This guy tells it like it (was) with Saturn.
#76
Lexus Fanatic
Well, your opinion noted, but two things. First, most S-Series owners disagreed with you, and the cars had extremely high customer-satisfaction ratings and good reliability ratings from both Consumer Reports and JD Power. Second, Saturn prospered, and was one of the success stories of the industry, as long as they stuck with these vehicles and continued to improve them every few years with updates and redesigns. Like it or not (and, granted, a lot of people didn't)...the company started downhill after they replaced the S-series with the miserable Ion. After that (and the poorly-built mid-size L-series) were introduced, then there was some truth to your statement about Saturn being inferior....although the excellent Malibu-based Aura, even without plastic-panels or a spin-off transmission filter like the S-series had, later atoned for some of Saturn's post-2000 failings.
#77
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Buick, BTW, probably benefited the most from the demise of Olds....and also from Ford's dumping of Mercury. Being one of their former competitors, that's division that Olds and Mercury customers naturally gravitated to.....if they didn't choose a foreign make instead.
Pontiac's story is more complex. It generally appealed to a different, more performance-oriented set of customers than Olds or Buick, and, unlike Olds, had marketed an excellent pair of Holden-Australian-designed products in the G8 and GTO, which, despite their excellence, simply did not sell well in the U.S. The GTO was criticized for looking too much like a rental car.....I strongly disagreed, as, style-wise, it had strong links to the original ones of the 1960s. But the rest of the division had been seriously neglected. The G6 had the only reasonably-priced, reasonably-sized convertible/retracting hard-top that could compete with the popular Chrysler Lebaron/Sebring convertibles, but the cheapness and crap-interiors of the G6, IMO, were a joke...as was that of the smaller less-expensive G5. They tried to (false-advertise) the Montana minivan as a tough, off-road ranching vehicle (remember those cowboy TV commercials)?....which turned out to be a flop.
Do they have a cult following like Saab?
I remember when I did a full-review and write-up on a Saab 9-3 Combi wagon. There was only one local Saab dealer in the area, and I dont think I ever saw a dealership where the staff themselves took more lethargic attitude towards their products or their business. They all seemed to know or sense, subconsciously, that they weren't even a needle in a haystack, and that they were being swallowed up by the Toyota/Honda/Ford/Chevy, etc.... dealerships around them that were grabbing all of the customers.
Last edited by mmarshall; 07-26-21 at 07:49 AM.
#78
Lexus Champion
Saab, before its GM-ownership-days, might had what could be considered a "cult" (although a rather small one) when they sold the quirky Swedish-designed 99 and 900.....one of my supervisors, at work, was of Swedish descent and liked them. But GM did to Saab essentially what it did to the second decade of Saturn....tried to make it a division of redesigned Opels, GM products, and a rebadged Subaru Impreza (9-2X). Little wonder it didn't work, either.
I remember when I did a full-review and write-up on a Saab 9-3 Combi wagon. There was only one local Saab dealer in the area, and I dont think I ever saw a dealership where the staff themselves took more lethargic attitude towards their products or their business. They all seemed to know or sense, subconsciously, that they weren't even a needle in a haystack, and that they were being swallowed up by the Toyota/Honda/Ford/Chevy, etc.... dealerships around them that were grabbing all of the customers.
I remember when I did a full-review and write-up on a Saab 9-3 Combi wagon. There was only one local Saab dealer in the area, and I dont think I ever saw a dealership where the staff themselves took more lethargic attitude towards their products or their business. They all seemed to know or sense, subconsciously, that they weren't even a needle in a haystack, and that they were being swallowed up by the Toyota/Honda/Ford/Chevy, etc.... dealerships around them that were grabbing all of the customers.
But I just was talking to someone yesterday that had a GM era 9/3 sedan, and she loved that car.
#79
mmarshall is that you?
https://jalopnik.com/sign-toting-eva...ema-1847357485
Sign-Toting Evangelists Show Up To GM Headquarters Demanding The Revival Of The Saturn Brand
The protest was organized by Detroiter Andy Didorosi
ByBradley Brownell
Yesterday 12:46PM
Comments (140)
Alerts Screenshot: Fox 2 DetroitOver the weekend dozens of Saturn fans showed up to the streets outside of General Motors’ Detroit headquarters, the Renaissance Center, to demand the company bring back plastic cars and no-haggle dealerships.
Saturn died in October of 2010 after just 25 years of production. While General Motors didn’t officially respond to the protest, and likely won’t be bringing Saturn back any time soon, the group of wacky fans announced they were taking their rally on to several other (not at all Saturn-related) cities.
If you don’t live in Detroit, you might not know the name of former Jalopnik intern Andy Didorosi, and you might not have heard of the Detroit Bus Company. Thankfully the folks “organizing” the 24-Hours-of-Lemons offshoot Lemons Rally had heard of him, and called him up to get a real taste of what it’s like to visit Detroit. The Lemons Rally participants were treated to a bus tour of awesome sites and cool activities, such as a long-drive competition (hitting random nuts and bolts with thrift shop golf clubs) on the grounds of the long-defunct AMC headquarters, or visiting the 52-year-0ld concrete velodrome where Didorosi and co. once hosted small-bore motorcycle racing.
The final stop on the tour, as you can guess, was a visit to the RenCen. The Lemons Rally folks and the Detroit Bus Company folks threw this wild idea together the night before, and told everyone involved to whip together some signs in support of Saturn. While everyone was writing out “We need cheap ****boxes again. I want to be able to afford a car, damn it!! We need Saturn!” in magic marker on plain white poster board, Didorosi was calling the local news stations.
Andy told anyone who would take his call that two bus-loads of people, including some from as far away as Florida, were showing up to GM’s doorstep to shout about a brand that has been dead for eleven years. Not a word of that was a lie, but the local stations seemingly didn’t realize the whole thing was kind of a joke—not that that the LeMons Rally people would necessarily be opposed to a Saturn revival.
[img]data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAAAAACH5BAEKAAEALAAAAAABAAEAAAICTAEAOw==[/img]
Large crowd protests for GM to bring back the Saturn car brand in front of Ren Cen
Hundreds of people from around the country gathered at GM HQ to protest the car maker for ending…Read moreAccording to Lemons staffer Eric Rood, one of the participants even told the news crews in attendance that the whole thing was a stunt for “Lemons Rally” and they replied with something like “Yeah, I know this is a protest rally.” Of course, that just made the jape all the more delicious.
There’s perhaps nothing more Detroit than forming a picket line to fight for something you believe in. Of course it’s usually fair wages or better treatment of factory workers, you know, stuff that matters. This was nothing more than a ruse that made the evening news, everyone there knew that their words would carry no weight. In any case, it would seem that Didorosi gave the Lemons Rally participants a taste of the Detroit experience they were looking for.
Image: Eric RoodThere was even a Saturn entrant on the rally’s aptly-named Rust Belt Ramble. This mid-2000s Ion was stripped of its plastic panels and given a slew of trailer lights and a NASA logo in an effort to mimic some kind of lunar rover. It’s just weird enough to be perfectly at home on the Lemons Rally. And of course, we have been familiar with Lemons Rally since the beginning.
Last edited by GS69; 07-27-21 at 11:54 AM.
#80
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
mmarshall is that you?
There are also some (conflicting) signs that this "protest" may be at least partly fake.
Last edited by mmarshall; 07-27-21 at 12:03 PM.
#81
Lexus Fanatic
Literally no one considers the type of transmission filter a car has lol
#82
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
That's part of what is wrong with a lot of today's transmissions. Not only do they lack ingenious devices like this, but some of them are sealed for life...you can't even change the fluid. And that's one reason why so many of them are having problems.
#83
Lexus Fanatic
Literally nobody even thinks about the process to service their transmission lol. It’s just a non factor for 99.99% of car buyers.
And please point us to the “many transmissions that are having problems”. Transmissions are more reliable than they have ever been. You’re again living in another era.
And please point us to the “many transmissions that are having problems”. Transmissions are more reliable than they have ever been. You’re again living in another era.
#84
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Literally nobody even thinks about the process to service their transmission lol. It’s just a non factor for 99.99% of car buyers.
And please point us to the “many transmissions that are having problems”. Transmissions are more reliable than they have ever been. You’re again living in another era.
And please point us to the “many transmissions that are having problems”. Transmissions are more reliable than they have ever been. You’re again living in another era.
#85
Lexus Fanatic
The more complex they make today's trannies, and the less they allow for regular fluid-changes, the more problems (and potential problems) they run into. GM and Ford, in particular, have seen an increase in transmission issues since giving up the former 4 and 6-speed units for 8, 9, and 10-speed units. The ZF 9-speed that FCA and Honda/Acura uses has also had a lot of issues, and customer complaints.
The issues with the ZF units and high speed units has nothing to do with maintenance, it’s design and buyers being unhappy with the shift logic. You made a statement that modern transmissions are less reliable because of more difficult maintenance and that’s just not true at all.
#86
Lexus Fanatic
Thread Starter
Please provide a source for this. I don’t buy it at all.
The issues with the ZF units and high speed units has nothing to do with maintenance, it’s design and buyers being unhappy with the shift logic. You made a statement that modern transmissions are less reliable because of more difficult maintenance and that’s just not true at all.
The issues with the ZF units and high speed units has nothing to do with maintenance, it’s design and buyers being unhappy with the shift logic. You made a statement that modern transmissions are less reliable because of more difficult maintenance and that’s just not true at all.
CL had a thread on this subject several years ago.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es-...liability.html
Australian auto expert John Cadogan also gives his view of sealed-transmissions, though he uses somewhat stronger language than I would....I don't like to use four-letter words.
https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/seal...-transmissions
Last edited by mmarshall; 07-27-21 at 07:11 PM.
#87
Lexus Champion
#88
Lexus Fanatic
The more complex they make today's trannies, and the less they allow for regular fluid-changes, the more problems (and potential problems) they run into. GM and Ford, in particular, have seen an increase in transmission issues since giving up the former 4 and 6-speed units for 8, 9, and 10-speed units. The ZF 9-speed that FCA and Honda/Acura uses has also had a lot of issues, and customer complaints.
#89
Lexus Fanatic
CL had a thread on this subject several years ago.
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es-...liability.html
Australian auto expert John Cadogan also gives his view of sealed-transmissions, though he uses somewhat stronger language than I would....I don't like to use four-letter words.
https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/seal...-transmissions
https://www.clublexus.com/forums/es-...liability.html
Australian auto expert John Cadogan also gives his view of sealed-transmissions, though he uses somewhat stronger language than I would....I don't like to use four-letter words.
https://autoexpert.com.au/posts/seal...-transmissions
As technology improves, lubricants improve, design improves, mechanical things need LESS maintenance. This is a good thing for consumers because maintenance is costly and cumbersome.
But, guess what...people who make money maintaining your car don't want less required maintenance, they want more because that financially benefits them
#90
Lexus Fanatic
My take, apples to apples meaning no maintenance a modern transmission will probably last longer. With maintenance, I can make an old Aisin tranny go 500,000 miles that ain't gonna happen with a sealed transmission.