When you click on links to various merchants on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network.
Does dual injection automatically mean poorer fuel economy?
Those extra parts haven't adversely impacted the reliability of the 2GR-FSE/FXS/FKS dual injection V6s. In fact it's prolonged their working lifespan. Just because other parts of the car will have issues by 100K doesn't mean engine longevity issues shouldn't be addressed. Unless you're saying the German philosophy is planned obsolescence so they don't even try to engineer an engine to function beyond 100,000 miles.
If you have ever gotten deep into a German DI engine and a Lexus/Toyota one you very easily see how "wasteful" the Toyota one is designed. You can easily push over 700hp out of a stock internals 3UR, now try getting 2x power out of a German engine without changes. They don't leave margin on the table since that's is literally inefficiency.
Now hold on a second there, the no name station in Ashly sometime has 70 cents cheaper! I'm sure nothing bad has ever gotten into the Jeeps tank.......(it has)
Unless your wife has triplets and a Dodge Caravan rears its ugly head into your garage.
no wife, no kids haha
the kid in the avatar picture is me taken in catalunya, spain but i imagine if i were to have a kid he'd look much like that, problem with having a kid is i'm not too interested in women
If you have ever gotten deep into a German DI engine and a Lexus/Toyota one you very easily see how "wasteful" the Toyota one is designed. You can easily push over 700hp out of a stock internals 3UR, now try getting 2x power out of a German engine without changes. They don't leave margin on the table since that's is literally inefficiency.
Well it’s pretty interesting that with all of this talk about German vs. Japanese engines Toyota picked a BMW engine for its Supra. I guess the Japanese philosophy about engines seemed to have changed and they are willing to risk their reputation with an engine only built to last 100k miles.
I wondered the same thing about PEA additives (Techron, in particular). Then, I made the mistake of buying an articulating borescope and looking inside the cylinders of my ‘04 GX470. Second owner, and I would guess/expect name brand fuel (mobil, shell, BP) since day one. So, when a bunch of Mobil 1 5W30 and Techron went on sale (blowout priced, oil was about $12 a gallon) at the local parts store, I bought a bunch (all of it), and did a long term test. This is what it looked like inside prior to beginning: Top of a typical piston. Completely coated with carbon build up.
It had 157K miles - essentially all highway, typically clocking 70+ miles most days, and the vehicle averages 18.9 real mpg according to my Fuelly log. This rig uses no oil, and does not run rich-plugs are perfect, and fuel efficiency is excellent.
For the test, I used a bottle of Techron at every fill up, and changed the oil after every five bottles (typically around every 1500 miles), and changed and cut and inspected the filter media on every third oil change. Chevron warns against using more than 5 bottles in a vehicle between oil changes. I suspect the reason for this is the PEA is pervasive and makes its way into anything that experiences combustion gases, including the oil system, and probably thins the oil. I would expect this would be much more significant in a smaller engine with a smaller oil system. The GX takes 6.5 qts, so I expect that I had a good 50% safety margin over a 4-qt system, but played it safe.
Improvement (cleanliness) was slow at first, but then did gradually speed up. I typically borescoped it every 5 bottles or so as the experiment progressed.
One bottle is not effective at removing significant accumulated combustion chamber deposits...it takes time. And many bottles. This is what it looked like inside at 178K miles, after / under continuous treatment: Carbon remaining on piston crown. Much thicker than I expected, and not evident in the original pictures I took of pistons. Vertical black streaks come and go, likely softened carbon crumbles being wiped by the rings on the crosshatch.
I essentially ran out of Techron at this point after 21K miles, discontinued the experiment, and have since resumed standard oil change intervals...but make it a point to run 4 or 5 bottles through it just before the oil change is due. Based on the rate of cleaning, I expected that it would have taken another 10k miles of continuous use in order to approach the 95% threshold for completely cleaning the combustion chambers. Fuel economy did not improve in the least, nor did I really expect it to...based on the amount of carbon that was removed, I likely actually hurt volumetric efficiency. No noticeable change in smoothness or any other engine characteristic...it runs the same as it did before. For me, the greatest value in the test was that I was able to get a really nice look at the valves once they cleaned up, and verify that there were no hot spots or other signs of valve distress in an otherwise higher mileage motor. Zero metal has ever been found in the oil filter media, but some carbon bits did make it in. Carbon will crush, metal will not, when inspecting a filter.
It now has over 190K and is doing great. (Edit for clarification, I have owned since 100K and so had a good baseline prior to this test). Bottom line, I found that Techron works, but took much more than I would have expected to achieve these results. But, I suspect that it likely made a significant improvement in reducing any carbon buildup in the ring lands, and ultimately may extend the life of the engine with regular use. YMMV.
Well it’s pretty interesting that with all of this talk about German vs. Japanese engines Toyota picked a BMW engine for its Supra. I guess the Japanese philosophy about engines seemed to have changed and they are willing to risk their reputation with an engine only built to last 100k miles.
Not really, the BMW I-6s are their best ones by a substantial margin. Watch a teardown and pat particular attention to the size of the mains and rod bearing and fasteners, then watch a teardown of one of their V8s and then a Toyota V8
The only thing I would add to the post above this one is that you. An also accomplish that much more quickly with seafoam, minor water injection, or running it at 110 mpg or 4500 rpm under load for 20-30 minutes. That sort of buildup occurs from low load states and PCV oil not being burnt completely
Well it’s pretty interesting that with all of this talk about German vs. Japanese engines Toyota picked a BMW engine for its Supra. I guess the Japanese philosophy about engines seemed to have changed and they are willing to risk their reputation with an engine only built to last 100k miles.
IIRC, Toyota nearly drove the BMW engineers mad by sending them back multiple times to the drawing board until the BMW engineers made enough modifications to the Supra engine to satisfy Toyota's reliability requirements.
If “top tier” is “just” a marketing thing, why do luxury car makers recommend top tier gasoline? It’s the detergent additive package and the quantity and quality of the additives.
My choice is Seafoam gas treatment. I use it in my Porsche 911, my Audi A3, my Lexus LS 460, my Mazda Miata, my BMW motorcycles, my Vespas, my snow blower, lawn mower and pressure washer. Legions of followed. Makes for quick starting after months of store age, too
I wouldn’t worry so much about the “top tier” gas thing. That’s a marketing thing that suppliers buy into. There are plenty of gas providers I wouldn’t be concerned about getting fuel from that are not TopTier. Would I buy it from the weird ancient no name company with the pumps from 1992? No lol.
Long top tier gas thread here from a couple of years ago in which I linked an interesting AAA study that shows it’s more than marketing
If “top tier” is “just” a marketing thing, why do luxury car makers recommend top tier gasoline? It’s the detergent additive package and the quantity and quality of the additives.
Because they pay them to do that.
Originally Posted by DaveGS4
Long top tier gas thread here from a couple of years ago in which I linked an interesting AAA study that shows it’s more than marketing
Would I worry about an occasional fill up at pops grocery being a problem? No.
Will I regularly seek out top tier fuel for my cars? Yes.
I think it all depends on what you’re comparing it to. I’m talking about other big brand name stations vs stations that are top tier, not mom and pop places.
I use top tier gas too, most brand name gas is top tier.
since most gas brands and stations are already in top tier, it's likely hard to NOT get top tier gas unless you live in the boonies with only some lame gas station you insist on going to all the time lol.
even then the article says:
Although the study makes it seem like your engine is doomed if you use lower-level fuels, there is an upside. Switching to a Top Tier gasoline has shown reductions in carbon deposits on an engine previously run on lower level gasoline, and the cost difference to switch is only a few cents per gallon. It may be worth it to make the jump.
so basically unless someone is SEEKING cheap gas from a no name station, it's a non-issue.
and in 6 months we'll have another one of these threads on gas or oil.
what's next "good" and "bad" electricity for EVs? 'special' surge suppressors or other nonsense to give extra 'smoothness' to your tesla?
Lol, but in seriousness there is a difference in battery quality and they way a charger charges the battery to prolong its life. Its true not just for EVs but all rechargeable batteries in general.
and in 6 months we'll have another one of these threads on gas or oil.
With all due respect, I see nothing wrong with that. That could be a benefit for new members who are always joining CL.
And, who knows?....gas prices are attractive right now, for a number of reasons (I paid $1.95 a gallon a couple of days ago, for 87 octane, with my Shell-grocery discount), but one cannot predict the future. It could be $5.00 a gallon in six months, particularly if storms knock out refineries and production-facilities.
12-28-20, 03:35 PM
