Lexus IS500 F SPORT Performance
03-01-21, 05:40 PM
#466
Lexus Test Driver
But that really shows how awful Lexus is since it's even worse than that, they're doing an "F-Sport Performance" for a model that doesn't even have an F. As I and others have stated previously in this thread it just doesn't seem like Lexus has a coherent direction for the brand.
03-01-21, 06:01 PM
#467
Pit Crew
For those that think this entire car is a failure and Lexus sucks, I’m just curious if you guys are expecting Lexus to build a Porsche?
I get the feeling you really don’t like Lexus performance offerings, which is totally cool, I’m just trying to figure out why some people are so disappointed?
Lexus isn’t a traditional performance brand so while they are trying to tease out a performance division, I think they deserve an opportunity to bring a product to market. At least people should drive the IS500 before saying that it categorically sucks.
I really love the GSF, a car that many enthusiasts shat on when it came out, but now they look back and view it as a great old school, analog automobile. Same with the ISF.
I think it’s great that there is a car that seems to be a somewhat analog option (w/a NA V8 no less) in an increasingly digital/electric world.
I commend Lexus for doing their own thing, and it would’ve been nice to get some brembos, a TVD, and additional performance options, but I do think this is a potentially great option to what’s out there if the price is kept reasonable.
I get the feeling you really don’t like Lexus performance offerings, which is totally cool, I’m just trying to figure out why some people are so disappointed?
Lexus isn’t a traditional performance brand so while they are trying to tease out a performance division, I think they deserve an opportunity to bring a product to market. At least people should drive the IS500 before saying that it categorically sucks.
I really love the GSF, a car that many enthusiasts shat on when it came out, but now they look back and view it as a great old school, analog automobile. Same with the ISF.
I think it’s great that there is a car that seems to be a somewhat analog option (w/a NA V8 no less) in an increasingly digital/electric world.
I commend Lexus for doing their own thing, and it would’ve been nice to get some brembos, a TVD, and additional performance options, but I do think this is a potentially great option to what’s out there if the price is kept reasonable.
03-01-21, 06:25 PM
#468
AMG is actually worse since they started officially AMG-badging mass-produced engines in the 43/53 line. It's one of the reasons I decided not to go with the E63S wagon, because I don't feel particularly inclined to fork over six figures to a company that's just that money-grubbing and disrespectful to its own history.
But that really shows how awful Lexus is since it's even worse than that, they're doing an "F-Sport Performance" for a model that doesn't even have an F. As I and others have stated previously in this thread it just doesn't seem like Lexus has a coherent direction for the brand.
But that really shows how awful Lexus is since it's even worse than that, they're doing an "F-Sport Performance" for a model that doesn't even have an F. As I and others have stated previously in this thread it just doesn't seem like Lexus has a coherent direction for the brand.
03-01-21, 06:34 PM
#469
Lexus Test Driver
03-01-21, 06:38 PM
#470
Lexus Fanatic
The addition of V8 is actually brilliant. Who else offerings something in the price point and segment? On the same day MB announced 4 cylinder C classes. And the mechanical parts. My only critique is that it’s an old motor and it’s quite unusual
03-01-21, 09:21 PM
#471
Pole Position
The reality is that if the next Lexus high performance enthusiast car does not turn a profit, future F cars/F-Performance cars will not see the light of day.
Which is why what Lexus is doing with the IS500 F-Sport Performance, which is to maximize the chances that a high performance Lexus is a success for the Lexus bottom line, is so refreshing, creative and ingenious yet grounded in reality and a sober assessment of the lie of the land.
SUVs/CUVs are gobbling up the sales pie and crowding out performance sedans. Governments are increasingly hostile to ICE cars let alone higher performance ICE cars. Therefore, there is very little wiggle room for future performance car projects in Lexus before they are canned. A high performance project like the IS500 F-Sport must be a sales success early on and unambiguously so that future F car projects can be greenlit.
So how did Lexus do all it can to ensure the IS500 turns a profit?
1) Reducing R&D sunk costs and retooling costs by using off the shelf parts that are already in existence : the UR V8, the 3IS chassis, the GS350 F-Sport upgraded 2 piece brakes, the Yamaha dampers from the LC convertible
2) These off the shelf parts are high quality, pretested for years and thus proven to be durable. Lexus thus keeps to its core values and selling points of reliability and low maintenance.
3) By stripping off the cosmetic trappings of F cars and the track only specialized parts like 6 pot Brembos, TVDs and additional costly chassis braces, Lexus removed parts that would be lost on the average middle class car enthusiasts but which would have hugely inflated the selling price of the car if they had been left in.
4) Lexus can THEN pass these savings on to the consumers thus reducing the cost of entry of a high performance V8 to its lowest point in years. The only other time a Lexus V8 was so affordable(taking into account inflation) was when the 2nd Generation GS400 debuted in USA. I suspect Lexus aims to shake up the high performance luxury V8 market the same way the GS400 did 20+ years ago by grossly undercutting all other competitors (easy to do when no other meaningful player offers a powerful V8 in the compact luxury segment).
5) Lexus is starting small and essentially starting back at square one by confining the IS500 to the market where it has the highest probability of succeeding : America, land of the V8 and where petrol is cheapest in the world. If the IS500 takes off in the US, Lexus can then expand its F-Sport Performance line to the rest of the world.
6) Once the IS500 has been an established sales success, Lexus can then build off the credibility acquired in the mindshare of the car buying public and THEN proceed to unveil true F cars.
ISF, RCF, GSF and LFA failed because Lexus went from ZERO to a hundred far too quickly for the public to accept. Lexus has to capture the middle ground first (mid range performance cars/V8s like the IS500) before they can even talk about super high performance F cars. If Lexus had done what some posters on this forum wanted : unveil a 550-600 hp ISF yesterday, guess what would have happened? The ISF would cost 80-90K. NO ONE would buy it and the ISF would become an expensive white elephant collecting dust in Lexus showrooms. Journalists would praise the car to high heavens and then it would be discontinued the next year.
The considered, calculated way that Lexus has gone about doing things with the IS500 shows me that this time around, they are serious and very preplanned in wanting F to take off ---by first laying the ground with the IS500.
Of course everything comes down to how Lexus prices the IS500 FSP, that will be critical and also how the sales of the IS500 FSP is like. If the IS500 FSP sells well and most importantly captures the car enthusiast market's imagination and brings Lexus some much needed cachet, you can probably see many more F cars and F-Sport Performance cars going forwards.
Which is why what Lexus is doing with the IS500 F-Sport Performance, which is to maximize the chances that a high performance Lexus is a success for the Lexus bottom line, is so refreshing, creative and ingenious yet grounded in reality and a sober assessment of the lie of the land.
SUVs/CUVs are gobbling up the sales pie and crowding out performance sedans. Governments are increasingly hostile to ICE cars let alone higher performance ICE cars. Therefore, there is very little wiggle room for future performance car projects in Lexus before they are canned. A high performance project like the IS500 F-Sport must be a sales success early on and unambiguously so that future F car projects can be greenlit.
So how did Lexus do all it can to ensure the IS500 turns a profit?
1) Reducing R&D sunk costs and retooling costs by using off the shelf parts that are already in existence : the UR V8, the 3IS chassis, the GS350 F-Sport upgraded 2 piece brakes, the Yamaha dampers from the LC convertible
2) These off the shelf parts are high quality, pretested for years and thus proven to be durable. Lexus thus keeps to its core values and selling points of reliability and low maintenance.
3) By stripping off the cosmetic trappings of F cars and the track only specialized parts like 6 pot Brembos, TVDs and additional costly chassis braces, Lexus removed parts that would be lost on the average middle class car enthusiasts but which would have hugely inflated the selling price of the car if they had been left in.
4) Lexus can THEN pass these savings on to the consumers thus reducing the cost of entry of a high performance V8 to its lowest point in years. The only other time a Lexus V8 was so affordable(taking into account inflation) was when the 2nd Generation GS400 debuted in USA. I suspect Lexus aims to shake up the high performance luxury V8 market the same way the GS400 did 20+ years ago by grossly undercutting all other competitors (easy to do when no other meaningful player offers a powerful V8 in the compact luxury segment).
5) Lexus is starting small and essentially starting back at square one by confining the IS500 to the market where it has the highest probability of succeeding : America, land of the V8 and where petrol is cheapest in the world. If the IS500 takes off in the US, Lexus can then expand its F-Sport Performance line to the rest of the world.
6) Once the IS500 has been an established sales success, Lexus can then build off the credibility acquired in the mindshare of the car buying public and THEN proceed to unveil true F cars.
ISF, RCF, GSF and LFA failed because Lexus went from ZERO to a hundred far too quickly for the public to accept. Lexus has to capture the middle ground first (mid range performance cars/V8s like the IS500) before they can even talk about super high performance F cars. If Lexus had done what some posters on this forum wanted : unveil a 550-600 hp ISF yesterday, guess what would have happened? The ISF would cost 80-90K. NO ONE would buy it and the ISF would become an expensive white elephant collecting dust in Lexus showrooms. Journalists would praise the car to high heavens and then it would be discontinued the next year.
The considered, calculated way that Lexus has gone about doing things with the IS500 shows me that this time around, they are serious and very preplanned in wanting F to take off ---by first laying the ground with the IS500.
Of course everything comes down to how Lexus prices the IS500 FSP, that will be critical and also how the sales of the IS500 FSP is like. If the IS500 FSP sells well and most importantly captures the car enthusiast market's imagination and brings Lexus some much needed cachet, you can probably see many more F cars and F-Sport Performance cars going forwards.
03-01-21, 10:11 PM
#472
Lexus Test Driver
There was an eight year gap between the introduction of the first and last of those four cars (IS F on sale in Japan in Fall 2007 as MY'08 and GS F on sale late 2015 as MY'16). It's now thirteen and a half years since the IS F went on sale, you're really arguing that's too quick for four F models (one that was in development for more than a decade) and that's why these cars are failures?
Last edited by gengar; 03-01-21 at 10:18 PM.
03-01-21, 11:51 PM
#473
The IS500 is only going to be sold in North America. So I don't think Lexus is aiming to make money or volume, simply just use up all the UR v8 parts in the warehouse and finish off the assembly line of the UR v8.
03-02-21, 04:35 AM
#474
Unless there are pictures of these piles of v8 parts sitting in the warehouse, this idea is completely against Japanese manufacturing philosophy.
03-02-21, 08:31 AM
#475
Lexus Fanatic
iTrader: (20)
about pricing, i have a feeling anyone thinking any version of this car will be under $60K is going to be very disappointed and is likely just out of touch with new car prices.
wanna pay less? lease one.
wanna pay less? lease one.
03-02-21, 08:39 AM
#476
Super Moderator
Agreed. It could start at less than $60k, if there were a decontented version. But Lexus doesn't work that way--it will definitely have more standard features than the IS350, and that will absolutely put the starting price into the low-mid $60s.
03-02-21, 09:05 AM
#477
Lexus Champion
I still think it may base at about $60k, if they don't come fully loaded. I suspect they'll be around $65k with options like ML and a sunroof. I really think they'll try to keep the base version (again, assuming there is one) well below the RC F, which offers a base model at about $65k.
03-02-21, 11:13 AM
#478
Lexus Test Driver
I'll be shocked if Lexus tries to base price this at 60k+, but yeah as already discussed it's a completely different question as to whether any will be available with base spec (or anything close to it) - just like the IS F.
03-02-21, 11:49 AM
#479
Lexus Champion
That’s part of what made the brand such a success,
everybody remember? Superior quality at a lower price.
03-02-21, 12:15 PM
#480
Pit Crew
RCF is $67k vs. M4 for $71,800 (2021); $69k for 2020
GSF is/was $86k vs $103k for M5.
Seems Lexus will price 5-15% lower than BMW.
the IS500 falls between a M340i and an M3 so low $60k seems reasonable. Maybe a little lower depending on how the base spec is equipped. If it’s a fully loaded car, then mid $60k or max out at $70k. I’d expect it to undercut the M3 by 10 to 15%.
GSF is/was $86k vs $103k for M5.
Seems Lexus will price 5-15% lower than BMW.
the IS500 falls between a M340i and an M3 so low $60k seems reasonable. Maybe a little lower depending on how the base spec is equipped. If it’s a fully loaded car, then mid $60k or max out at $70k. I’d expect it to undercut the M3 by 10 to 15%.