
Traditionally, LS did outsell S Class, and LS did outsell the pants off 7 Series - for four generations over nearly 30 years.
2GS and 3GS have sold over 30k/year USA on their first full year, while IS sells over 50k on their first full year - despite the FWD-based ES Series taking sales from both IS and GS.
More recently, 4GS and particularly 5LS sales suffered relative to their peers due to President Akio's "No more boring cars" sporty niching which failed to attract Millennial buyers as originally planned.
Right now, GS is cancelled, while IS is only a major refresh, with little in the way of new engines, because Ezz & Lexus2000 will agree that ICEV's have reached a dead end.
Toyota Motor Corp is now channeling all their resources and manpower into BEV's and particularly solid state batteries to catch up to Tesla and the Europeans on BEV's - or at least let's hope so anyway, otherwise TMC is dead...
.
V8 TT will not sell in much volume.
Traditionally, LS did outsell S Class, and LS did outsell the pants off 7 Series - for four generations over nearly 30 years.
2GS and 3GS have sold over 30k/year USA on their first full year, while IS sells over 50k on their first full year - despite the FWD-based ES Series taking sales from both IS and GS.
More recently, 4GS and particularly 5LS sales suffered relative to their peers due to President Akio's "No more boring cars" sporty niching which failed to attract Millennial buyers as originally planned.
Right now, GS is cancelled, while IS is only a major refresh, with little in the way of new engines, because Ezz & Lexus2000 will agree that ICEV's have reached a dead end.
Toyota Motor Corp is now channeling all their resources and manpower into BEV's and particularly solid state batteries to catch up to Tesla and the Europeans on BEV's - or at least let's hope so anyway, otherwise TMC is dead...
.
Absolutely I blame them. Its all about product and having good product. Lexus has let the RWD vehicles in their lineup die on the vine, and they haven't developed ANY proper GA-L platform RWD based crossovers that would sell very well.
If the products were compelling, they would move numbers. The GS-F and RC-F were/are too expensive and too outdated, underpowered. They punted on the IS not moving it to GA-L. There is no excuse for Lexus not using the hell out of that great platform...at least build sure thing crossovers on it.
As I've said before, developing FWD based rebadged Toyotas for world markets wouldn't be a big deal if they also provided proper luxury vehicles for those of us on the other end of the spectrum...they aren't. Which is why they aren't really a luxury carmaker anymore.
If the products were compelling, they would move numbers. The GS-F and RC-F were/are too expensive and too outdated, underpowered. They punted on the IS not moving it to GA-L. There is no excuse for Lexus not using the hell out of that great platform...at least build sure thing crossovers on it.
As I've said before, developing FWD based rebadged Toyotas for world markets wouldn't be a big deal if they also provided proper luxury vehicles for those of us on the other end of the spectrum...they aren't. Which is why they aren't really a luxury carmaker anymore.
06-26-20, 02:49 PM
#128
Lexus Champion
https://www.caranddriver.com/lexus/lq
06-26-20, 02:49 PM
#129
Lead Lap
Strong possibility the upcoming LQ crossover will be worth the wait, or at least a pretty legit success. I can all but guarantee they will sell like hotcakes here.
Otherwise, yes, agreed. WTF is Lexus doing? GS gone, LS no V8., new V8 probably cancelled. What happened to Lexus high end vehicles?
LC and LX are only desirable Lexus models currently on sale to me, and the LX is ancient...I'm just the small minority that doesn't care.
Otherwise, yes, agreed. WTF is Lexus doing? GS gone, LS no V8., new V8 probably cancelled. What happened to Lexus high end vehicles?
LC and LX are only desirable Lexus models currently on sale to me, and the LX is ancient...I'm just the small minority that doesn't care.
06-26-20, 02:55 PM
#130
Lexus Champion
06-26-20, 03:01 PM
#131
Lexus Test Driver
Call me crazy I also didn't pay close to MSRP. I wanted the improvements that were made for 2020. There were steering and suspension improvements and the rear toe control arm bracket is now made of die-cast aluminum to reduce weight and increase rigidity. What reason did I pick it? It's my 3rd car with Lexus 5.0 V8. It's a masterpiece. Sounds great, all the power I can use, and dead reliable. I also like a car with some good air conditioning in TX. I found the turbo awd cars boring for normal street driving. I know on the M5 and E63 S you can turn off awd, but what happens to your performance advantage when you do? The only car I would consider now would be a 718 GTS 4.0, Spyder, GT4. Much better than the turbo 4 cylinder 718 GTS I had even though it was faster with better balance. And for some reason the Challenger Scat Pack Widebody appeals to me. 6.4 liter naturally aspirated traditional muscle car in retro colors.
I also didn't pay close to MSRP. I wanted the improvements that were made for 2020. There were steering and suspension improvements and the rear toe control arm bracket is now made of die-cast aluminum to reduce weight and increase rigidity. What reason did I pick it? It's my 3rd car with Lexus 5.0 V8. It's a masterpiece. Sounds great, all the power I can use, and dead reliable. I also like a car with some good air conditioning in TX. I found the turbo awd cars boring for normal street driving. I know on the M5 and E63 S you can turn off awd, but what happens to your performance advantage when you do? The only car I would consider now would be a 718 GTS 4.0, Spyder, GT4. Much better than the turbo 4 cylinder 718 GTS I had even though it was faster with better balance. And for some reason the Challenger Scat Pack Widebody appeals to me. 6.4 liter naturally aspirated traditional muscle car in retro colors.Let me know if you get the GTS 4.0 / Spyder / GT4. My dealer is holding an allocation for a manual GT4 for me but my plan is to switch to PDK when the allocations come out.
06-26-20, 03:13 PM
#132
06-26-20, 03:31 PM
#133
I suppose the GS-F pricepoint today makes a lot more sense than in 2016, especially if you got a good discount.
Let me know if you get the GTS 4.0 / Spyder / GT4. My dealer is holding an allocation for a manual GT4 for me but my plan is to switch to PDK when the allocations come out.
Let me know if you get the GTS 4.0 / Spyder / GT4. My dealer is holding an allocation for a manual GT4 for me but my plan is to switch to PDK when the allocations come out.
. But I sure love the 718 and wouldn't mind having the 4.0 as a weekend toy.
06-26-20, 05:10 PM
#134
Lexus Fanatic
While enthusiasts sentiment is of course important, numbers are what theyre in for right? Luxury CUV is owned by a FWD RX, not a strong business case to change layout. The NX is a strong contender in that segment. I do agree they bowed out of the 55-60K+ segments and its sad to see them abandon folks who want more from the company that promised more sport in their vehicles. The LF-1 is the supposed rentry into that higher tier segment but thats for another day.
Luxury CUV is owned by a FWD RX, not a strong business case to change layout.
