1990 was LS's 1st full year the LS outsold S Class.
2LS, 3LS and 4LS all outsold S Class in its first full year.
Only the 2018 5LS failed to outsell S Class in its first full year.

Which model was truly better is arguable because it depends on the personal needs, wants and tastes of each individual.
However, they're the sales, and one would expect LS to sell better because LS is cheaper.

The main point is that something not so good happened to LS sales in 2018.
Notice how traditionally, the 7 Series was always 3rd rate, but since 5LS came, the 7 Series has begun selling well...

 

If that was the case, the GS would not be dead and the IS would not be on its second refresh with no powertrain upgrades.

I can't say that I completely blame Akio for the inconsistent direction that Lexus has taken itself in the past decade, because it's clear that what he wants is not what the shareholders want. But with a shrinking and aging lineup and practically no new products we can foresee in the near future, Lexus isn't making much progress.

I don't want to get political, but I feel like the fault here is that Lexus was established to be a global brand, which goes against Toyota's current agenda as they become more Japan-centric with their products, forcing the rest of the world to follow their Japanese tastes in the same vein as the mindset of Cool Japan. Lexus never held much sway in Japan as a brand. Thus, they're shrinking the legitimacy of Lexus in favor of bizarre Japan-centric products like the Mirai. The stubbornness of Toyota matches that of Cool Japan, where they will force foreign audiences to accept their vision, whether we like it or not.

 

All we have to do is think back in the last 3 to 5 years what have they released. Coupes, convertibles and F variants. What was the message that Akio is trying to send? Meanwhile, their existing product lines are languishing, engine tech horribly outdated, infotainment outdated. I mean how many times can you recycle the 2GR? Worse yet, a detuned version in the IS300!

 

Really bothered me too...

You aren't a longtime LS buyer like Bob and I are. For people who really love what the LS had always been the LS500 is a bitter disappointment.

Talking to a lot of Mercedes and BMW dealers, they get a lot of very new LS500s in on trade because longtime LS buyers bought them without really testing them out, and came to be so disappointed they quickly ditched them for S Classes and 7 Series.

 

It just strikes me odd to bash something you no longer like....criticizing it is one thing...but bashing is just immature IMO.

Only way to make a point is to buy something else....

 

I think bashing is too strong a word. For us the LS is a special car, and we'd like to buy another LS. Lexus' direction with the LS is forcing us to leave the brand and we'd rather not.

Lets put it this way, lets say all of a sudden Toyota made the 4 Runner a unibody crossover? As someone who likes 4Runners and just bought a new one, that would be a huge disappointment for you.

 

It would disappointing be if it were changed from what it is. But I wouldn’t constantly go on and on. I’d likely just move on to something else or nothing....my new 21 dropped the V8 years ago...would I like a V8, sure but I see why they did it. I also got stuck reluctantly with a 3rd row seat as it was the only way to get full time 4WD in limited form.

I used the words bashed because it sounded like someone was proud of bashing.....

 

I don't think anybody is going constantly on and on at this point, its only when it first came out people were really disappointed. I kinda saw it coming which is why I got the car I did.

 

Like you, though, Jill did her homework when she was shopping, and knew just what she was getting.....compared to what she had before, a more modern, updated, BOF, truck-based 4Runner. You and your wife did the same thing when shopping for a minivan, and carefully checked-out both the new Pacifica and competitors. The problem is, though, that a lot of people don't do their homework (or even the slightest bit of research) when they buy or lease something, Toyota could do exactly what you are referring to (change the 4Runner into a crossover CUV)...and some people would buy it simply because it says 4Runner on the badge. Sadly, I think we may be seeing at least some of that, at Chevy, with the Blazer (less-so with the Trailblazer)....although, to be fair, some of the Blazer-customers may not be old enough to remember the last Silverado-based Blazer.

 

Good video on LS over the generations, however he should have talked more about the German's consistent 7 year model cycles versus the 4LS's near 12 year model cycle, plus 5LS's mistake to change to a sporting luxury niche to attract young Millenials who are ultimately not purchasing the 5LS as originally intended.

 

What are worldwide sales for the LS/Celsior vs S-class during the 1990-2020 times?

 

In retrospect, I think you absolutely made the right decision...8 cyl....and the size. The LS500 is like a Mazda 6.....this segment tends to be large and comfortable inside....not mid-sized....it's the flagship....

 

With Millennials, it may be more than just a sporting-vs.-luxury issue. New LS's don't come cheap, period, and many of these younger people, for a number of different reasons, don't have large bank accounts....even necessarily for leasing, which can often be less expensive. When I was in my 20s, for example, I would have loved to have gotten a brand-new big American Luxury car....but I simply couldn't afford it, and had to save money to get my own house.

 

I will try Jill, but I remember that global sales figures from the manufacturers are rather difficult to find.


Even if they chose to make the 5LS a sporting-luxury niche like the Panamera and Maserati Ghibli etc, they should have at least provided 5LS with a whopping 108 cu ft of passenger volume just like the Panamera, Ghibli and even the all new BEV Taycan!
Keeping in mind that regular luxury full size S Class, 7 Series, and A8's are in excess of 110 cu ft.
While "super full size" sedans like Rolls Royce Phantoms are between 116 to 127 cu ft in the passenger compartment!

Thus the 5LS must sure try to do better than just a 99 cu ft passenger compartment.










Yes, I heard that the Baby Boomers are still wealthiest, with the Generation X'er in the middle, while the Millennials aren't as lucky.
.

 

Thats exactly my point, she bought what she wanted, a 4 Runner which is a BOF truck. Had they all of a sudden made it a crossover, it wouldnt be what she wanted whether or not it was called a "4Runner". Thats how we feel about the LS500. Its called the "LS500" but its a totally different sort of car than the LS historically has been.

Making the 4Runner a crossover would be a mistake. As was making the LS500 a tight, V6 powered sporty sedan.

S Class is WAY higher, sold in far more markets.

Millenials have plenty of money Mike. Bear in mind the oldest millennials are in their late 30s now, and millennials absolutely do buy $80-100k cars, its just they dont buy a Lexus LS. Lexus was stupid to think they would.