Drove S560, 740i & LS500 back to back to back on the same test loop
07-07-20, 10:08 AM
#46
Lexus Test Driver
Great insights Steve thanks for spending your day doing this; real interesting outputs as I wouldn't really have considered the 7-Series at all; while not perfect, the finance incentives combined with the other attributes you mentioned does make it more compelling.
The S-Class remains the class leader and that is with the model that is on the tail end of its current generation, Mercedes should continue to dominate the flagship sedan market when their new S-class is released (unless they pull a Lexus LS500 on it...)
If I missed this, I apologize, but Steve you should also check out the Audi A8 as I've heard nothing but rave reviews on it...
The S-Class remains the class leader and that is with the model that is on the tail end of its current generation, Mercedes should continue to dominate the flagship sedan market when their new S-class is released (unless they pull a Lexus LS500 on it...)
If I missed this, I apologize, but Steve you should also check out the Audi A8 as I've heard nothing but rave reviews on it...
07-07-20, 10:48 AM
#47
Pole Position
Great write-up. Wish you had some pics of the cars you drove. It's interesting that none of the 3 provided you any real clarity as to what you're next move will be. I still think (pronounced "hope") you'll buy out your current lease and lease an LC500.
07-07-20, 12:06 PM
#48
Lexus Test Driver
+1 for the move to the LC500
07-07-20, 01:54 PM
#49
Lexus Champion
OP loves new cars and the newest technology. I get that, but yeah I'd hold onto a '17 LS460 LWB forever personally.
07-07-20, 03:00 PM
#50
Lexus Fanatic
07-08-20, 04:12 AM
#52
From the specs and (under-sized for its class)interior dimensions of the new LS500, I always thought it more the direct successor of the 4GS rather than the traditional Lexus LS torchbearer.
It's only the large external dimensions and elevated price tag that fools people into believing it's the typical Lexus flagship cushmobile when actually it's a midsize sports sedan in disguise. From a few reviews I've read, it's agility and nimbleness belies its perceived size. I believe Lexus targeted the LS500 against the Porsche Panamera rather than the traditional flagship sedans like 7 series,S-class or even the old LS460.
Reading your hands-on review only confirms my suspicions. A traditional LS460 owner like yourself looking to continue the same would no doubt be disappointed in the new LS500. 4GS aficionados mourning the loss of the GS should probably look to the LS500 to get their GS fix, if they could get past the higher price tag and external size of the LS500.
The final piece of evidence that drives home my contention that the LS500 is a midsize sports sedan in Flagship sedan livery : Interior passenger volume of the 2020 5 series = 98.9 cubic feet. Interior passenger volume of the 2020 LS500 = 99.4 cubic feet
No wonder Lexus got rid of the GS. Toyota saw the writing on the wall and realized that with the trends in public tastes, GS and LS sales would tank no matter what. Their solution? Lexus didn't just get rid of the GS, they also effectively killed off the traditional LS, combined the GS and LS into one mid-sizer and slapped the LS badge on it. You want the sporty GS experience but want more luxury and space then the IS? Get the new LS500.
The 2021 IS nor the 2020 ES aren't the GS replacements in the Lexus line-up, it's the 2020 and up LS.
reference :
https://www.thecarconnection.com/spe..._5-series_2020
https://www.thecarconnection.com/spe.../lexus_ls_2020
It's only the large external dimensions and elevated price tag that fools people into believing it's the typical Lexus flagship cushmobile when actually it's a midsize sports sedan in disguise. From a few reviews I've read, it's agility and nimbleness belies its perceived size. I believe Lexus targeted the LS500 against the Porsche Panamera rather than the traditional flagship sedans like 7 series,S-class or even the old LS460.
Reading your hands-on review only confirms my suspicions. A traditional LS460 owner like yourself looking to continue the same would no doubt be disappointed in the new LS500. 4GS aficionados mourning the loss of the GS should probably look to the LS500 to get their GS fix, if they could get past the higher price tag and external size of the LS500.
The final piece of evidence that drives home my contention that the LS500 is a midsize sports sedan in Flagship sedan livery : Interior passenger volume of the 2020 5 series = 98.9 cubic feet. Interior passenger volume of the 2020 LS500 = 99.4 cubic feet
No wonder Lexus got rid of the GS. Toyota saw the writing on the wall and realized that with the trends in public tastes, GS and LS sales would tank no matter what. Their solution? Lexus didn't just get rid of the GS, they also effectively killed off the traditional LS, combined the GS and LS into one mid-sizer and slapped the LS badge on it. You want the sporty GS experience but want more luxury and space then the IS? Get the new LS500.
The 2021 IS nor the 2020 ES aren't the GS replacements in the Lexus line-up, it's the 2020 and up LS.
reference :
https://www.thecarconnection.com/spe..._5-series_2020
https://www.thecarconnection.com/spe.../lexus_ls_2020
Perhaps what Lexus needs to understand is that for the enthusiast a powertrain that does not live up to the chassis denies real enjoyment for the drive. And consumers need to understand that performance isn’t part of the Lexus DNA anymore and they may, as I have done, look elsewhere. And don’t worry. Lexus doesn’t mind. They are happy where they are.
07-08-20, 10:19 AM
#53
After reading all the reviews - I hate to say this but NOTHING CHANGED. I'm a long time LS owner and had 3 of them up until 2017 when I switched to the S550. (Now driving the S560). Before the new LS was even released it was unappealing. All those who were die hard LS fans stated "Wait until its released". As predicted, most don't like the new LS and the lack of sales prove it. As a few mentioned, its trying to be a car for everyone and its a car for no one. (Ok, some still like it and buy it). In my opinion, the LS is a total failure. Its was supposed to be a high-end luxury car that competes with the S class and BMW 7 series and it simply doesn't. Its not a bad car, its simply not good enough compared to what else is available at that price point. Most buyers of luxury cars like large comfortable luxury cars. Mercedes S-Class, BMW 7 series and the Genesis G90 all offer that experience with varying levels of comfort, luxury and price points. The LS does not. In so doing it did not gain new customers and it lost many traditional luxury car owners like myself. I hope Lexus finds its way and comes out with a brand new LS that truly competes in this market segment. Until then, I'll continue to drive my S-Class. BTW, its kind of ironic that the Mercedes S class was number 1 in almost all of the reviewed categories, and yet this is a car that is 7 years old and about to be replaced with a newer model later this year. If its still number 1 after all these years and despite being the oldest model in the comparo, perhaps Lexus can learn from Mercedes what it truly takes to build a luxury car people in this buyer category want.
07-08-20, 10:55 AM
#54
Driver School Candidate
Great Review
So I had some time this afternoon, and all of the dealers are slow because of COIVID and it being 4th of July Weekend. I set out to drive a 740i that a local dealer had that was spec'ed closely to what I would want if I were to consider one, and while I was at it I took advantage of MB and Lexus being in such close proximity that I test drove everything back to back on the same test loop.
Thought I would share some thoughts. I drove a 740i which had a sticker price of about $98k. Its missing a couple things I would want (like no cooled seats, really? In a $98k car?) and one spec'ed the way I would want would be about $103k or so. The S560 was a pretty well equipped AMG line version with a sticker of $123k, and the LS500 was medium optioned car with a sticker of $92k. It had been a long while since I drove an LS500. The LS was optioned exactly how I would want, thats one of the things I like about Lexus, their packages just work for me out of the box, MB and BMW are more of a challenge. All 3 cars had air suspension.
Exterior Styling 1: Mercedes S560 2: BMW 740 3: Lexus LS500
So this is an area where I've had some changes of thought. Originally I HATED the big new 7 Series grille, but I have to say that as I have been looking online at pictures and in person, I actually kind of like it. The 7 Series looks really long, which I like. The S Class of course is beautiful, especially with the AMG exterior package (expensive at $5k but worth it) while the 7 Series I like in both M Sport trim and regular luxury trim. I've grown to like the LS500 a lot too. All three cars I would be happy with the exterior styling of.
Interior 1: BMW 740, 2: Mercedes S560, 3: Lexus LS500
This is also something that surprised me. I actually really like the 7 Series inside. Its EASILY the largest of the bunch, has the most traditional interior styling and shape. The back seats are HUGE, while the rear legroom in the S560 and especially the LS500 was much tighter. The 7 Series feels bigger inside upfront too, with the LS feeling quite tight and sporty as we've discussed before. Interior quality at lower spec goes to the LS500, higher spec goes to the 7 and then the S in a close second. One of the frustrating things about both the 7 and S to me is that even at high MSRPs they typically lack things I really like, such as a sueded headliner. You have to go to Merino leather in the 7 to get that or get a very rare interior upgrade package with Napa leather, and exclusive Napa in the S to get that, and in the LS its basically on every car that isn't a really low trim. I'm happy with the seat leather on both the 7 and S in the Napa trim, all that is missing is the sueded headliner. Now that I'm used to the sueded headliners, the cloth ones in both the 7 and S feel cheap to me. That basically means you'd have to special order a 7, and an S with the exclusive Napa on the lot is a very high MSRP car (like, $130k). The LS500 materials are excellent everywhere, what isn't leather is suede, what isn't wood is metal. The same is true of the 7 and S with a few exceptions (they have harder feel materials around there lower door, and the bottom of the B pillar is surprisingly hard crappy plastic in the 7) but the German cars feel dour in the base leather options where the LS feels much richer. Seat quality is very good in all, I love the physical adjustable backrest in the 7 like I had in my GS. The backrest is adjustable on the S and LS but its an inflatable section that isn't as comfortable to me. LS has the best massage seats.
From a tech perspective, the 7 leads and the S is close behind, while the LS is a distant, distant third. BMW has a lot of neat features like the backup assistant that will automatically reverse your course by tracking the steering input you used pulling in for like 160 feet. Very cool. Infotainment is 7, S, LS, no surprise there. I did find the 7 Series screen to be disappointingly small. The screen in my LS460 is 12.3" and the same is true in the LS500 and the S Class, the one in the 7 is only 10 inches and it definitely felt small. Newer BMW interiors such as that in the X7 & X5 use a 12" screen. I can understand why they upsized in in the refresh 5 Series and I wish they had in the 7. All 3 cars have a virtual instrument cluster, best is MB second is BMW and the LS is third. I don't care for the small monopod setup they use in the LS500, and only the screen in the S Class is really customizable.
Powertrain 1. LS500, 2: 740 (not compared S560):
I didn't include the S560 in this because obviously its the best, but I will say, the engine in the LS500 is much smoother and more refined than I remember, and surprisingly I found it moreso in both areas that the straight 6 in the 740. It doesnt have the refined thrust of the V8, but of these 6 cyl options...it might just be the best, Power in the 740 is MUCH better than its low 335 HP figure would suggest, its incredible to believe the LS is 90 more HP. As a side note, the S560 doesnt feel that much quicker, but the smooth effortless thrust of power makes driving it a much different experience. I'd like to try a 750 also.
Ride and Drive 1. S560, 2. 740, 3. LS500
The S560 Is the champ here for sure. What surprised me is that despite the reviews and all lauding the 7 Series as having a very soft ride, I didn't think it rode especially well, certainly not as well as the S560 and in fact, I didn't think it rode that much better than the LS500. There was a graininess to its ride, it never felt like it was gliding along the pavement the way the S Class does, never felt that detachment from the road. Likely thats by design, as the 7 is notably nimbler than the S, but I didn't really get where the reviewers who made that claim were coming from. The LS is the sportiest of the bunch, but I gotta say I do think it gets a bad rap. This is not a poorly riding car, it just doesnt feel like a big luxury sedan on the road. It feels more like an evolution of the GS, which was a very nice riding car just firmly damped. Notable too, the S and 7 I drove were on 19s, the LS was on 20s. All three cars were very quiet, along the same course S was 58 db, 7 58 db, LS 60 db (my LS460L measured 58 dB after). The LS500 has some wind noise at speed I noticed also when I drove it before, and some tire noise made it through. 7 Series has no wind noise, but did have some tire noise. S Class did a better job of quieting that (Both had the same Pirelli P7 Runflats) although that difference didn't show up in the dB readings. All 3 of these cars are on runflats, and I would replace them on all of them with regular tires which will undoubtedly improve the ride and noise.
Lease Value 1. 740, 2. LS500, 3. S560
Leases on the 740 are CHEAP. I mean, cheap. Their teaser lease is $699! Teaser lease on the S560 is $1,350! S450 is $1,050. Optioned out the way I would want it and zero drive off, I could probably lease a 740 for ~ $1,100. Thats a great deal for a car with an MSRP over $100k. LS500 doesnt have as attractive lease rates, and you'd be looking at a payment of around the same as the 7 Series but with a car with a $10k cheaper MSRP. S Class is the most expensive obviously. S560 optioned like I would want is $1,500-$1,600, a big gap. Finance rates are great on all, you can finance an S Class for 2.9%, whoever thought that would be possible?
So what's the winner? The S Class no doubt, but the financial side of it makes it a tough car to pony up for. The 7 Series is a very compelling value prospect...
Did this provide me any clarity in my decision? No...and I still don't find myself *wanting* any of these cars over what I have...so I'm still not really sure what I will do. Don't get me wrong, they are all great cars but they just didn't leave me driving home wishing I was driving one of them.
Looking forward to everybody's thoughts.
Thought I would share some thoughts. I drove a 740i which had a sticker price of about $98k. Its missing a couple things I would want (like no cooled seats, really? In a $98k car?) and one spec'ed the way I would want would be about $103k or so. The S560 was a pretty well equipped AMG line version with a sticker of $123k, and the LS500 was medium optioned car with a sticker of $92k. It had been a long while since I drove an LS500. The LS was optioned exactly how I would want, thats one of the things I like about Lexus, their packages just work for me out of the box, MB and BMW are more of a challenge. All 3 cars had air suspension.
Exterior Styling 1: Mercedes S560 2: BMW 740 3: Lexus LS500
So this is an area where I've had some changes of thought. Originally I HATED the big new 7 Series grille, but I have to say that as I have been looking online at pictures and in person, I actually kind of like it. The 7 Series looks really long, which I like. The S Class of course is beautiful, especially with the AMG exterior package (expensive at $5k but worth it) while the 7 Series I like in both M Sport trim and regular luxury trim. I've grown to like the LS500 a lot too. All three cars I would be happy with the exterior styling of.
Interior 1: BMW 740, 2: Mercedes S560, 3: Lexus LS500
This is also something that surprised me. I actually really like the 7 Series inside. Its EASILY the largest of the bunch, has the most traditional interior styling and shape. The back seats are HUGE, while the rear legroom in the S560 and especially the LS500 was much tighter. The 7 Series feels bigger inside upfront too, with the LS feeling quite tight and sporty as we've discussed before. Interior quality at lower spec goes to the LS500, higher spec goes to the 7 and then the S in a close second. One of the frustrating things about both the 7 and S to me is that even at high MSRPs they typically lack things I really like, such as a sueded headliner. You have to go to Merino leather in the 7 to get that or get a very rare interior upgrade package with Napa leather, and exclusive Napa in the S to get that, and in the LS its basically on every car that isn't a really low trim. I'm happy with the seat leather on both the 7 and S in the Napa trim, all that is missing is the sueded headliner. Now that I'm used to the sueded headliners, the cloth ones in both the 7 and S feel cheap to me. That basically means you'd have to special order a 7, and an S with the exclusive Napa on the lot is a very high MSRP car (like, $130k). The LS500 materials are excellent everywhere, what isn't leather is suede, what isn't wood is metal. The same is true of the 7 and S with a few exceptions (they have harder feel materials around there lower door, and the bottom of the B pillar is surprisingly hard crappy plastic in the 7) but the German cars feel dour in the base leather options where the LS feels much richer. Seat quality is very good in all, I love the physical adjustable backrest in the 7 like I had in my GS. The backrest is adjustable on the S and LS but its an inflatable section that isn't as comfortable to me. LS has the best massage seats.
From a tech perspective, the 7 leads and the S is close behind, while the LS is a distant, distant third. BMW has a lot of neat features like the backup assistant that will automatically reverse your course by tracking the steering input you used pulling in for like 160 feet. Very cool. Infotainment is 7, S, LS, no surprise there. I did find the 7 Series screen to be disappointingly small. The screen in my LS460 is 12.3" and the same is true in the LS500 and the S Class, the one in the 7 is only 10 inches and it definitely felt small. Newer BMW interiors such as that in the X7 & X5 use a 12" screen. I can understand why they upsized in in the refresh 5 Series and I wish they had in the 7. All 3 cars have a virtual instrument cluster, best is MB second is BMW and the LS is third. I don't care for the small monopod setup they use in the LS500, and only the screen in the S Class is really customizable.
Powertrain 1. LS500, 2: 740 (not compared S560):
I didn't include the S560 in this because obviously its the best, but I will say, the engine in the LS500 is much smoother and more refined than I remember, and surprisingly I found it moreso in both areas that the straight 6 in the 740. It doesnt have the refined thrust of the V8, but of these 6 cyl options...it might just be the best, Power in the 740 is MUCH better than its low 335 HP figure would suggest, its incredible to believe the LS is 90 more HP. As a side note, the S560 doesnt feel that much quicker, but the smooth effortless thrust of power makes driving it a much different experience. I'd like to try a 750 also.
Ride and Drive 1. S560, 2. 740, 3. LS500
The S560 Is the champ here for sure. What surprised me is that despite the reviews and all lauding the 7 Series as having a very soft ride, I didn't think it rode especially well, certainly not as well as the S560 and in fact, I didn't think it rode that much better than the LS500. There was a graininess to its ride, it never felt like it was gliding along the pavement the way the S Class does, never felt that detachment from the road. Likely thats by design, as the 7 is notably nimbler than the S, but I didn't really get where the reviewers who made that claim were coming from. The LS is the sportiest of the bunch, but I gotta say I do think it gets a bad rap. This is not a poorly riding car, it just doesnt feel like a big luxury sedan on the road. It feels more like an evolution of the GS, which was a very nice riding car just firmly damped. Notable too, the S and 7 I drove were on 19s, the LS was on 20s. All three cars were very quiet, along the same course S was 58 db, 7 58 db, LS 60 db (my LS460L measured 58 dB after). The LS500 has some wind noise at speed I noticed also when I drove it before, and some tire noise made it through. 7 Series has no wind noise, but did have some tire noise. S Class did a better job of quieting that (Both had the same Pirelli P7 Runflats) although that difference didn't show up in the dB readings. All 3 of these cars are on runflats, and I would replace them on all of them with regular tires which will undoubtedly improve the ride and noise.
Lease Value 1. 740, 2. LS500, 3. S560
Leases on the 740 are CHEAP. I mean, cheap. Their teaser lease is $699! Teaser lease on the S560 is $1,350! S450 is $1,050. Optioned out the way I would want it and zero drive off, I could probably lease a 740 for ~ $1,100. Thats a great deal for a car with an MSRP over $100k. LS500 doesnt have as attractive lease rates, and you'd be looking at a payment of around the same as the 7 Series but with a car with a $10k cheaper MSRP. S Class is the most expensive obviously. S560 optioned like I would want is $1,500-$1,600, a big gap. Finance rates are great on all, you can finance an S Class for 2.9%, whoever thought that would be possible?
So what's the winner? The S Class no doubt, but the financial side of it makes it a tough car to pony up for. The 7 Series is a very compelling value prospect...
Did this provide me any clarity in my decision? No...and I still don't find myself *wanting* any of these cars over what I have...so I'm still not really sure what I will do. Don't get me wrong, they are all great cars but they just didn't leave me driving home wishing I was driving one of them.
Looking forward to everybody's thoughts.
07-08-20, 11:12 AM
#55
Driver School Candidate
That is what I call a details impression of your thoughts about theses three beauties.
I enjoyed reading your article and this opens a door in what I was thinking about these three cars.
Thank you for the time you take to nourish us with all these infos .
I enjoyed reading your article and this opens a door in what I was thinking about these three cars.
Thank you for the time you take to nourish us with all these infos .
07-08-20, 11:55 AM
#56
The S560 can only be fairly compared to the BMW M850i Gran Coupe, not the M840i which is underpowered. The M850i GC has 523 hp and 553 torque and compares in price and performance to the S560. The LS 500 can’t compare or compete with either the BMW or Merc in performance.
07-08-20, 12:24 PM
#57
Lexus Champion
The S560 can only be fairly compared to the BMW M850i Gran Coupe, not the M840i which is underpowered. The M850i GC has 523 hp and 553 torque and compares in price and performance to the S560. The LS 500 can’t compare or compete with either the BMW or Merc in performance.
07-08-20, 12:27 PM
#58
The S560 can only be fairly compared to the BMW M850i Gran Coupe, not the M840i which is underpowered. The M850i GC has 523 hp and 553 torque and compares in price and performance to the S560. The LS 500 can’t compare or compete with either the BMW or Merc in performance.
07-08-20, 12:56 PM
#59
Driver School Candidate
Excellent Review!
So I had some time this afternoon, and all of the dealers are slow because of COIVID and it being 4th of July Weekend. I set out to drive a 740i that a local dealer had that was spec'ed closely to what I would want if I were to consider one, and while I was at it I took advantage of MB and Lexus being in such close proximity that I test drove everything back to back on the same test loop.
Thought I would share some thoughts. I drove a 740i which had a sticker price of about $98k. Its missing a couple things I would want (like no cooled seats, really? In a $98k car?) and one spec'ed the way I would want would be about $103k or so. The S560 was a pretty well equipped AMG line version with a sticker of $123k, and the LS500 was medium optioned car with a sticker of $92k. It had been a long while since I drove an LS500. The LS was optioned exactly how I would want, thats one of the things I like about Lexus, their packages just work for me out of the box, MB and BMW are more of a challenge. All 3 cars had air suspension.
Exterior Styling 1: Mercedes S560 2: BMW 740 3: Lexus LS500
So this is an area where I've had some changes of thought. Originally I HATED the big new 7 Series grille, but I have to say that as I have been looking online at pictures and in person, I actually kind of like it. The 7 Series looks really long, which I like. The S Class of course is beautiful, especially with the AMG exterior package (expensive at $5k but worth it) while the 7 Series I like in both M Sport trim and regular luxury trim. I've grown to like the LS500 a lot too. All three cars I would be happy with the exterior styling of.
Interior 1: BMW 740, 2: Mercedes S560, 3: Lexus LS500
This is also something that surprised me. I actually really like the 7 Series inside. Its EASILY the largest of the bunch, has the most traditional interior styling and shape. The back seats are HUGE, while the rear legroom in the S560 and especially the LS500 was much tighter. The 7 Series feels bigger inside upfront too, with the LS feeling quite tight and sporty as we've discussed before. Interior quality at lower spec goes to the LS500, higher spec goes to the 7 and then the S in a close second. One of the frustrating things about both the 7 and S to me is that even at high MSRPs they typically lack things I really like, such as a sueded headliner. You have to go to Merino leather in the 7 to get that or get a very rare interior upgrade package with Napa leather, and exclusive Napa in the S to get that, and in the LS its basically on every car that isn't a really low trim. I'm happy with the seat leather on both the 7 and S in the Napa trim, all that is missing is the sueded headliner. Now that I'm used to the sueded headliners, the cloth ones in both the 7 and S feel cheap to me. That basically means you'd have to special order a 7, and an S with the exclusive Napa on the lot is a very high MSRP car (like, $130k). The LS500 materials are excellent everywhere, what isn't leather is suede, what isn't wood is metal. The same is true of the 7 and S with a few exceptions (they have harder feel materials around there lower door, and the bottom of the B pillar is surprisingly hard crappy plastic in the 7) but the German cars feel dour in the base leather options where the LS feels much richer. Seat quality is very good in all, I love the physical adjustable backrest in the 7 like I had in my GS. The backrest is adjustable on the S and LS but its an inflatable section that isn't as comfortable to me. LS has the best massage seats.
From a tech perspective, the 7 leads and the S is close behind, while the LS is a distant, distant third. BMW has a lot of neat features like the backup assistant that will automatically reverse your course by tracking the steering input you used pulling in for like 160 feet. Very cool. Infotainment is 7, S, LS, no surprise there. I did find the 7 Series screen to be disappointingly small. The screen in my LS460 is 12.3" and the same is true in the LS500 and the S Class, the one in the 7 is only 10 inches and it definitely felt small. Newer BMW interiors such as that in the X7 & X5 use a 12" screen. I can understand why they upsized in in the refresh 5 Series and I wish they had in the 7. All 3 cars have a virtual instrument cluster, best is MB second is BMW and the LS is third. I don't care for the small monopod setup they use in the LS500, and only the screen in the S Class is really customizable.
Powertrain 1. LS500, 2: 740 (not compared S560):
I didn't include the S560 in this because obviously its the best, but I will say, the engine in the LS500 is much smoother and more refined than I remember, and surprisingly I found it moreso in both areas that the straight 6 in the 740. It doesnt have the refined thrust of the V8, but of these 6 cyl options...it might just be the best, Power in the 740 is MUCH better than its low 335 HP figure would suggest, its incredible to believe the LS is 90 more HP. As a side note, the S560 doesnt feel that much quicker, but the smooth effortless thrust of power makes driving it a much different experience. I'd like to try a 750 also.
Ride and Drive 1. S560, 2. 740, 3. LS500
The S560 Is the champ here for sure. What surprised me is that despite the reviews and all lauding the 7 Series as having a very soft ride, I didn't think it rode especially well, certainly not as well as the S560 and in fact, I didn't think it rode that much better than the LS500. There was a graininess to its ride, it never felt like it was gliding along the pavement the way the S Class does, never felt that detachment from the road. Likely thats by design, as the 7 is notably nimbler than the S, but I didn't really get where the reviewers who made that claim were coming from. The LS is the sportiest of the bunch, but I gotta say I do think it gets a bad rap. This is not a poorly riding car, it just doesnt feel like a big luxury sedan on the road. It feels more like an evolution of the GS, which was a very nice riding car just firmly damped. Notable too, the S and 7 I drove were on 19s, the LS was on 20s. All three cars were very quiet, along the same course S was 58 db, 7 58 db, LS 60 db (my LS460L measured 58 dB after). The LS500 has some wind noise at speed I noticed also when I drove it before, and some tire noise made it through. 7 Series has no wind noise, but did have some tire noise. S Class did a better job of quieting that (Both had the same Pirelli P7 Runflats) although that difference didn't show up in the dB readings. All 3 of these cars are on runflats, and I would replace them on all of them with regular tires which will undoubtedly improve the ride and noise.
Lease Value 1. 740, 2. LS500, 3. S560
Leases on the 740 are CHEAP. I mean, cheap. Their teaser lease is $699! Teaser lease on the S560 is $1,350! S450 is $1,050. Optioned out the way I would want it and zero drive off, I could probably lease a 740 for ~ $1,100. Thats a great deal for a car with an MSRP over $100k. LS500 doesnt have as attractive lease rates, and you'd be looking at a payment of around the same as the 7 Series but with a car with a $10k cheaper MSRP. S Class is the most expensive obviously. S560 optioned like I would want is $1,500-$1,600, a big gap. Finance rates are great on all, you can finance an S Class for 2.9%, whoever thought that would be possible?
So what's the winner? The S Class no doubt, but the financial side of it makes it a tough car to pony up for. The 7 Series is a very compelling value prospect...
Did this provide me any clarity in my decision? No...and I still don't find myself *wanting* any of these cars over what I have...so I'm still not really sure what I will do. Don't get me wrong, they are all great cars but they just didn't leave me driving home wishing I was driving one of them.
Looking forward to everybody's thoughts.
Thought I would share some thoughts. I drove a 740i which had a sticker price of about $98k. Its missing a couple things I would want (like no cooled seats, really? In a $98k car?) and one spec'ed the way I would want would be about $103k or so. The S560 was a pretty well equipped AMG line version with a sticker of $123k, and the LS500 was medium optioned car with a sticker of $92k. It had been a long while since I drove an LS500. The LS was optioned exactly how I would want, thats one of the things I like about Lexus, their packages just work for me out of the box, MB and BMW are more of a challenge. All 3 cars had air suspension.
Exterior Styling 1: Mercedes S560 2: BMW 740 3: Lexus LS500
So this is an area where I've had some changes of thought. Originally I HATED the big new 7 Series grille, but I have to say that as I have been looking online at pictures and in person, I actually kind of like it. The 7 Series looks really long, which I like. The S Class of course is beautiful, especially with the AMG exterior package (expensive at $5k but worth it) while the 7 Series I like in both M Sport trim and regular luxury trim. I've grown to like the LS500 a lot too. All three cars I would be happy with the exterior styling of.
Interior 1: BMW 740, 2: Mercedes S560, 3: Lexus LS500
This is also something that surprised me. I actually really like the 7 Series inside. Its EASILY the largest of the bunch, has the most traditional interior styling and shape. The back seats are HUGE, while the rear legroom in the S560 and especially the LS500 was much tighter. The 7 Series feels bigger inside upfront too, with the LS feeling quite tight and sporty as we've discussed before. Interior quality at lower spec goes to the LS500, higher spec goes to the 7 and then the S in a close second. One of the frustrating things about both the 7 and S to me is that even at high MSRPs they typically lack things I really like, such as a sueded headliner. You have to go to Merino leather in the 7 to get that or get a very rare interior upgrade package with Napa leather, and exclusive Napa in the S to get that, and in the LS its basically on every car that isn't a really low trim. I'm happy with the seat leather on both the 7 and S in the Napa trim, all that is missing is the sueded headliner. Now that I'm used to the sueded headliners, the cloth ones in both the 7 and S feel cheap to me. That basically means you'd have to special order a 7, and an S with the exclusive Napa on the lot is a very high MSRP car (like, $130k). The LS500 materials are excellent everywhere, what isn't leather is suede, what isn't wood is metal. The same is true of the 7 and S with a few exceptions (they have harder feel materials around there lower door, and the bottom of the B pillar is surprisingly hard crappy plastic in the 7) but the German cars feel dour in the base leather options where the LS feels much richer. Seat quality is very good in all, I love the physical adjustable backrest in the 7 like I had in my GS. The backrest is adjustable on the S and LS but its an inflatable section that isn't as comfortable to me. LS has the best massage seats.
From a tech perspective, the 7 leads and the S is close behind, while the LS is a distant, distant third. BMW has a lot of neat features like the backup assistant that will automatically reverse your course by tracking the steering input you used pulling in for like 160 feet. Very cool. Infotainment is 7, S, LS, no surprise there. I did find the 7 Series screen to be disappointingly small. The screen in my LS460 is 12.3" and the same is true in the LS500 and the S Class, the one in the 7 is only 10 inches and it definitely felt small. Newer BMW interiors such as that in the X7 & X5 use a 12" screen. I can understand why they upsized in in the refresh 5 Series and I wish they had in the 7. All 3 cars have a virtual instrument cluster, best is MB second is BMW and the LS is third. I don't care for the small monopod setup they use in the LS500, and only the screen in the S Class is really customizable.
Powertrain 1. LS500, 2: 740 (not compared S560):
I didn't include the S560 in this because obviously its the best, but I will say, the engine in the LS500 is much smoother and more refined than I remember, and surprisingly I found it moreso in both areas that the straight 6 in the 740. It doesnt have the refined thrust of the V8, but of these 6 cyl options...it might just be the best, Power in the 740 is MUCH better than its low 335 HP figure would suggest, its incredible to believe the LS is 90 more HP. As a side note, the S560 doesnt feel that much quicker, but the smooth effortless thrust of power makes driving it a much different experience. I'd like to try a 750 also.
Ride and Drive 1. S560, 2. 740, 3. LS500
The S560 Is the champ here for sure. What surprised me is that despite the reviews and all lauding the 7 Series as having a very soft ride, I didn't think it rode especially well, certainly not as well as the S560 and in fact, I didn't think it rode that much better than the LS500. There was a graininess to its ride, it never felt like it was gliding along the pavement the way the S Class does, never felt that detachment from the road. Likely thats by design, as the 7 is notably nimbler than the S, but I didn't really get where the reviewers who made that claim were coming from. The LS is the sportiest of the bunch, but I gotta say I do think it gets a bad rap. This is not a poorly riding car, it just doesnt feel like a big luxury sedan on the road. It feels more like an evolution of the GS, which was a very nice riding car just firmly damped. Notable too, the S and 7 I drove were on 19s, the LS was on 20s. All three cars were very quiet, along the same course S was 58 db, 7 58 db, LS 60 db (my LS460L measured 58 dB after). The LS500 has some wind noise at speed I noticed also when I drove it before, and some tire noise made it through. 7 Series has no wind noise, but did have some tire noise. S Class did a better job of quieting that (Both had the same Pirelli P7 Runflats) although that difference didn't show up in the dB readings. All 3 of these cars are on runflats, and I would replace them on all of them with regular tires which will undoubtedly improve the ride and noise.
Lease Value 1. 740, 2. LS500, 3. S560
Leases on the 740 are CHEAP. I mean, cheap. Their teaser lease is $699! Teaser lease on the S560 is $1,350! S450 is $1,050. Optioned out the way I would want it and zero drive off, I could probably lease a 740 for ~ $1,100. Thats a great deal for a car with an MSRP over $100k. LS500 doesnt have as attractive lease rates, and you'd be looking at a payment of around the same as the 7 Series but with a car with a $10k cheaper MSRP. S Class is the most expensive obviously. S560 optioned like I would want is $1,500-$1,600, a big gap. Finance rates are great on all, you can finance an S Class for 2.9%, whoever thought that would be possible?
So what's the winner? The S Class no doubt, but the financial side of it makes it a tough car to pony up for. The 7 Series is a very compelling value prospect...
Did this provide me any clarity in my decision? No...and I still don't find myself *wanting* any of these cars over what I have...so I'm still not really sure what I will do. Don't get me wrong, they are all great cars but they just didn't leave me driving home wishing I was driving one of them.
Looking forward to everybody's thoughts.
07-08-20, 02:07 PM
#60
Racer
I spent a couple hours driving the LS500 on Monday from Playa Vista through Venice & Santa Monica and then took a nice cruise down PCH to Malibu and back. Here are some photos of the LS I drove:
Attachment 487474
Attachment 487475
Attachment 487476
Attachment 487477
Attachment 487478
Attachment 487479
Attachment 487480
Attachment 487481
Attachment 487482
Attachment 487483
Attachment 487484
Attachment 487485
Attachment 487486