Drove S560, 740i & LS500 back to back to back on the same test loop
07-09-20, 06:13 AM
#76
Pole Position
That's one of the better-looking LS500's I've seen. Beautiful car, appreciate you posting.
Last edited by jrmckinley; 07-09-20 at 09:26 AM.
07-09-20, 09:25 AM
#77
Pole Position
Taken from this angle, the LS500 F-Sport looks very similar to the GS350 F-Sport. It looks like an evolution of the 4GS.
The closest parallel is the BMW F10 5 series to the 6 series Grancoupe. The 6 series Grancoupe also had 4 doors but was much more stylish and sat one level up in the BMW pecking order, was significantly pricier but had same amount of interior space and was also significantly longer externally. Basically BMW buyers were buying the same car but paying more for the styling and prestige of a higher model.
I'm convinced Lexus is pulling the same bait and switch. Offer a similar driving experience to the 4GS but at a premium. At least Lexus is offering more features and toys as standard, a much stronger and thus safer body shell and at least a significantly more powerful base engine.
In short think of the LS500 as the GS500 Grancoupe.
The GS is dead, long live the GS(Grancoupe).
The closest parallel is the BMW F10 5 series to the 6 series Grancoupe. The 6 series Grancoupe also had 4 doors but was much more stylish and sat one level up in the BMW pecking order, was significantly pricier but had same amount of interior space and was also significantly longer externally. Basically BMW buyers were buying the same car but paying more for the styling and prestige of a higher model.
I'm convinced Lexus is pulling the same bait and switch. Offer a similar driving experience to the 4GS but at a premium. At least Lexus is offering more features and toys as standard, a much stronger and thus safer body shell and at least a significantly more powerful base engine.
In short think of the LS500 as the GS500 Grancoupe.
The GS is dead, long live the GS(Grancoupe).
07-09-20, 02:32 PM
#80
Lexus Fanatic
07-10-20, 12:13 AM
#81
Pole Position
Unpopular opinion : having come to the realisation that the current generation LS500 is a GS500 Grancoupe in Lexus' conception and branding strategy ie a niche model, I think Lexus expected the LS to sell in niche numbers just like the niche BMW 6 series Grancoupe sold and Lexus is quite satisfied with its sales figures and probably factored that in even before launching the current LS.
The car that will effectively take the place of the traditional Flagship soft riding, noiseless LS400/430/460 in the Lexus lineup won't even be a sedan at all but will be some uberluxury version of the LX SUV.
The LS nameplate as it exists will never die since it started and defines Lexus as a brand but it is now effectively a Flagship Sports Sedan/Grancoupe in the mould of the Panamera, 6/8 series 4 door coupes, CLS and Jaguar XJ.
Lexus probably thinks a cushy riding RWD Flagship sedan is an oxymoron and doesn't make sense since the SUV/Minivan/MPV form factor provides much more space, headroom, legroom and luxury for the CEO types who like to be chauffeured.
Those who love their LS460/600hL better hold on to them or prepare to jump ship to another brand if they are not prepared to move to a Lexus Flagship SUV/Minivan/MPV.
Another possibility is that Lexus will upgrade the ES to AWD and a more powerful engine to satisfy those who love absolute silence and isolation but want to stay with Lexus and the sedan form factor. As it is the ES already rivals the S-class and 7 series in interior volume and rear seat leg room.
Seems like Lexus immediate road map is :
IS to be the compact/tweener RWD sports sedan,
LS to be the prestige stylish midsized RWD sports Grancoupe,
ES to be the mainstream bread and butter, spacious, isolation chamber cushmobile
Super LX/future Lexus Minivan or MPV to be the CEO carrier.
LC/RC and other SUVs will fall somewhere in between this framework.
The car that will effectively take the place of the traditional Flagship soft riding, noiseless LS400/430/460 in the Lexus lineup won't even be a sedan at all but will be some uberluxury version of the LX SUV.
The LS nameplate as it exists will never die since it started and defines Lexus as a brand but it is now effectively a Flagship Sports Sedan/Grancoupe in the mould of the Panamera, 6/8 series 4 door coupes, CLS and Jaguar XJ.
Lexus probably thinks a cushy riding RWD Flagship sedan is an oxymoron and doesn't make sense since the SUV/Minivan/MPV form factor provides much more space, headroom, legroom and luxury for the CEO types who like to be chauffeured.
Those who love their LS460/600hL better hold on to them or prepare to jump ship to another brand if they are not prepared to move to a Lexus Flagship SUV/Minivan/MPV.
Another possibility is that Lexus will upgrade the ES to AWD and a more powerful engine to satisfy those who love absolute silence and isolation but want to stay with Lexus and the sedan form factor. As it is the ES already rivals the S-class and 7 series in interior volume and rear seat leg room.
Seems like Lexus immediate road map is :
IS to be the compact/tweener RWD sports sedan,
LS to be the prestige stylish midsized RWD sports Grancoupe,
ES to be the mainstream bread and butter, spacious, isolation chamber cushmobile
Super LX/future Lexus Minivan or MPV to be the CEO carrier.
LC/RC and other SUVs will fall somewhere in between this framework.
Last edited by natnut; 07-10-20 at 12:29 AM.
07-10-20, 08:35 AM
#82
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
^^^ probably should start a separate thread with this, but great post. 
07-10-20, 01:08 PM
#83
Lexus Champion
Oh I think Lexus will go back and get softer, at least if they have the slightest clue what they're doing.
LS needs to be like G90. G90 is seriously impressive, I loved watching the Motorweek on the brand new one. That is exactly what I want in a luxury car.
LS needs to be like G90. G90 is seriously impressive, I loved watching the Motorweek on the brand new one. That is exactly what I want in a luxury car.
07-10-20, 01:32 PM
#84
Pole Position
That's my take anyway. Time will tell who is right.
07-10-20, 02:05 PM
#85
Like I and others have said before, if Lexus truly wanted this to be a Panamera or Gran Coupe competitor, they would have offered much more performance options instead of executive seating packages. I respect them for taking the LS in a different direction, but they didn't take it far enough, and the end result is a compromise that doesn't truly satisfy anyone.
07-10-20, 02:29 PM
#86
If that were true, they wouldn't have put in the effort to soften the suspension for this refresh, which they've put quite a bit of emphasis on in the press release. I don't buy for a second your claim that Lexus deliberately wanted the LS to be a low-volume selling vehicle.
Like I and others have said before, if Lexus truly wanted this to be a Panamera or Gran Coupe competitor, they would have offered much more performance options instead of executive seating packages. I respect them for taking the LS in a different direction, but they didn't take it far enough, and the end result is a compromise that doesn't truly satisfy anyone.
Like I and others have said before, if Lexus truly wanted this to be a Panamera or Gran Coupe competitor, they would have offered much more performance options instead of executive seating packages. I respect them for taking the LS in a different direction, but they didn't take it far enough, and the end result is a compromise that doesn't truly satisfy anyone.
TMC had their no more boring cars concept, where all their models became sporty.
The 5LS was the last to receive the no more boring cars concept.
The 5LS was lowered, such that its interior fell from 103 to just 99 cu ft, while the trunk fell from 14 to 13 cu ft. Keep in mind that LS430 had 107 + 16 cu ft!
Along with no more boring cars, 5LS received firmer suspension with a noisier ride.
Meanwhile TMC seemed to do an about-face [or at least a partial about-face] with their no more boring cars concept.
The 2016-20 mid-life refreshed GS was softened and quieter.
The 2017-23 Camry was also softened and quieter, though lower and smaller inside @ 100 vs 103 cu ft & 14 vs 15 cu ft trunk.
The 2018-24 Corolla was also softer and quieter, though lower and smaller inside @ 89 vs 98 cu ft.
The 2018-24 Lexus ES was also softer, quieter and lower inside, but maintained its 100 cu ft passenger compartment, while the trunk with pinched-tail styling fell from 15 to just 13 cu ft.
One of my staff just got a brand new RAV4 Hybrid, while another staff has the recently superseded RAV4.
I test drove it a few days ago.
It seems to have a slightly lower and smaller passenger compartment, with lower rear seat bases - uncomfortably excessively raked rear seat back rests to make the cabin feel longer, however the trunk is longer and larger; the EPA does not seem to measure cu ft volume for SUV tall wagons.
The new RAV is much softer riding [much more pleasant riding] than the other staffer's old RAV4, while the Camries of the same era ride better than RAV4.
The RAV4 is much superior noise suppression over the old RAV4, however the Camries of the same era are much quieter than RAV4.
Hence, Toyota Motor Corp's current crop of vehicles are generally smoother and quieter, but lower and smaller inside...
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 07-10-20 at 03:08 PM.
07-10-20, 02:33 PM
#87
Lexus Champion
Like I said, Lexus is prepared to lose you to another brand as it has done its math and worked out it is not worth it to retain such customers due to market trends as this segment( soft riding flagship sedans) is rapidly shrinking.
That's my take anyway. Time will tell who is right.
That's my take anyway. Time will tell who is right.
That said, I buy very nice used cars and wouldn't trust a G90 like an used LS reliability wise, so I'd never own one.
Next immediate vehicle will be a truck, however I may look for a 2017 LS460 down the line in a couple years. The last of the Lexus we all love. They're gorgeous, look amazing and nice and modern, have that V8. It will age extremely well; it already has! I'll take Steve's car if he sells it!!
G90 just looks like a plushmobile, and that's the reviews it gets, too. I get times have changed but there are plenty of people who still want to drive an isolation chamber, myself included. Lexus clearly doesn't get that and it's pitiful because they basically invented it.
07-10-20, 02:54 PM
#89
Lexus Champion
One of my staff just got a brand new RAV4 Hybrid, while another staff has the recently superseded RAV4.
I test drove it a few days ago.
It seems to have a slightly lower and smaller passenger compartment, with lower rear seat bases - uncomfortably excessively raked rear seat back rests to make the cabin feel longer, however the trunk is longer and larger; the EPA does not seem to measure cu ft volume for SUV tall wagons..
I test drove it a few days ago.
It seems to have a slightly lower and smaller passenger compartment, with lower rear seat bases - uncomfortably excessively raked rear seat back rests to make the cabin feel longer, however the trunk is longer and larger; the EPA does not seem to measure cu ft volume for SUV tall wagons..
07-10-20, 03:05 PM
#90
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Looks like my thread has been a hit LOL. I was at the beach for the past 5 days, just got back.
Not sure what 7 Series you've seen, but I couldn't detect any cheap plastic in the interior of the 740 I drove, let alone a M760i with full merino leather. Its got the best materials in the segment, IMHO...better than the S Class.
I think this is very accurate.
Unpopular opinion : having come to the realisation that the current generation LS500 is a GS500 Grancoupe in Lexus' conception and branding strategy ie a niche model, I think Lexus expected the LS to sell in niche numbers just like the niche BMW 6 series Grancoupe sold and Lexus is quite satisfied with its sales figures and probably factored that in even before launching the current LS.