of course businesses have to change and adapt to the market, but there should a single tone and direction instead of all over the map. if they decided to cancel the GS last year and then this year say hey let's do a is500 fun car, it really makes people wonder what management is thinking. mb and bmw always have sports in mind, they have specific divisions for them. now we can argue about their approach on performance (moving to forced induction, diluted msport and amg lines, etc...), but key is they have a sports segment. can't say the same about lexus, and now with is500 it still doesn't fill the void on true F. i am waiting

 

Is the IS500 F-Sport Performance the spiritual successor of the E90 M3 sedan, except reliable and minus the manual?

On the surface, they seem very similar, both normally aspirated V8s, both 400+ hp, RWD only with LSD, both electronically adjustable suspension, both on the surface have very easily adjustable and very immediate throttle response due to the free revving NA V8 engine. Both Daily Driveable 4 doors with acceptable ride quality on normal roads. Very similar 0-60 times.

People have critiqued the F80 M3 as too mechanical and the boosted engine power response makes it hard to drive smoothly unlike the NA V8 E90 M3. Could Lexus have inadvertently captured the essence of the E90 M3 sedan(previously hailed the world's most complete car) with the IS500 F-Sport Performance?

Could people wanting to relive the old school BMW driving experience obtain it with the IS500, now with added liveability and much better reliablity?

In that case, the IS500 could be a hidden gem and future classic. Imagine : " Classic BMW, except without the headaches."

 

Well at least u acknowledge that these are options with the only standard package being the DHP package. So I expect base price to still come in at under $60k.

 

Sure yes.. Ok try to build a MY21 IS 350 F SPORT RWD w/DHP only..

The price is still $49K and this build configuration is NOT in any dealership inventory..

Just going with what we know today!! Apples to Apples

Joe Z

 

I’m with you. The thing is that either there is a bean counter(s) making the call or an enthusiast. As I see it that Hot Rod market is hot hot hot. Dollar for dollar how do you compete with the new Vette, the new Supra (BMW) is not the answer. GM put their toes in the water with the 2014- 2018 SS impala. 400 + horse 6 speed manual with all the bells and whistles for it’s time. It was a bust. There are no Lee Iacocca’s, John DeLorean or Carol Shelby out there that I know of willing to take the risk. Offer the 358 Camry motor in something.And MAKE IT AFFORDABLE, NOT A LIMITED EDITION WITH MARKET ADJUSTMENTS ADDED ON to the price.

 

My argument is the only one that makes sense, yours is failed and has no basis in reality. You want Lexus to only build some super duper full on IS-F with a tricked out twin turbo V8, body kit, big brakes, high end wheels, carbon fiber this and that, performance exhaust etc to fully take on a BMW M3 which means the price will be at least 70K or likely more and it will again fail worse then the RC-F or GS-F and you are complaining that they didn't do that, are just offering a nice V8 at likely a much more reasonable price. Sounds like you also want/wanted a full on GS-F with a tt V8 or LFA V10 to fully take on a M5 which means it will cost over 100K and will be even a bigger failure sales wise then the GS-F if that is possible. Those full on models may be really cool for the handful of people who love Lexus and can afford them and go next to their LFA but in the real world there just aren't enough Lexus fans willing to spend that kind of money on them to justify doing that over and over. No company can continue to churn out expensive unique performance versions that fail each time, the reason you aren't seeing more F cars from Lexus is because all their other ones failed, they were priced too high for what people want to pay for a Lexus especially when Lexus is not thought of as a performance brand and if they had more performance like some wanted it just means the price would have been much higher. If BMW M cars or AMG's got the same sales as Lexus F cars you would not see M cars or AMG's either, at most they would be one off specials every 10 years or so, there has to be a business case for them.

I don't know if this V8 IS F sport will sell, don't know where they are going to price it at, I do know a 70K+ full on IS F will fail, fail worse then the previous one, just like all the previous pricey F's have failed. If they price this V8 IS anywhere close to the RC-F or in the 60's it will fail too whether they have expensive IS350 option packages that take it into the mid 50's has nothing to do with it, they kind of paint themselves in a corner with that pricing and still wanting to offer a V8 version at a attractive price. There can also be some overlap in pricing, maybe even some buzz that hey you can get a V8 IS for very close to or around the price of a loaded IS350 F Sport, I don't think they would hurt excitement or sales of a V8 IS.

 

You've argued here that the IS500 is perfectly reasonable at $58,500 but also that it will definitely be a sales failure at $60k. If that's "the only argument that makes sense" there's nothing we can hope to productively discuss.


You do know Lexus sold more than double the IS F's in the USA the first MY (2008) than AMG sold C43s for the entire W202 generation? And that's just picking two cars I've personally had. Pretty unbelievable the absolute nonsense people spout on here. It's no wonder you have to strawman so hard (I've argued literally none of the things you accuse me of).

 

IS only has 255 wide rear tires, throw in an engine with even more power than the last ISF. Its definately traction limited. RCF gets 275 tires

 

People are going to buy this for the engine alone, just the sound and feel. I think lots of people will.

Cranking up a V8 versus the way a 4 cyl starts....sounds like a baby sneezing.

 

"If you build they will come ???" That was the pitch for the GS F we wanted that unfortunately didn't sell well at all.. And now the GS is history..!!

Replaced by ES350 F Sport ?

Insert -> RC F Track Edition / Fuji Speedway Edition

$105K on the showroom floor - limited 60 units ish




Joe Z

 

i am a little confused, are you trying to stack up lexus F against the cars you mentioned? personally i am not sure if they are in the same segment. the market you mentioned is an even more complicated pile of mess imho, i think that segment is more random and yet at the same time each model already has some very loyal following.

lexus F, if exists, should just go against bmw m and mb amg. imho the isf was not a great but still very good attempt (mainly because the car was an afterthought). it was a clear head to head fight against the m3 which i was both surprised and excited about. part of the reason why i was very close from getting one. it showed that lexus had the ability to compete. i am not saying it was the winner but it was in the same pack. it took AMG years before they really built up a good lineup and following, as well as gaining the reputation they have now. lexus can't expect to have one car and achieve the same.

it takes time and patience, and i think that's exactly where lexus failed. like you said, too many voices and not a strong enough person to lay down the direction. one day the accountant sent out the "ES rules" memo, and 3 months later the parts department manager screamed "we have too many leftover v8 here". it should be a big long term commitment and it probably will suck a lot of money before seeing any return. that's the call lexus has to make. i do hope this is500 performance is a start, and like i said they have to follow through (in a timely fashion) with a true F as well as future F offerings, otherwise it will just hurt them even more.

 

Lexus will never compete with M or AMG.
Those companies are fully committed to those products. They have an M/AMG version for each SUV even. Lexus surely can do it but it will never happen - bec its too much $$$ and needs to be long term commitment accross the lineup. Therefore we should enjoy this IS500 and hope for LC-F.

M and AMG also watered down their products and brand image by slapping the badge on every car.
The only brand still left that cares about making drivers cars is Porsche imo but you will pay dearly for them and good luck securing a GT variant.

 

I recently bought my first Lexus. (2013 IS 350C) I’m extremely happy with it. I let my buddy test drive it yesterday (44 degrees top down) who is a buy American guy who presently drives a Trackhawk and a Redeye. The fastest cars I’ve ever been in my life. We grew up in the 70’s and all our friends had hot rods and were all wrenches. Over the years I became a Toyota guy. SR5, GTS even a Supra. Most important to me was the reliable and inexpensively self maintainable. My wife’s cousin made big money over the years. As a young man he set a goal for himself to own a flagship BMW sedan. He’s owned quite a few now, 800 series which he let me drive, fabulous automobiles. Arguably the best. His wife is flashy. 911, Gran Turismo, Asto Martin and she only let me drive the Porsche just once. He tells me he is happy when his service bill for one of the cars is a $1000.00. Before I bought my IS I looked at Corvettes new an used, new style GTO’s and some used Porsches. I most likely would have been happy any of those cars but decided on the reliable and luxury oriented Lexus. Fast but not the fastest, refined but not the most refined but it could be the most reliable. That’s what Lexus is to me. Can Lexus make the car emphasize in this blog? Sure! The Camry NASCAR. They built it, competed had some success and now there’re out. For this year’s circuit anyway. Lexus’ recent put it’s chips into the LC. Real beautiful car but out of my price range. Subaru is part of the Toyota team. So why would they build a competitor to the WRX? And IMHO the IS, RC and GS F series do compete with the M & AMG’s German cars. At this stage of my life (60’s) I’m looking reliability and creature comforts with some *****.

 

If you mean Toyota paid to have their Camry name and somewhat shape put on a NASCAR body you're right. But the Camry NASCAR is not a Toyota lol. Thats not how NASCAR works, all the cars are largely the same and they are built by the individual racing teams according to strict protocols from NASCAR which ensures that no one car is superior to another, so the racing is about the drivers not the cars themselves.

Nothing about a Camry NASCAR has anything to do with Toyota, other than Toyota choosing to pay to advertise by having that car be a "Camry".

Toyota has built race vehicles and competed in numerous racing circuits where they did develop and build the cars, but NASCAR ain't an example of that.

 

Yup, I would buy a Camry with this v8.