Wrong. The 400 and 430 were never really considered the limo type vehicles due to the lack of a long wheelbase model. It wasn't until the 460L came along that it was more directly comparable. That was the entire point of Lexus bringing the L version. The 400 and 430 were very often referred to as Japanese Buicks. They were successful because they offered a different answer to the luxury car question.

And none of that disqualifies it from being considered an entry level luxury car.

For a 4-door sedan, it ride and handling certainly is considered more "sporty". The one I was in was not as smooth as the ES over rough road.

Well, that's the way many S and 7 owners looked at it. As a soul-less appliance. Buyers decided otherwise because those soul-stirring qualities of the S and 7 were not as appealing as the package and price the LS offered. They proved that the only definition of luxury wasn't what BMW and Mercedes decided.

It's marketed as entry-level luxury under a luxury brand, and it sells very well. Consumers decide.

I doubt that, but we will see. I wonder if the E with the 4 cylinder outsells the i6. Either way, consumers decide what is entry level luxury, not the Germans.

 

There's no use for me to argue with so much misinformation and conjecture.

 

This really isnt the case. The LS was always compared alongside the S and 7 and XJ and sometimes the A8 in magazine comparisons, and when we were shopping for both the LS400 and LS430 new we absolutely considered both the S Class and the 7 Series, although both of those cars were clearly upgrades to the LS they were definitely seen as competitors.

 

It's not conjecture. The ES is an entry level luxury car. Period. That's not up for debate. It's not an E or 5, but it doesn't have to be.

 

Of course they were. That's exactly my point.

Most see the E and the 5 as an upgrade from the ES, but that doesn't dismiss the ES as an entry level luxury sedan. Many people said the same thing about the original LS. You had to meet the standards of the S and 7 to be a competitor in the market, and the LS vert quickly proved them wrong.

 

I agree with you. This is a Lexus forum, the majority here (even if they were too young), should know the 4 goals that the F1 project had, when it began in 1983. They basically set out to build the world's best car. When the LS400 came out in fall 1989, BMW accused Toyota Motor of selling them below cost. Talk about a compliment. Maybe, it's not possible to repeat fall 1989. My hunch way too much competition, and way too much access to information now. The top universities accepted 19% of applicants when I attended. Not everyone was perfect, you had clowns like myself. Today? Acceptance < 5% and every attendee is perfect in every way.

 

The LS did meet the standards of the S and 7 though, it was just a little smaller. Remember too that when the LS400 and 430 were out, there was a SWB 7 that was similar in size, and eventually a SWB S Class too. The ES doesnt meet the standards of the E and 5. That doesnt mean the ES isnt a great car for the money, it is but the analogy of the LS vs the 7 and S Class doesnt hold up.

 

The LS didn't just meet the standards of the S and 7, it flew past them and redefined the standard for the entire segment. It did everything the S and 7 did and then some. This claim that the LS400 was made in the same vein as the Camry platform-sharing ES is complete revisionist history.

 

It's a shame that nothing coming out today is quite like the 1990 model. Heck, BMW can't even build a 3 anymore that can be on the top 10 list, where it sat for 24 consecutive years. Its last year may have been 2013 or 2012. We consumers at times want the best, and what we're paying big dollars for is run of the mill.

 

You are correct that the start/stop feature on a hybrid cannot be overriden, but you can't really compare how it works to a start/stop system in a non-hybrid.

In a hybrid, you don't have to wait for the engine to fire back up to get going, as you get started on electric power. I've driven several conventional ICE vehicles with start/stop, and am yet to find one that fires up as smoothly as it does on a hybrid. For example, on my father-in-law's Durango, the system drives me absolutely crazy. I think it takes too long to fire back up when you are ready to get going, and it's not smooth at all. Whereas in our Highlander Hybrid, I don't even notice it.

 

The only ground breaking products from Lexus were the original LS and SC and second gen IS. They were truely ahead of their times.

 

It's thanks to the LS400 that V8s are now seen as a segment standard for full-size flagship luxury sedans, back in an era when everything was either a 6-cylinder or V12. How ironic that the LS500 would be the first in its segment to drop the V8.

 

Not true. It didn't "fly past" their standard. It created a new standard. S and 7 owners looked down on it because it was slower, smaller, didn't handle as well, and just a "Toyota". Because it WAS a Toyota in Japan. Even coming with cloth seats. (gasp)

But it was quieter and offered a very cushy ride. It also more reliable and more affordable. Buyer decide those things were more important and redefined the big luxury segment. They didn't say it wasn't a luxury car because it wasn't an S or 7, and they didn't dismiss it by saying it was cheaper and should sell a ton of them because they are cheaper.

The ES is absolutely a valid entry level luxury car. So what if it built off the Avalon platform. So what if it isn't the same answer that MB and BMW came up with. Buyers don't care, and they decide, just as they did with the LS in 1990. If there is anything to argue, it's that the E and 5 are no longer entry level luxury, since both MB and BMW offer cheaper cars and the prices have jump on both those cars.

 

This is borderline trolling. I'm going to stop responding to you in this thread if you continue this absurd revisionist narrative.

 

I had the new ES for about 2 weeks when my RX was in shop getting wok done. I liked the ES a lot, it was quick, looked good and the interior was very inviting too. I drove it around and enjoyed it. It looked like a mini LS. I even recommended one to my neighbor who came to check my New car out. He liked it as well. I think its a much better buy than a Avalon.