Fully Electric Lexus
10-12-20, 04:04 PM
#46
True.
Japan produces 18650's for Models S and X.
While Nevada produces 2170 for Model 3.
However, Japan only has to tweak its equipment to produce 2170's.
EZZ is the expert on this topic.
Japan produces 18650's for Models S and X.
While Nevada produces 2170 for Model 3.
However, Japan only has to tweak its equipment to produce 2170's.
EZZ is the expert on this topic.
10-12-20, 04:12 PM
#47
Lexus Test Driver
The Model S and X aren't designed to use the 2170 so that is why the older batteries exist, but Peteharvey is right in that they could switch to the 2170 easily if the Model S/X were capable of using it. I think all of the batteries will eventually move to the 4680 in 3-5 years anyway. I wonder if Tesla will buy out the Panasonic share of the plant when they do the conversion or partner with them to do the 4680. Far as I know, Tesla hasn't begun investigating the solid state batteries yet so if TMC actually makes a useable and commercializable version, they could leapfrog everybody.
10-12-20, 07:12 PM
#48
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
informative, thanks guys.
10-12-20, 07:13 PM
#49
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
i wonder if this has been a proftable venture for panasonic.
10-12-20, 08:28 PM
#50
Apparently the relationship between Tesla and Panasonic has been very "strained" with both reportedly wanting to go their own separate ways due to "struggling profitabilty".
Apparently Panasonic will leave it up to Tesla, as to whether to use Chinese sourced batteries.
Panasonic says that they will NOT be manufacturing batteries in China. Period.
The issue with manufacturing in China is that the Chinese will steal Panasonic & Tesla battery technology in exchange for having access to China's 1.4 billion population market.
A type of blackmail, because the West does not force China to handover technology in exchange for access to Western markets.
This is how China managed to industrialize so quickly.
Samsung had something like 5 factories in China.
Now, Samsung has managed to relocate 4 of those factories to Vietnam and Indonesia etc.
Only one Samsung factory remains open in China, and that factory is said to be relocated soon.
.
Apparently Panasonic will leave it up to Tesla, as to whether to use Chinese sourced batteries.
Panasonic says that they will NOT be manufacturing batteries in China. Period.
The issue with manufacturing in China is that the Chinese will steal Panasonic & Tesla battery technology in exchange for having access to China's 1.4 billion population market.
A type of blackmail, because the West does not force China to handover technology in exchange for access to Western markets.
This is how China managed to industrialize so quickly.
Samsung had something like 5 factories in China.
Now, Samsung has managed to relocate 4 of those factories to Vietnam and Indonesia etc.
Only one Samsung factory remains open in China, and that factory is said to be relocated soon.
.
Last edited by peteharvey; 10-12-20 at 10:57 PM.
10-12-20, 08:36 PM
#51
Lexus Champion
The Model S and X aren't designed to use the 2170 so that is why the older batteries exist, but Peteharvey is right in that they could switch to the 2170 easily if the Model S/X were capable of using it. I think all of the batteries will eventually move to the 4680 in 3-5 years anyway. I wonder if Tesla will buy out the Panasonic share of the plant when they do the conversion or partner with them to do the 4680. Far as I know, Tesla hasn't begun investigating the solid state batteries yet so if TMC actually makes a useable and commercializable version, they could leapfrog everybody.
If you meant Toyota then .. yeah don’t count on any battery tech from Toyota at all, they are riding the H Fool Cell train to nowhere
10-12-20, 08:54 PM
#52
Now it's just Tesla Incorporated TI.
10-12-20, 09:41 PM
#53
Lexus Test Driver
As I noted above, NV Gigafactory is still not yet profitable.
TMC, Toyota Motor Company, in the context of developing solid state batteries as discussed earlier in this thread.
TMC, Toyota Motor Company, in the context of developing solid state batteries as discussed earlier in this thread.
10-12-20, 11:20 PM
#54
Toyota is more and more collaborating with others on new technology and vehicles. That could be a good and bad thing. That good is that they can get something faster to market than what they can develop themselves. The bad is that their technology isn't really special (if shared with others) and worst case if they become a marketing company instead of a car company. So many rebadge cars with Toyota.
Maybe they will just rebadge a Tesla lol.
Can Toyota regain the lead on the battery technology in vehicles? I guess time will tell.
Maybe they will just rebadge a Tesla lol.
Can Toyota regain the lead on the battery technology in vehicles? I guess time will tell.
10-13-20, 05:46 AM
#55
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
love all the talk of toyota and solid state batteries like it's a done deal that they will suddenly spring to life and magically be ahead of everyone else. 
10-13-20, 07:53 AM
#56
Lexus Champion
10-13-20, 08:58 AM
#57
https://electrek.co/2017/12/18/bmw-s...electric-cars/
https://electrek.co/2019/04/11/ford-...state-battery/
https://www.greentechmedia.com/artic...tate-batteries
Heck, Mercedes already offers a vehicle that uses SSB's:
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...es-in-city-bus
Until Toyota actually has a product or even prototype utilizing SSB's, simply saying that they're doing research with it doesn't make them more well-prepared than the rest of the industry.
10-13-20, 02:52 PM
#58
Benz's solid state already in production offers only a modest 25% more energy density over the ageing 1991-based current lithium ion batteries.
Meanwhile, BMW, Ford and Hyundai's solid state in development only offers 2-3 times more energy density.
TMC's Fluoride Ion Battery FIB offers 7 times greater energy density, but battery degradation is presently faster than lithium ion.
The main point is that both TMC and Honda are really "focused" on solid state research.
TMC has compromized ICEV development to focus on solid state.
For example, many companies including BMW and Subaru have stopped development of electric turbos which can spool to 70,000 rpm in just 200 odd milliseconds.
While Honda has pulled out of Formula 1 racing to focus on zero emissions vehicles.
I have not seen this degree of compromize in my lifetime.
May be bit off topic here, but by contrast, several years ago, Canon continued to produce your ex-EOS 5D IV, rather than focus on mirrorless cameras.
That's why 2 years ago, Canon's first full frame mirrorless in the EOS R/RP was a flop!
This year, their new EOS R5/R6 mirrorless is so much better, but still falls short of Sony's A7R IV mirrorless brilliance.
However good to see Toyota Motor Corp really "focused" on electrification.
Toyota really means business, I guess.
Many companies presently developing batteries, and that is great for all of us.
Competition brings out the best in everyone...
10-13-20, 03:24 PM
#59
Lexus Champion
Toyota says their SSBs will be out in 2025, they will be expensive and Toyota don't know how to mass produce them. Toyota is counting on being able to wait it out and hit the market with solid state but in 5 years Tesla and possibly VW will be selling millions of EVs per year. Risky game Toyota is playing.
10-13-20, 04:54 PM
#60
Being optimistic and assuming Toyota actually hits its self-set 2025 deadline for SSB's, they'll still be in limited production, and are not at all going to overtake their lineup as some claim.
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...executive-says
https://www.greencarreports.com/news...executive-says